posted
Okay, I came back because I thought of a good example. I have not talked with my male boss specifically about how he feels about appropriate women's clothing. I have talked to him about taking his 17 year old daughter to get her navel pierced, and how he thought it was fun and looks cute. Also about how he gets grumpy when he has to remind people about the office dress code, because he thinks it's stupid. From these things, I think I can infer that he does not feel disrespected by women wearing provocative clothing, even though we have not talked about the possibility. Fair?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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i am very against sexualized clothing on children. i am highly frustrated by people that let their eight year old girls wear shorts that say things like SEXY and FOX on the butt. so where do you draw the line age wise? i guess for me its the same place i put the sex line - when you are old enough to emotionally handle a sexual relationship and should you or your partner become pregnant, you could handle having a baby. this is why i am against high school sex and high school provocative dress - our society is not structured so sixteen year olds can on average support children successfully. Were this the Trobiand Islands i would say shake shake shake away, sister.
i did have a boy tell me he was embarrassed by my butt crack once. but he asked really nicely and was sincere, so i bent over with more caution the next time. he just felt bad looking at me that way and was nice about it, and so i respected his feelings. *shrug* nothing wrong with that.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Am I advocating it? Well, not as such. I would not recommend making the display to a woman who was not doing so already.
But I enjoy it when I see it, and I'm curious how people are making the conclusion that it is in some way worse than chest cleavage.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
It's not possible for American women to wear shorts on the streets of Kuwait (a very hot country) today without being attacked. Kuwait is one of the more open and liberal Arab societies. I feel this is a deplorable situation, and one that should be taken as seriously as our soldiers being attacked in Iraq.
There are a number of reasons why I feel this is the exact same issue we are discussing.
1. It only applies to women. While there have been some token mentions of men's clothing, this thread has been almost totally focused on girls and women. In Kuwait the same thing is true. Nobody pays any attention to the situation when the genders are reversed.
2. In very recent history in our culture (when I was a girl), girls were considerably hampered in the activities in which they could participate because of restrictive dress codes. Now it's a bit less true here but not exactly a non-issue. All we can say is that the US is the least oppressive country for women.
3. Everyone has different standards, but some people feel their particular standards should apply to everyone, not just themselves. This is true within our society and across society lines (Kuwait -> US). The problems of the women being attacked or hooted at are dismissed as not important, they should have known better than to dress that way, they were asking for it, etc.
Someone please explain to me how this is not the same issue as women struggle with in Afhanistan, Kuwait, or many other cultures today?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I'm sorry that I didn't read the previous pages, so if someone else has already said this, feel free to completely ignore me.
Regarding butt-cleavage, there was a 20 year old that my husband hired, who continually wore pants so low and shirts so short that that she was always displaying her crack. I and the other women in the office considered it extraordinarily tacky and just ick! The men, including my estranged husband, ate it up and refused to ask her to wear more appropriate clothing.
Maybe I'm admitting to an old-fashioned prudishness, but I don't want to see a woman's crack anymore than I want to see a plumber's crack.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a nice rearend as much as the next person; it's the exposed crack that just screams TMI to me.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:but I don't want to see a woman's crack anymore than I want to see a plumber's crack.
See, and I don't want to see a man's crack. I don't want to see a man's anything. Yet I, a straight man, like seeing a woman's crack. How odd.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
though i love butts and civil rights and personal expression, etc etc - i do agree with ladydove that it is in poor taste. not utterly reprehensible, but not classy.
and i do think butt cleavage is different than chest cleavage. the butt crack more directly leads to the place where you MAKE babies while chest cleavage just leads to where you feed them Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Whereas I view buttcracks as the place where toxic waste exits the body, and therefore I want to be as far away from it as possible with as much protecting me from such exposure. And that includes - and no, I can think of no delicate way of expressing this so deal - not being exposed in any way to remnants of any such toxic waste as may have been left behind.
