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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Thing About Spoiled Brats. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: The Thing About Spoiled Brats.
LeoJ
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Well, seems like we are both putting words in eachothers mouth.
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pH
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I just don't see the purpose of bringing up that monetary problems can destroy families.

On top of that, the fact that one has money does not necessarily mean that one does not have monetary problems.

-pH

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LeoJ
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Ofcourse you have monetary problems, your cracking your head because you want more, its natural ofcourse.

But then aside from not having money, a broken family and pretty much all the things that not having money brings, as not enough food, the heat got cut off, electricity still runs luckily, know what im saying?

But then theres always people less afortunate than us, thats why we have to be grateful for what we have. (not saying your not eh)

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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by LeoJ:
Ofcourse you have monetary problems, your cracking your head because you want more, its natural ofcourse.

This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about.

"Monetary problems" do not HAVE to be the need for more money, you know.

-pH

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LeoJ
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People always want more, or want what they dont have.

I dont know where you want to go, but ok.

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prolixshore
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Money doesn't buy happiness, but it certainly can relieve stress.

Sure, you can be pretty happy in your life and not have money (my parents), but if you had enough money (not saying being wealthy here) that you could make it from paycheck to paycheck without having to worry about running out of food cash three days early, it sure simplifies things.

I think that at a certain point, however, having MORE money ceases to substantially improve life. If you make 200,000 dollars a year and get a raise to 250,000 dollars a year, you will be happy about it, but does your overall life satisfaction really raise that much? If you are a billionaire and you make another billion, does it really have any effect?

Because of my background and that of my parents, I can't help but respect those who struggled from poor circumstances to become successful, simply because too often they don't. This doesn't mean that rich kids didn't work hard to get through school. Who knows what kind of adversity they may have faced. It is just easier to see what hardships befell a guy with a single mother living in poverty than a guy with two wealthy parents.

I never had money, but I wouldn't consider my family poor, either (at least not during my lifetime, before that yes), yet sometimes my acheivements have been held up as less than others because I am naturally more intelligent than some people. If I am on the Dean's list, and so is a girl who really studied and worked hard every day, people give more credit to the girl. Is that fair? Maybe. She worked harder than me. I see relatively little difference between respecting the girl who studies for her grades over the guy who never opened the book and got an A, and respecting the guy who worked full time to put himself through college over the guy who had a trust fund that paid for it so he could screw off in his free time. Either way, you were born with your advantages and disadvantages and you make the best of them.

--ApostleRadio

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Katarain
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Money doesn't buy happiness?

I really hate that phrase, because while it's technically true, money sure does help! There's a lot to be said for having enough money, to do things like pay your bills, eat, and have a little money and time left over for fun once in a while. No, I don't buy into the sentiment that makes wanting money somehow a bad thing, like you're just buying into the whole consumerist culture. Money might not buy happiness, but having it drastically reduces the things you have to be unhappy and stressed about, and whether or not you're happy in other areas of your life really doesn't change whether you're rich, poor, or in between.

Sorry your parents disappointed you, pH. I will admit that it's hard to be sympathetic, but you're right, they shouldn't have promised you something that they couldn't or wouldn't deliver. Do you know why they changed their minds? Maybe if you understood why, it would help you deal with it. In any case, I'm sure you know they won't support you forever--which is probably why you're spending time on those internships. Those should really help you get a good job, and then you can buy your own BMW. And I bet it will be much sweeter if you can really call it your own.

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pH
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Dude, I never said that MY parents promised me a BMW. I was using the BMW thing from Blayne's Trustifarianism thread.

I already have a car.

-pH

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Rakeesh
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I think you'll find that if you asked around, particularly if you ask around amongst people who have lived both, you'd realize something I believe already.

You'd see that the set of problems that comes with having lots of money and barely making it are much like the difference between the set of problems that comes with being pretty and being ugly. Neither set of problems, in and of itself, is enough to ruin or ensure a life's happiness. Neither set of circumstances are without problems. Neither set are the most important aspects of life.

