quote:It's only the good guys that are uncomfortable, probably, because other guys don't worry about whether they're supposed to react or not.
*polite cough* I'm not uncomfortable. Does that mean I'm less good? I solemnly assure you that I have no intention whatsoever of cheating on my wife.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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"Wow. So, when I wear a shirt that shows cleavage, I'm advertising to all the men out there that I'm ready and willing to accept money for sex? "
Money for sex? No. Hyperbole anyone?
See the definition of provocative, above.
But the porn/prostitute culture is not at all the same as rolling up a burkha. These girls are not merely wearing less clothing because it's more comfortable. Neither are young girls vomiting and starving themselves because they are overweight. It's because society has taught them that they are sex objects, and they've bought into everything that goes along with that.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I certainly believe that they have a right to dress however they want and however is comfortable to them. But I also think they should be aware of the effect the way they dress will have on the people around them, which as far as I can tell is in most cases disgust. Just like I feel that I and other people have the right to be disgusted by the way they choose to dress. You'll notice that no where in this thread has anyone advocated that it be made illegal to show some crack. Mostly, people are just complaining that they don't like it, with other people who don't like it, or arguing about it.
As to your continued desire to connect this somehow to Afghani women in burkhas, I really can't comment anymore than I already have by saying that for me at least, it isn't an issue of morality or modesty. I've made this comparison before, but an accurate analogy to how I feel about it is someone walking around smelling really awful, not someone walking around with a low cut shirt. And yes, they certainly have a right to walk around smelling awful if that's what makes them comfortable, but that doesn't mean that I can't complain about it.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Yes please. I'll take mine with a side of rhetoric, if you dont mind.
quote: But it goes beyond rape. I know I lower my opinion of a woman if she's wearing the hooker uniform. And BTW, I've mentioned this before: I used to know a teenage hooker, and she was quite clear that she wore a uniform. Cleavage of either kind is advertising, whether you like it or not.
The sentence I quoted came DIRECTLY after you talked about hookers. Sooooo.... why wouldnt I think you were talking about advertising in the sense that hookers do?
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
You know, this issue has been a hot button with me for a long time. I grew up in a VERY conservative, religious household, with strict parents. My mom had been rebellious and promiscous as a teenager, and was raped multiple times. As such she had alot of issues with her daughters sexuality and appearance. My older sisters escaped most of this because A) they were small, not really curvy, and b) they didnt really look like her. I, however, got the full brunt of her paranoia. I was tall, curvy, looked just like her, and was alot more outgoing and aggresive than my sisters. As such, I got alot of attention from guys, starting at about 13 or 14 when I developed boobs. Right from the start, my mom did her best to squelch any effect my appearance would have on men. She didnt let me dress in any sort of revealing clothing at all, she squished my boobs into minimizer bras, she had me cut my hair in unflattering styles, and she taught me that men were lusty bastards that couldnt think of anything but sex when they saw female flesh. Now, what she taught me coincided perfectly with what my church taught me. If a man looked at a woman lustfully, then yes, the man was sinning, but it was the womans fault for flaunting her lust inducing flesh in his direction. So, women were responsible for making sure that this didnt happen. Dress modestly so that the poor men wont be unduly tempted into thinking wrong things. I totally accepted this philosphy, and hated my body for the attention it drew. Because no matter what I wore, I still got icky attention from a**holes. I learned to completely withdraw into myself, to hunch my shoulders and pretend that my breasts didnt exist. I became totally cerebreal, not being willing to use my body in any way that would draw attention to it. I dont really regret that, because it did allow me to develop a prodigious intelligence that might have been neglected if I had relied on my looks to determine how I felt about myself. But it's taken me a long time to get over the hatred of my body fostered by these ideas. I'm an adult now, 27, and I wear whatever the hell I want to. Most of my clothing is black, because I couldnt color cooridinate if my life depended on it, and most of it is in some way revealing. I dont hide my chest under layers of cloth, and I dont hide my legs under pants and long skirts. The way that I dress does actually garner me alot of attention, both negative and positive. And I'm perfectly ok with that. If a business man walking down the street chooses to be a letch and stare at my chest, that's his choice. It affects me in no way, shape, or form. It doesnt make me feel better about myself, but it doesnt make me feel worse, either. People are responsible for their own actions. My breasts showing above a red tank top are NOT an invitation to sex, regardless of what some men might like to think. I know its not, and I'm perfectly capable of enforcing that. I've had to do it more often that I like to think about. I dont put myself in situations where I'm vulnerable to attack, but thats not because of the way I dress. I wouldnt be stupid like that regardless of what I'm wearing. A woman walking down a dark alley in a trench coat is just as likely to be attacked as a woman walking down a dark alley in a revealing dress. SO, I dont walk down dark alleys, and I dont think of myself as a victim. But I'm not going to cover my body in layers of clothing, and thereby do something that doesnt feel natural to ME, out of fear.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
" Glenn Arnold, maybe they just have different standards in their generation, similar to the way your generation's standards are different from the generation before you, and probably shocked them."