I'm equal opportunity prude - don't wanna see male or female butt cracks, young or old, firm or sagging.
As for Tatiana's post, that somewhat applies in Sri Lanka, but I suspect not to anything close to that extreme. Women are expected to be covered - no cleavage, no shoulders, no knees, midriff only with saris. Shorts are generally unacceptable and pants on women are uncommon at best and when worn, are done so only by those in their twenties or younger. Even modest one-piece swimming suits (for women, because of course, men can get away with anything here) as known in North America is not considered appropriate to wear at public beaches and can only be worn at private beaches or private swimming pools - usually those owned & operated by large international hotel chains.
Men can stand at the side of the road naked. No, this isn't an exaggeration. I've seen them, usually before or after taking a swim in the watering hole. Nice.
Foreign women are automatically assumed to be loose (thanks, Hollywood), and anything other than completely covered up is interpreted as asking for it. I've had some problems with sexual harrassment here, only when I'm by myself, and despite always being covered up to Sri Lankan standards of acceptance.
Foreign women, from what I've been told, will be on the receiving end of much more sexual assault and sexual harrassment than locals if they're not dressed "properly", and the more they show, the worse it gets. However, local women tell me that sexual assault and sexual harrassment are rampant here anyway.
So here, it's not just what you wear, it's also what color your skin is. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by porcelain girl: i am highly frustrated by people that let their eight year old girls wear shorts that say things like SEXY and FOX on the butt.
Aha! You DO have a shift key on your keyboard! Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I think it's a reasonable thing to say about your boss.
However, I doubt that you've had a chance to learn that much about every man you know.
And I'm telling you I have. Not that I think I have, but that every man I can think of IRL that I know well enough to know their name, I can think of a similar example, although maybe not as easy to describe.
I've worked in the same office for 7 years, lived in the same house for 8, and went to the same church for 8. My freinds and casual aquaintences, for the most part, have been so for a long time. It's given me plenty of time to notice how the men respond to women, you know? I'm not making this claim about the guy who carried out my groceries at the supermarket last weekend, but I am making it about the guy who's sold me coffee at least three times a week for the last two years.
Could I be wrong? Sure. I don't think I'm infallible. But like I've said each time I've made this statement, I don't believe I'm wrong. And I'm not going to temper that statement because you think it's unlikely. I am an unmarried sexually active woman. You bet I pay attention to the way the men I encounter talk about and react to women. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
My problem with the revealing clothes is that the only reason to dress provocatively is to provoke a response from the opposite sex. It's not comfortable, it's not cheap (it costs a lot of money to look this cheap), and it usually involves a lot of hassle from the adults in your life.
Now this in no way implies that I think girls who dress like this are asking to be raped, or that if that happens they deserve it. But if it does happen, I don't think it's unrealistic to put partial blame on the clothing.
And while the way you dress doesn't define who you are as a person, it does certainly at least reflect something about your beliefs in most cases. For example, if I met a girl who dressed in ankle length skirts, wore no makeup, and had really long hair I would be surprised if I found out she was a slut (sorry if that language is appropriate). On the other hand, if I met a girl with 3 different kinds of cleavage showing, makeup that looked like it'd been applied with a trowel, and a belly shirt that said "Porn Star", I would be surprised if I found out that she was a prude.
Just to further illustrate some things that I'm sure have already been said.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
"But if it does happen, I don't think it's unrealistic to put partial blame on the clothing."
See, I do! There is absolutely no blame that resides anywhere outside the rapist himself. There is never any excuse for rape.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:For example, if I met a girl who dressed in ankle length skirts, wore no makeup, and had really long hair I would be surprised if I found out she was a slut (sorry if that language is appropriate).
posted
I have a personal preference for making Tom Davidson uncomfortable (*grin), but I certainly understand and support Tatiana and ElJay's arguments.