But, y'know, they're each pretty darn important to what kind of life you will have, and in each case there's one set that sucks a whole lot more than the other. Guess which set you have? So yes, despite having money, your life can indeed be pretty crappy sometimes, and not just crappy in a shallow way, either.

But since money plays such an important role in the lives of people-I'm assuming you've heard the saying, "Money isn't important, only the lack of it,"?-maybe you shouldn't expect such instant empathy from those who lack money, and cut them a little slack. Because, y'know, it could be a lot worse.

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pH
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I'm not expecting empathy.

I'm expecting to be treated like a human being.

I really don't think that's too much to ask.

-pH

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TomDavidson
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While money does not buy happiness, money is one of the easiest ways to remove many obstacles to happiness.
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Ben
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Pearce, I like you. I think you are a nice girl. Hell we had a limited time on our trip a few years back and we spent an entire afternoon with you. I think you are rad. I never felt that you were a spoiled rich brat...until reading this thread. Your statement above, about expecting to be treated like a human being, doesn't seem to apply on hatrack.

Maybe I am not reading the right threads, but I have never seen any mistreatment of you based on your financial situation. I wasn't even aware of it.

So if you are tired of being mistreated in real life, than address the people who are giving you trouble with it. All I feel this thread has done was point out that you ARE financially secure to the point where one might call you rich, or well off at least. This thread seems to be creating an issue where none was before.


that is all...

[ March 30, 2006, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]

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El JT de Spang
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I've been both flat broke and solid middle-class, and I've noticed no correlation between my income and happiness.
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Tatiana
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Actually, we're all ridiculously wealthy by world standards. Unless someone here is accessing the internet from their subsistence-farming village in Africa where one of those satellite internet stations has been recently installed...?

I just read that the per capita gross domestic product of people in the U.S. is something like $25,000, while for most of the world's population it's well under $1000. None of us should ever feel jealous or resentful of people who have more, for we are all vastly wealthy by world standards.

Also by standards of history, it's interesting to compare ourselves to the Egyptian Pharoahs or the Roman Emperors, to the people with the most wealth and privilege of almost any time in history, like King Arthur (or the kings his legend is modeled after), Queen Elizbeth I of England, etc. all of whom lacked many of the luxuries available to the poorest person in western countries today. For instance, access to clean, lead-free water, antibiotics at the free clinic, books from the public library, textiles woven of marvelous fabrics with outstanding properties of warmth, softness, and color, indoor plumbing, access to baths, and dozens of other marvels, not to mention simple civilization. My nieces aren't going to murder me to get my inheritance, for instance, something that the aforesaid kings could certainly not count upon. [Smile]

Those people, looking at us, would laugh to see us whine about our lot. They'd rightly think we're a bunch of softies. [Smile]

So I guess what I'm saying is that if I ever feel the urge to whine about anything at all, then I should probably listen to others' whines with sympathy, and not dismiss them as having everything handed to them as opposed to my own situation in which I .... also had vast privileges which most of the humans in time and space don't and didn't share.

[ March 30, 2006, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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prolixshore
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Hatrack is time warping.
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pH
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Ben, I wasn't referring to Hatrack in the least.

If anything, as I said, it was a stress-induced rant brought on by the impending GMAT, Blayne's thread, and a few other, much more minor things. I didn't start this thread to take issue with anyone on Hatrack in particular; if I was responding to anything here, like I said, it was the "Trustifarianism" thing. That's all. [Smile]

-pH

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mr_porteiro_head
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If somebody is tired of dealing with the problems that come with too much money, it is very easy for them to change their situation. If they don't, then it's because they've chosen to put up with the problems wither money is causing them.
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camus
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It's easy to take things for granted, that much most everyone would agree to. However, what is sometimes lost is that people of all circumstances take something for granted, whether it be financial support, intelligence, physical attributes, good health, or even life itself. A person complaining about someone else being given financial support could just as well direct the complaint inward at himself for having been born in an affluent country.