I have 11 year old girls in my class who know how to dress attractively yet appropriately.
I also have 11 year old girls that wear lacy push-up bras with necklines designed to put the bra and it's contents on display, along with low rise jeans, thongs and tummy shirts.
Guess which ones plop themselves down next to boys and spend the entire period flirting, instead of doing their assignment?
Guess which ones complain that the room is too cold?
At the beach 100 years ago, women were expected to wear bloomers and crinolines with lead weights in the hem to keep them from floating upward because it was "unseemly." A girl wearing a bikini on the beach is dressed appropriately. I have nothing against that.
Women legitimately rebelled against society's dress codes that were uncomfortable, or downright unsafe. That's not what this is about. Clothing manufacturers are marketing sexualized clothing to children, bacause it makes money. It's not a matter of form following function, unless the function is to be sexually provocative.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Based on your last post, I can safely assume that you're reacting to your mother and church, rather than to anything I have to say.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Actually, I read your first post the same way. You seemed to be saying that dressing provocatively was like dressing like a hooker, and women were doing it for the same reason, whether they admitted it or not.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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You may be right, Glenn. (I may be crazy... but it just might be a lunatic you're lookin for.)
But, then again, you may be wrong. Actually, that last post was spawned in reaction to other peoples posts, not yours. I understand alot of what you are saying, and agree with some of it. You are talking about teenagers and children, a completely different breed from me. I dont take that personally. But the additude you express, that a woman showing cleavage is trolling for sex, DOES offend me.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:So I hope you'll understand why for practical purposes I consider men who think that way nonexisitant. I honestly believe that in my world, they are.
Yup, you were right. That was kinda offensive.
<-- thinks he exists and that he matters
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Neither is my father (who did not grow up religious), my brothers, my cousins, my uncles . . . shall I go on? ElJay, just because you have never had a guy tell you to your face that he is uncomfortable certainly does not mean there have not been any who were.
Of course, it is entirely possible that there have no been. As ak keeps pointing out, cultural norms vary. But absence of proof is hardly proof of absence. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Great googly-moogly. My Internet has been down for a few days, and this thread has been a lot more active than I expected. Let's see if I can successfully respond to everything I want to respond to.
quote:So you'd let you daughter go out with half her ass bared to the world,
There's an important point you're missing. I'm 25. The women I look at are within that age range that their fathers no longer have any say in how they dress. I never expressed approval for minors to dress this way. If I had a daughter who was 15, I would absolutely not let her show off her butt crack. If I had a daughter who was 25, there wouldn't be anything I could do about it in any case.
quote:because people should do what they feel like and stuff?
If you're going to argue against my points, I'll thank you to keep it to points I actually made, "and stuff".
quote:Who decided butts were sexy anyway?
Our primate ancestors. We evolved from primates who were rear-mounters, and to a male primate, a female bearing her rump is a powerful sexual signal. We're no longer predominantly rear-mounters, but the instinctive response to the rump of the female of our species is still there.
To anyone who adamantly believes that we are not primates, let it go, please. You aren't going to persuade me, and I'm not going to persuade you, and this thread is not the place for a creationism vs. evolution flamewar anyway.
quote: Are there in fact any men who find this attractive? The only men I've heard to express an opinion have been fairly strongly anti-crack.
Then you haven't been paying attention. I commented on it and expressed no anti-crack sentiments whatsoever. I like seeing butt cleavage of an attractive woman in the same way, and for the same reason, I like seeing chest cleavage of an attractive woman. It is a hint of what lies beneath the line of the clothing. I am a sensitive and subtle sort of man, but that does not mean I am ashamed to derive pleasure from seeing aspects of an attractive female form.
quote:I was actually talking about the ones who aren't @$$holes about it - the ones who notice but are really trying not to, and don't say anything.
I don't try not to notice. I simply don't get lewd about it. When I notice, I do so in a subtle way that would not let the woman notice that I was noticing. I do not stare, I do not ogle, I do not make comments or wolf-whistles, I do not drool or lick my lips, and I do not rip her clothes off her and rape her. I simply glance appreciatively and get on with my life. I am perfectly capable of appreciating a woman's beauty without making her feel cheap about it. If that makes me an a-hole, well, then, I guess I'm an a-hole.