My own level of discomfort with young women who dress in revealing ways is that I read a neediness into it. This has a lot to do with my own history and relationship to my past, I suspect, and likely quite little to do with the actual thoughts, feelings, and intent of the young women in question.
But that's me and my issue. I'm not generalizing here.
Edited to add: And I certainly agree with Tom about the self-centered focus of attention on modesty and prurience. I have a highly developed sense of prurience, which is why I dress in ankle-length skirts, headscarves, and long hair. The lack of makeup is just to underscore my seedy side. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I don't believe the assertion that there is a causal or even correlative relationship between attire and rapes. It has been implied in this thread a number of times by various people, each time with no evidence to support it. I see no reason to take the truth of the statement as a given just because it sounds reasonable.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
But without any data one way or the other, doesn't it make sense to back the reasonable assertion?
I think it's undeniable that showing flesh and being touchy-feely heightens your chances of being raped.
And CT, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the neediness thing. When I see girls who dress like that to get attention (especially young girls), that to me screams "Low self-esteem!".
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Twink, I disagree. But, I don't know that there's been any research done on the matter, so it remains firmly in the realm of my opinion, I understand that.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:For example, if I met a girl who dressed in ankle length skirts, wore no makeup, and had really long hair I would be surprised if I found out she was a slut (sorry if that language is appropriate).
This makes me giggle, because all of these apply to me (well, not REALLY long hair anymore, but working on it...), and I'm as frankly fond of sex as a person can be.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
JT, I have an even more reasonable assertion:
Availability, not attire, is the obvious selection criterion for a rapist. And in fact all of the anecdotal evidence supplied to us in this thread supports me when I say that if a guy is going to approach or accost a girl, how she is dressed has nothing to do with it.
Furthermore, when we're talking about assigning blame in something as horrific as rape, I think you need a lot more than "it sounds reasonable" before you lay any blame whatsoever at the feet of the victim.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: And CT, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the neediness thing. When I see girls who dress like that to get attention (especially young girls), that to me screams "Low self-esteem!".
Not that I don't appreciate the support, but I'll just reiterate:
quote:This has a lot to do with my own history and relationship to my past, I suspect, and likely quite little to do with the actual thoughts, feelings, and intent of the young women in question.
That is, maybe it is or isn't a sign of neediness. But even if it is, why should neediness or a blatant request for attention make me so uncomfortable?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Availability, not attire, is the obvious selection criterion for a rapist. And in fact all of the anecdotal evidence supplied to us in this thread supports me when I say that if a guy is going to approach or accost a girl, how she is dressed has nothing to do with it.
I think you're disregarding something that makes up the majority of rape cases -- date rape.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Interesting fairly recent review. Bolding is added by me.
quote:Rickert VI, Wiemann CM. "Date rape among adolescents and young adults." Journal of Pediatric and Adolescent Gynecolgy. 1998 Nov;11(4):167-75.
[Abstract:] BACKGROUND: Adolescents and young adults are four times more likely to be victims of sexual assault than women in all other age groups. In the vast majority of these cases, the perpetrator is an acquaintance of the victim. Date rape is a subset of acquaintance rape where nonconsensual sex occurs between two people who are in a romantic relationship. METHODS: We conducted a MEDLINE and Current Concepts search for articles relating to date rape and then systematically reviewed all relevant articles. RESULTS: Lifetime prevalence of date or acquaintance rape ranges from 13% to 27% among college-age women and 20% to a high of 68% among adolescents. Demographic characteristics that increase vulnerability to date rape include younger age at first date, early sexual activity, earlier age of menarche, a past history of sexual abuse or prior sexual victimization, and being more accepting of rape myths and violence toward women. Other risk factors include date-specific behaviors such as who initiated, who paid expenses, who drove, date location and activity, as well as the use of alcohol or illicit drugs such as flunitrazepam (Rohypnol). Alcohol use that occurs within the context of the date can lead to: the misinterpretation of friendly cues as sexual invitations, diminished coping responses, and the female's inability to ward off a potential attack. CONCLUSIONS: Longitudinal research designs are needed to further our understanding of sexual violence among adolescents and young adults and the most effective ways to eliminate it. Understanding and comparing research findings would be easier if consensus regarding the definitions of date rape, sexual aggression, and sexual assault was obtained. Finally, primary and secondary date and acquaintance rape prevention programs must be developed and systematically evaluated.