Complaining about another person's circumstances is usually done when a person thinks he would be happier if his own circumstances were different, so itís merely a reflection of discontentment over one's own choices in life. After all, we've pretty much established that happiness or contentment is not dependent on circumstances themselves, but rather, our attitude toward those circumstances and how we deal with them. So why complain about someone else if you're already happy with your own life?

So, what about the person that complains about the unfulfilled promise of a BMW? Is that person taking for granted the financial situation that many other people don't enjoy? Well, yes, but in the same way that a child that laments over his father's broken promise to attend his first baseball game is taking for granted that he even has a father to talk to.

The real issue is not what a person has but his attitude of self and others. A person that feels that his wealth makes him a better person is just as bad as a person that feels that his humble circumstances make him the better person.

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Rakeesh
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Note: there is actually a difference between being flat-broke and poor. One's expenses can meet their income and they may still be categorized as rich.
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pH
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That's pretty much my point, camus.

It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems. Because it really doesn't work that way.

-pH

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Xavier
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quote:
If somebody is tired of dealing with the problems that come with too much money, it is very easy for them to change their situation.
Yeah, that rap song that Puff Daddy had about how more money means more problems... Well lets just say it did not inspire sympathy.

Getting rid of money is perhaps one of the easiest things to do in this world.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.
I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.
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Katarain
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Oh.. Well, I didn't read Blayne's thread. Trustifarian wasn't enough to entice me into opening it. But I just did--thanks so much for that little experience...

I guess my comments would have to be directed to the imaginary spoiled kids that he was talking about.

As for rich kids being considered spoiled because they don't have to pay for their education, I think that the notion is there because of the few high-profile students who don't do anything but goof off all day and never study. They just zip around campus, swerving around pedestrians, and cut off the junker cars with their shiny little sports cars... [Smile] They give all of you decent rich kids a bad name...

And since we're now just talking about hypothetical rich kids, I'd bet that the ones complaining about not getting the BMW they wanted really ARE spoiled.

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Katarain
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Having money sure would solve a lot of MY problems! HECK YEAH!

Not all, of course, but I'll take it.

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Earendil18
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.
I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.
Maybe, but those wants may indicate a deeper need for acceptance (emotional dependence?) by others, which they think they can get/will be easier to get if they had those attributes.

At least in the "looks" department.

Money can help save time if you already have it and don't have to go jump through hoops to get to where you want to get. People are envious of the perceived non-existance of said hoops.

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Dagonee
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All this talk about the kid who didn't get his beemer makes me think of Addams Family Values:

quote:
Husband number two--the senator. He loved his state. He loved his country.

What about Debbie?

"Sorry, Debbie. No Mercedes this year. We have to set an example."

Oh, yeah? Set this!


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TomDavidson
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I think that's true for most needs. And it's certainly the case that looks and money facilitate both acceptance AND security.
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Rien
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.

They ARE wrong. Look at movie stars who most can agree have money and looks. Do you see a vastly happy and content group of people? No, you see people with eating disorders, drug problems, relationship problems, depression. I don't think there is any good evidence that good looks and money solve life's problems. I think knowing who you are and your world view and how you fit into it make a MUCH great impact on your hapiness than JUST having money and looks.
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Xavier
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quote:
As for rich kids being considered spoiled because they don't have to pay for their education, I think that the notion is there because of the few high-profile students who don't do anything but goof off all day and never study.
I've met a few of these. I don't consider them bad people though, just lazy [Smile] .

One was my friend Jim, who was in his eighth year of college (for a four year program) and who had gotten kicked out of at least a couple colleges. His parents were really rich doctors. He ended up getting a cushy internship at a company through his parents' connections, despite his less than stellar grades. This was in the middle of the tech crash of around 2001-2002, when even the most promising students weren't getting internships. He made a good drinking buddy though, and was a fun guy.

The other was one of my roommates in San Diego, who happened to share my first name (Phil). He was in his early thirties, and had never had a job in his life. His parents had recently cut him off when I moved in (I'm not sure why), and he had to get a job as a mattress salesman. He lied to his employers and told them he had 5+ years of sales experience. He spent most of his time at the beach and playing golf. He admitted to his laziness freely. He wasn't ashamed of it, but wasn't proud of it either. He was confident that he would be able to convince his parents to bankroll him again soon when I left. But besides being a lazy bum, he was a pretty nice guy.