---
Okay, that's enough trying to respond to individual posts. This is getting too long as it is. Let me just say that cleavage is cleavage. If the woman in question fits my standards of attractiveness, I am pleased to see the cleavage if it happens to be there, be it chest cleavage, butt cleavage, or toe cleavage. (Pleased, but not driven wild. I am a civilized and decent man, and I feel that the behavior many are attributing to "men" is antithetical to civilization and decency. Just because we enjoy looking does not mean we are going to take it any further than that. And it does not mean that not taking it further is any great struggle. I don't have to fight with myself to keep from raping women, thank you very much.) If, on the other hand, the woman does not fit my standards of attractiveness, then I simply don't look. It's not my business to tell her she shouldn't dress that way.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:ElJay, just because you have never had a guy tell you to your face that he is uncomfortable certainly does not mean there have not been any who were.
You know what, though? I'm made deeply uncomfortable by the presence of extremely prudish people. Seriously. I grew up with a few girls of the "can't shake hands with men and must wear skirts that conceal our ankles" variety, and normally find that sort of "modesty" extraordinarily self-centered, unsettling and off-putting. It's highly distracting, isolating, and unnatural. But while I might make the occasional joke about it, I don't make an issue out of it. I would never dream of saying, simply because I'm forced to do nothing but think of that person's excessively showy "modesty" all the time in her presence lest I inconvenience or injure her by accidentally tapping her on the shoulder, that I think they should show a little more leg.
*shrug* It doesn't particularly matter. It shouldn't matter. These things are cultural differences, and where we go wrong is in trying to draw conclusions about ethics from them.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: girls of the "can't shake hands with men and must wear skirts that conceal our ankles" variety
quote: and normally find that sort of "modesty" extraordinarily self-centered, unsettling and off-putting. It's highly distracting, isolating, and unnatural.
posted
They are cultural differences. What is modest and immodest is completely arbitrary, and it is up to every culture to decide for itself. Some cultures feel there is nothing at all immodest about walking around completely naked, and some cultures feel that if a woman exposes her face, she is being immodest and is, as someone else worded it earlier, a "skank". (Not to mention a sinner.)
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hey, like I said, it's a cultural difference in perception. You may well find that generalization as offensive as, say, the claim that women who show off their panties are sluts who shouldn't be surprised if they're raped.
And my point, of course, is that it's no more accurate. "Hey, look how modest I am!" is almost certainly NOT the message you mean to be sending; that it's the message I'm probably GETTING from you is MY fault, not yours, and you shouldn't be expected to dress differently to appease my weird hangups.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Of all the ways that kids choose to express themselves, clothing choice is probably the least worrisome to me simply because it is not permanent, and, when it matters, parents can exert some influence while still allowing room for personal choice.
skillery... skank? Just for wearing clothing that you don't approve of? You'd better not go to a beach. Or Europe. Or a beach in Europe.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
m_p_h, I am particularly sorry that I did not word that last part differently. I meant to make it clear that I believe that men who thought that way are nonexistant in my off-line life.
As I said, I couldn't remember if PSI was LDS or not, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying she is religiously conservative. rivka, I am aware you are not LDS. As far as I am aware, you have never brought this topic up, although you have agreed with people after it came up. My statement was "every time I can remember it coming up on Hatrack, it's been a woman who is very active in a conservative religion who has brought it up."
rivka, I said that I believe that men who feel that way exist. I stand by my statement that I don't believe I encounter any in my day-to-day life. I am aware that is not proof of absence -- I was very careful to phrase everything I said as belief, not fact. But as I have said, I do not dress particularly provocatively as a rule, certainly not by the standards we have been discussing in this thread. I dress up to go dancing every now and then, but none of my male friends who I was not dating have seen me like that. None. My normal attire would fit the LDS version of modesty except that I occasionally wear tops that show my shoulders and some of my skirts end just above the knee instead of just below. I do not think that any man I have talked to has kept silent because he didn't want to tell me my clothing offended him.
I went out for a drink after dinner with a friend (conservative Republican, married, Catholic.) I was telling him about this conversation, and his reaction was "You're kidding, right?" It took me over five minutes to convince him that this was a serious topic being discussed here. He is a lifetime member of the NRA, volunteered for our Republican Senator's last campaign, and is by far the most conservative person I know off-line. If there are men in my city who feel disrespected by women dressing immodestly, I do not believe that I know any of them personally.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:your post did feel to me to be seriously trying to call me on facts that I did not say.
There seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread. To the degree that my response was colored by all the responses to this thread that I did not post, I apologize.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
LJ -- why don't you just leave it at "I don't know, IRL, anybody that I know feels that way", instead of in a way that implies that such people probably don't even exist at all where you live?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: and normally find that sort of "modesty" extraordinarily self-centered, unsettling and off-putting. It's highly distracting, isolating, and unnatural.
*grimace* *groan* *mutter*
I agree with Tom.
I guess all you people who are 'overly' modest should be concerned about your effect on others, too.
Of course, now that the shoe is on the other foot, I doubt that this line of logic will have any more effect on you than it does on those that you used it on.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:I'm made deeply uncomfortable by the presence of extremely prudish people. Seriously. I grew up with a few girls of the "can't shake hands with men and must wear skirts that conceal our ankles" variety, and normally find that sort of "modesty" extraordinarily self-centered, unsettling and off-putting. It's highly distracting, isolating, and unnatural.
Tom, that's somewhat of a straw man. Nobody here has been advocating that sort of modesty.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
m_p_h -- "I do not believe that I know any of them personally" was still too strongly stated? What I don't like about your phrasing is that it implies that some of the people I know personally IRL may feel that way and I don't know it. I do not think that that is true.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Actually, there are people on this thread who practice that sort of modesty.
And neither is it a straw man: no one on this thread is advocating that women go around with their butt crack showing; they're merely saying that it's not responsible to make moral conclusions based on their decision to do so, any more than it would be responsible to conclude that all modest people are self-righteous prudes.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
LJ -- the part you quoted isn't the part I was calling attention to, it's "If there are men in my city".
So, are you saying that you feel pretty confident that every man you know, you know well enough to be able to percieve his views on this subject?
quote:no one on this thread is advocating that women go around with their butt crack showing
If it hasn't been advocated, it's beeb by a narrow margin. You yourself have expressed your approval of it if you like the woman's hips.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:I'm not uncomfortable. Does that mean I'm less good? I solemnly assure you that I have no intention whatsoever of cheating on my wife.
Tom, it was specifically my intention not to offend. In case I wasn't clear, I meant that the only guys who are uncomfortable are the ones who are trying not to look or react, but having a hard time with it. I am aware that some men just don't have a hard time with it at all. Lucky them. I didn't mean that they were any less good because it didn't bother them; in fact, that's probably what the uncomfortable guys wish they could be like.
And ElJay, since you asked, I am LDS. And I agree about the culture thing - I've known men who were bothered by provocative dress, men who encouraged it, and men who didn't seem to care. Incidentally, my husband was also taken by surprise that we would be having such a long debate about this topic. But in the opposite way.
BTW, you don't think that any man you have talked to has kept silent because he didn't want to tell you your clothing offended him. But if your normal clothing fits the LDS definition of modesty, you never would, would you? And the type of men who are uncomfortable don't usually say anything about it. It's hard to know what they're thinking about it, which is what they want!
I'm really starting to get dizzy going round and round. That's all for me, folks.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I didn't mean that they were any less good because it didn't bother them; in fact, that's probably what the uncomfortable guys wish they could be like.
It has long been my belief that a focus -- either positive or negative -- on "modesty" produces prurience, because it focuses the mind on desire either way. IMO, people should find their own comfort level, precisely because being uncomfortable is, in the long run, what produces sin. I find Sartre a nice starting point for this approach.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I guess all you people who are 'overly' modest should be concerned about your effect on others, too.
Of course, now that the shoe is on the other foot, I doubt that this line of logic will have any more effect on you than it does on those that you used it on.
Because it would be such a crappy world if people made an effort to take other people into consideration when making decisions. </sarcasm>
Of course, it can't be done perfectly. And no one's sensibilities will be totally accomodated.
But the mere acknowledgement that people's actions affect others and the mere consideration of those effects is helpful.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:being uncomfortable is, in the long run, what produces sin
What is your definition of sin in this case, Tom? From what you just said, I assume that it must be very different from any standard defninition I can bring to mind.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
As I'm unconvinced of the existence of an absolute morality or moral arbiter, I'm using "sin" here to mean the violation of personal ethical codes in a way that causes emotional distress to the violator. (Note that "sin" in this case is perceived sin, therefore, and not any situation of absolute harm or "evil.") As many of these codes don't actually matter in the least except to the violator, more restrictive codes are guaranteed to produce distress without benefit -- and since the breaking of an ethical code is often regarded as an irredeemable infraction, it's not inconceivable that the existence of minor, easily-broken dogmatic rules ultimately encourages, in practice, the breaking of more important rules (as part of an "in for a penny, in for a pound" effect.) It's not good for someone to feel like he's "sinning in his heart" every time he goes for a walk in the middle of summer.