posted
I wouldn't lay ANY blame on at the feet of the victim. It's like saying a car accident is your fault, just because you drive a particular type of car. But if something is reasonable, I think it should be disproved rather than proved.
Oh, and what JT said. There are several different types of rape, and I imagine each one (and each perpetrator) to have different selection criteria.
Posts: 880 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Megan, It made me giggle too. I wear ankle length skirts because I like the swishyness, long hair because I don't want to spend the time/money to get it cut regularly and no makeup because I don't want to get up earlier in the morning to spend time painting my face.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I don't see how you're qualified to make that judgement. No offense, as I'm sure he'd agree with you. But I'd rather hear it from twink.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:And I'm telling you I have. Not that I think I have, but that every man I can think of IRL that I know well enough to know their name, I can think of a similar example, although maybe not as easy to describe.
OK. You obviously know the people in your sphere much better than I know the people in my sphere.
*tries to wrap head around it*
The level of familiarity you have with the people around you is one that I honestly never considered. I didn't think that it happened anymore outside of the small village life.
I myself have dozens of people who I know from work or church, but whom I know very little. I see them infrequently, and even more infrequently in a social setting.
Even for the vast majority of people that I know very well, I cannot think of a single thing that would imply to me their feelings on this subject.
I guess what I'm saying is that you and I apparently have different lives.
Oh, I'm also apologizing if I was too much of a donkey.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Many years ago, a man broke into my apartment and tried to rape me (I fought him off -- he was injured and I was left without a scratch, physically). I was wearing a long skirt, a tee shirt with a blouse over it, and a headscarf. I was questioning myself about what I did, how I was to blame for the attack. Of course, intellectually, I understood that this was not my fault. The one to blame was the evildoer. But some other, less rational part of me wanted to put the blame on me. That particular skirt was never worn again. It languished in the closet, but I could never bear to wear the "rape skirt". It eventually got thrown away. The tee shirt and head scarf and blouse suddenly became so unappealing that they got demoted to dustrag status.
Had I been wearing a halter top and Daisy Duke shorts, it still wouldn't have been my fault -- the blame would remain on the evildoer. But I would have had even more tormenting questions nagging me, and self-reproach, self-recrimination from that irrational part of my mind that breeds anxiety.
Women can wear whatever they please, whatever they deem appropriate. But, I believe, if something bad happens while you are dressed provocatively, besides the repercussions of the bad thing, you may be more prone to self-doubt and self-blame, than if you had been dressed conservatively.
Please don't berate me for this. It is based purely on my own experiences and feelings. Of course, people are different, and their responses to bad things differ. But this is what it was like for me.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:But, I believe, if something bad happens while you are dressed provocatively, besides the repercussions of the bad thing, you may be more prone to self-doubt and self-blame, than if you had been dressed conservatively.
This is certainly possible. I have a friend who, following a rape, never wore makeup again, and who wore basically nothing but sweatshirts for the next three years. She sought to make herself invisible, believing that by making herself attractive enough to stand out in a crowd (and she wasn't wearing anything skimpy or slutty when it happened; she was just dressed up) she had caught the attention of the rapist.
I maintain that it is not the fault of her taste in clothes, and would prefer to live in a world where the desire to dress up for an evening with the orchestra does not need to be balanced against the possibility of rape.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yeah, Tante, I'm glad you were strong enough to fight him off.
Now that's a scenario where I think it's clear that nothing was done to invite that. It doesn't bear on the discussion about clothing at all. That guy was purely a predator.