Did I judge them for letting their family's wealth make them lazy? Of course. But I wasn't resentful or anything.

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Olivet
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Hmmm. You know, my father-in-law (who actually seems to like me) once referred to me as 'a little spoiled', and it really upset me.

Yes, my parents made sacrifices for me. We didn't have a lot of money -- I was always hyper-conscious of ordering cheap things when we ate out, or whatever, because I knew there had been times when there was not much to spare. But things changed, and my mother would hide price tags or cover one side of a menu and make me pick the dress or the dinner that liked best, because 1. by then we did have enough to relax a little and 2. she didn't want me to grow up to be miserly and weird about money.

I think it worked. *shrug*

I had a trust fund because it was set up in the divorce decree, but it wasn't huge. I had scholarships, but I still had a workstudy and maybe $1500.00 a year from my folks to cover other stuff. Ron's trust fund (AND his scholarship) was much larger than mine.

But I was 'spoiled'?

I think it must be that I just looked, at that time in my life, like someone who had everything (and probably always had). I was pretty and thin, had genuinely loving, supportive parents I adored and who were enthusiastic boosters and very proud of me. I had a 4.0 and generally expected good things from life.

Maybe it was that their son would move heaven and earth to sheild me from mild discomforts...

Wait a minute... I AM spoiled!!

*shame*

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.
ph,

Let's get this clear. Not only would money have saved my parent's marriage, it would have saved a very special relationship of my own. Other, harder, choices would have probably salvaged both relationships, but if money wasn't an issue, none of the harder choices would have had to have been made.

If your life worth is related to the greatness of the task you are addressing, having to spend all of your time and energy securing food and shelter doesn't separate you too far from a wild animal.

Now for the most part, I support old money. I wish I had more of it. I also wish I were taller, and bit better looking(not too much of either, though). And I think that the virtue in labor is over-marketed.

There is an old story about Kennedy on the campaign trail stumping in a steel town. One of the workers asked him if he had ever worked a day in his life. Kennedy answered honestly that he hadn't. And the guy paused, looked at him, and said, "Well, you aren't missing much." The hype is large, but the wisdom gained from slaving away is small.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with living on a trust fund. In fact, it seems that there isn't that much of a difference between some property ownership, or even having good credit, and living on trust.

I do agree that we would do well as a society to be especially careful in cultivating empathy among those who do not have to labor, but I've worked my way through school, and I've had grants, and the only difference was that when I worked, I slept in more classes.

quote:
Look at movie stars who most can agree have money and looks. Do you see a vastly happy and content group of people?
Yes.

______

Lastly, having money doesn't make you a brat. Being a brat makes you a brat, and I will say that some of most disturbing brats I know are poor.

[ March 30, 2006, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
They ARE wrong. Look at movie stars who most can agree have money and looks. Do you see a vastly happy and content group of people?
Ah, but their problems aren't products of their money or their looks. That money and looks do not manage to solve ALL problems, but merely go a long way towards making it easier for stars to ignore their crippling problems until they turn up in the public eye, should be pretty obvious. And, of course, fame IS a double-edged sword; money and looks without fame would be, in my opinion, preferable for most people.
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Strider
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CT, I know it's late, but what you talked about with how women treat each others works very differently with men. One thing I've noticed time and again in many different situations, is that women tend to be much more competitive with eachother. Now guys are very competitive too, but we're competitive about what we "do". Games we play. Not who we "ARE".

If one of my friends who was much more well off then me was given a brand new beamer I'd probably say something along the lines of, "****ing spoiled ****. Now lets go for a ride." Come to think of it, I think I HAVE said that exact thing before.

I also agree with Tom. I think people who say "money won't solve your problems" have never been poor. Sure, it's obviously not all there is to life, and if that's the one and only source of your happiness, you need to re-evaluate things. But when you're always worrying about paying bills, getting by, can i spend this much money on groceries and still have enough to pay the rent, etc...It makes concentrating on anything else difficult.