The fewer rules, the better -- and the healthier. Ethical restrictions, especially ones which are largely arbitrary or obviously subcultural, are often only good at provoking guilt and neurosis.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
m_p_h, I do not see that part of the statement as implying such people don't exist. I see it as allowing for the possibility either way, since I don't know.
The "do not believe" part was because I can't say with 100% certainty that no man I know feels that way. I do not believe any of them do. I do not feel confident that I know them all well enough to percieve their views on the subject, but I do feel confident that I can tell that they are not offended by provocatively dressed women. I make this judgement call based on jokes they have told, times they have flirted with me, the way I have seen them look at other women. The vast majority of my friends are people I have met at church or at work. I am talking about the men I know from church and work, the regular staff at the coffee shop and bar that I frequent, and my neighbors. I have never seen any indication at all that any of them have a problem with provocatively dressed women. The conversations I have had with male friends on the topic of female dress -- and there have been many, I tend to have more male friends than female ones, and we talk about the women they are interested in and my luck in my dating life -- the men have decidedly not been uncomfortable with provocative female dress. Their attitudes have mostly been similar to Verily's, as described in this thread. I am not saying that since no one has told me they are offended that they must not be. I am saying that from words and actions I can tell that either they are not offended or they are putting on one heck of an act over a long period of time for no discernable reason.
JennaDean, same answer. Obviously, if you know men who do feel that way, the subject must have come up. Trust me when I say that the subject of women's dress has come up with the men I know as well. You've said both that if the way I dressed made men uncomfortable they wouldn't tell me because they didn't want to be rude, and that if the way I dress doesn't make men uncomfortable they wouldn't tell me because it wouldn't come up. If that was the case, you wouldn't know how the men you are aquainted with feel, either.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Actually, there are people on this thread who practice that sort of modesty.
I guess you mean me. My tznius clothing offends you. Tough luck. I don't choose my manner of dress for your benefit. And I never said that other people should follow my example. Advocating aggressive modesty? I never said that. I dress in the way that is appropriate and suitable for me and my religious beliefs. What other people do is their own business, and, I think if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I have not judged anyone on their level of modesty.
quote:And neither is it a straw man: no one on this thread is advocating that women go around with their butt crack showing; they're merely saying that it's not responsible to make moral conclusions based on their decision to do so, any more than it would be responsible to conclude that all modest people are self-righteous prudes.
I don't care if other men and women want to show their buttocks. I never said that they should or shouldn't, just that I don't. Self-righteous prude? I don't see myself that way. And I'm offended that you equate my manner of dress with self-centeredness, self-righteousness, and prudishness.
It is uncalled for, and unfair.
Yeah, and what rivka said.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: The fewer rules, the better -- and the healthier.
Says you. Go ahead and be a noble savage -- I'm sure you and your well-adjusted anachist friends will have a hoot laughing at those neurotic wretches following their religious teachings.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Say, maybe we should all just keep our personal prejudices about clothing to ourselves and just live and let live. Maybe that would be best for all concerned, no? Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:My tznius clothing offends you. Tough luck. I don't choose my manner of dress for your benefit.
Yes. I am entirely aware of that fact. You have every right to be offended that I draw a conclusion from your dress which is inaccurate and does not reflect your intention in dressing the way you do; moreover, it would be silly and selfish of me to insist that you keep my comfort in mind when dressing in a manner you find appropriate and comfortable.
As I respect you enormously, it's good to hear that we're in agreement.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "Hey, look how modest I am!" is almost certainly NOT the message you mean to be sending; that it's the message I'm probably GETTING from you is MY fault, not yours, and you shouldn't be expected to dress differently to appease my weird hangups.
Hey! Tom and I agree. He DOES have weird hang-ups.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
We might agree on even more than you think. I went back and forth on whether or not I should hyphenate "hang-ups." Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Hey Tom! Does this make you feel more comfortable? What? You won't click on my link? What are you? Chicken?Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: We might agree on even more than you think. I went back and forth on whether or not I should hyphenate "hang-ups."
And ultimately, you chose wrong. Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
*laugh* Like I said, it all comes down to cultural differences. I decided not to let the decision cause me any anguish.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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