But I still think that in a social situation, a party or whatever, especially if alcohol is involved, that a combination of slutty dress and flirting may take a girl somewhere she doesn't want to go. It doesn't make rape all right, nor does it shift the blame from the guy to girl -- the aggressor is always responsible for his actions.
The thing that I think a lot of girls don't realize is that when they dress to get attention they have no say over what kind of attention they get. Now, of course, I'm not saying that revealing clothes == invitation to rape. And maybe there's no connection between the two. But maybe there is.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think the problem here is that we appear to be equating the desire to get attention with the possibility of rape. By the same token, choosing to travel on our nation's highways increases your risk of being struck by a drunk driver and killed.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Even for the vast majority of people that I know very well, I cannot think of a single thing that would imply to me their feelings on this subject.
Of course, if they have similar feelings to mine, I could know them for decades, and unless we discussed it, I could still have nothing to go on. As long as the person isn't tacky enough to disparage others because of what they are wearing, there would be no data to go on.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
No, I think it's more like saying that choosing to drive on bald tires increases your chances of being in an accident.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
In the various seminars I have heard about rape prevention, one of the biggest things mentioned is always that you should walk and act confidently. That it is the person with their head down, shoulders hunched, acting unsure of themselves, that is more at target for predatory behavior (not just rape but other violent crime as well).
Now since it was said in the context of several campus seminars directed at women that I attended over the years, I believed it at the time. But now I'm questioning. Is there any actual data on that subject?
If so, Tom's friend attempting to be invisible, would put herself at even greater risk for the situation to repeat itself.
On the other hand, someone like Sara, even if she dresses for "full coverage", carries herself with confidence, boldness and grace. In her case, if someone interpreted her manner of dress as a show of timidity that made her vulnerable, they would be dead wrong. In fact they'd probably be dead before they'd have time to be surprised about it.
posted
I live in Los Angeles, CA - actually just a mile or two away from Hollywood. I currently work in a office building on Santa Monica Blvd, and the majority of my coworkers are very, very attractive women under 30. Even in "business casual" attire, they show lot's of clevage, wear 4 inch heels, and dress to show their (admittedly) awesome bodies. And all that says about them is "wow, they are pretty trendy."
I am so sick of some of my friends, and some of society, that think just because a girl dresses in modern (ie-provactive) attire they are begging to be oggled at, commented on or groped. There are clubs all around me, and everyone one in them is dressing to impress. Just because some girl in a club is getting down and dirty with her girlfriends (and showing all her goods) doesn't mean jack crap anymore (at least where I am.)
Sorry to rant, just makes me a little ticked that guys can dress however they want to (for the most part) and no one class them easy. Double standard needs to end.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:No, I think it's more like saying that choosing to drive on bald tires increases your chances of being in an accident.
No, see, it's exactly NOT like that. I chose my analogy very carefully. Because choosing to drive on bald tires impairs your own ability to drive, whereas wearing revealing clothing does not impair your own moral judgement.
Your analogy works for drinking, but not for dress.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: OK. You obviously know the people in your sphere much better than I know the people in my sphere.
*tries to wrap head around it*
The level of familiarity you have with the people around you is one that I honestly never considered. I didn't think that it happened anymore outside of the small village life.
I think part of it may be a difference in what is considered acceptable in casual conversation between my life and yours. But also, while I have very few real, close friends, most people I meet quickly become friendly with me. Something about me makes people comfortable, and usually talkative. *shrug* Sometimes too much so.
quote: Oh, I'm also apologizing if I was too much of a donkey.
I think we're even. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't exist, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that I was either lying or stupid. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tante, I'm sorry you had to deal with that, and glad you were able to fight him off and to at least intellectually know it wasn't your fault. I don't think I would have even waited as you did to get rid of the clothes I was wearing if I had been in a similar situation. . . If the police didn't need them as evidence, I would have burned them. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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