All that said, we were dirt poor when I was growing up. We were immigrants and my mother was on welfare and working two jobs. I had a great childhood, was happy and never really longed to have more money. But I guarantee you my mother did.

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camus
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quote:
Ah, but their problems aren't products of their money or their looks. That money and looks do not manage to solve ALL problems, but merely go a long way towards making it easier for stars to ignore their crippling problems until they turn up in the public eye, should be pretty obvious.
But happiness is not the absence of problems. Sure, money can eliminate certain problems, but those problems are not barriers to happiness.
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Kristen
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Even though she doesn't seem to think I'm on her side, I understand exactly what pH is talking about.

We may have grown up in comfort but we now go to college and interact with people of various socioeconomic backgrounds. And let me tell you, there is nothing worse than telling someone you just met that you went to an elite private school and having them say, snippily, "oh how lucky for you." You can just see the snap judgments form. Frankly, I hated my school, but they are never going to ask my opinion of it: their mind is set. I'm never going to "get them".

What I think pH means is that people should be sensitive to the fact that while certain people have gotten lucky in some aspects of life, their problems are valid and real and there is some balance in the world. For all my financial comfort, there is a lot in my life which is certifiably sucky.

Of course it shows remarkable shortsightedness, ingratitude, and a lack of cultural awareness to complain about not getting a BMV but rather a Saab. But it was a bad example in the first place because cars are status symbols and carry so much cache in our culture.

But if your parents (or anyone!) made a committment, especially financially, and dishonored it for no good reason, I think you have every right to feel upset. However, the trick is to realize the right people to complain to and to understand it in a larger context.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
Sure, money can eliminate certain problems, but those problems are not barriers to happiness.
Well...
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems.
They may solve your current problems, but a whole host of new, and just as serious, problems will crop up. There's no magic cure for problems; as long as we're alive, we'll all have them. Look at lottery winners if you want an example of a group of people who think money will solve their problems. They usually end up broke inside of five years, and they have an unbelievably high suicide rate.

Money =! happiness, and you're deluding yourself if you think it does.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What I think pH means is that people should be sensitive to the fact that while certain people have gotten lucky in some aspects of life, their problems are valid and real and there is some balance in the world.
That's not ALWAYS true. People can be rich, gorgeous, intelligent, AND good, to the point that you feel guilty for hating them.
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
They may solve your current problems, but a whole host of new, and just as serious, problems will crop up.
I think the problems are different in kind and dignity. I imagine a difference between the American Revolutionaries and the French Revolutionaries. There is a difference between hurt pride as Kristen describes and degradation that comes along with being poor.
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Rien
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Ah, but their problems aren't products of their money or their looks.

I would like to politely disagree. Few people get into movies without looks and that's where the money comes from. I think that many of their problems are products of this. I agree that fame is an additional factor in many of these problems though.

But anyway, I think good looks are a two edged sword. If you are REALLY good looking you are going to have certain problems from that and no one is really sympathetic to the pretty girl complaining about her stalker or that only jerks talk to her because the nice guys are too intimidated. On the other hand good looking people often do get better treatment and origionally get more good characteristics attributed to them. I personally think it would be best to be somewhere in between plain and beautiful, you might not get the benifits of being beautiful but you won't have to deal with the problems either.

Money, to a point can make you happy. It is VERY hard to be happy if your fundamental needs of shelter and food are not being met or barely being met through 80+ hour work weeks. After that though, I think that more money does not equate to happiness. There is a high rate of depression in lottery winners as they realize that the money is not bringing them the happiness that they thought it would.

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TomDavidson
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The mere fact that people expect money to rid them of all unhappiness is, IMO, sufficient demonstration of money's effectiveness at eliminating most problems. [Smile]
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Rien
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http://www.investmentadvisor.com/issues/2006_3/columns/6032-1.html People can make mistakes and I think that the assumption that money will make you happy is a mistake.
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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
The mere fact that people expect money to rid them of all unhappiness is, IMO, sufficient demonstration of money's effectiveness at eliminating most problems. [Smile]

I think it creates a scapegoat that allows people to avoid the real problem. Oh, I'm not satisfied with my life? Obviously, it's because I'm not making enough money. I'm unsuccessful in relationships? I don't make enough money to attract the "right" kind of person.

-pH

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El JT de Spang
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No more so than the high school kids who think steroids will get them into the pros demonstrates steroids effectiveness. It may get you what you want, but with it comes a new set of problems that are as bad or worse.

edit: This's to Tom

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TomDavidson
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I think the people who have THOSE thoughts about money, by and large, do not have money problems. [Smile] It's probably a good way to recognize people who have enough money.

Basically, the kind of problems that can be solved with money tend to fall into the category of "real" problems. (The few real problems that can't be solved with money tend to fall under "illness" or "violence," and in many cases money helps with them, too.)

Emotional problems, as far as I'm concerned, aren't even on the MAP. Those are the problems you play with when you don't have to worry about the real issues.

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camus
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quote:
Basically, the kind of problems that can be solved with money tend to fall into the category of "real" problems. (The few real problems that can't be solved with money tend to fall under "illness" or "violence," and in many cases money helps with them, too.)

Emotional problems, as far as I'm concerned, aren't even on the MAP. Those are the problems you play with when you don't have to worry about the real issues.

Of course, the elimination of these problems, real or imagined, is not a requirement for happiness.
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jeniwren
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Reading this thread, this has more to do with prejudice than with money or the lack thereof. Actually, there are a number of issues here.

1. People who are just plain prejudiced against the "rich". Personally, I think there are a LOT of people with this prejudice. If you're rich, you must be selfish and not care about 'the little people'. You don't know what real work is. You'd happily sell your grandmother if it meant money in your pocket. The only real virtue is in sweat. I love country music, but they play to this prejudice rather heavily, IMO. As do many politicians on both sides of the aisle.

2. People who justify prejudices against the rich. These would be the people who make all those prejudices seem true. Corrupt CEOs and Paris Hilton come to mind.

3. People who really don't exactly fit the 'rich' stereotype, but nonetheless have little sense when it comes to choosing who to complain to. I think this is also a very large group, in which I include myself. I've done it.

THat said, IMO having money is much nicer than not having it. However, just like anything else, if you have it, you have to take care of it and sometimes that can be as much work as making it in the first place. I wouldn't call that a problem unless it becomes one.

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El JT de Spang
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Emotional problems are every bit as real as the 'real' problems you reference that money would wash away.
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TomDavidson
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camus, your point -- that someone CAN be happy despite his or her circumstances -- is a bit obvious. [Smile] Will you concede that it is HARDER to be happy in times of difficulty, or are you confident that happiness is simply a state of mind independent of condition or environment?

-------

quote:
Emotional problems are every bit as real as the 'real' problems you reference that money would wash away.
I disagree. I think they're an entirely separate and altogether less serious category of problem.
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Katarain
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But the "real" problems that Tom is talking about can be fixed with money. If you have emotional problems, they're going to be there whether you have money or not. And even beyond emotional problems, you still have relationship problems, and what do I do with my life problems, and should I have white or red meat tonight sorts of problems.

But everybody has those sorts of problems. If you have problems managing money when you're poor, you're probably going to have problems managing it when you're rich. If you have spousal trouble when you're poor, you'll probably have spousal trouble when you're rich. But if you have troubles paying your electric bill when you're poor, you shouldn't have that trouble when you're rich.

I think the happiness that I would be talking about for myself that would be more easily achievable if I had money would have to do with being able to start a family and to devote a lot of time to that family. It's my priority while I'm poor, so I know it would be a priority if I am ever rich. But right now, because we don't have a lot of money, we can't afford to start a family. What my priority of family means to me as a poor person is that we need to be responsible enough that we don't have kids we can't take care of. When we have some more money, then we'll be able to have those kids. So, it kind of DOES come down to money for me. And since I don't think it's going to just fall out of the sky, that means I have to work for it and save.

Eh. People are loud at work. Makes it hard to concentrate.

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