posted
In my great quest for a career that makes me excited to wake up in the morning (and after having tried and nixed musical theatre, professional writing, and veterinary technology) I recently had my interest sparked by a one-year intensive film school that i heard about, located in Sedona, Arizona: Zaki Gordon Film Institute
It's very, very intense -- they recommend you don't work at a real-world job for the entire year (which would be completely NOT feasible, obviously i still would work) and it's 9,000 for the year for out-of-staters (that's me)
The only reason I was looking at this one as opposed to others is because my neighbor is moving out to Sedona and I could live with her, paying what would hopefully be a substantially reduced rent, because she'll be owning the house.
All minor details aside, the main question i have is: how do i know that this program is what i need? In other words, how, without knowing anyone 'in the business' do i find out how it compares to others?
All the classes sound interesting, and i've never looked at a year's worth of classes and thought that before I don't have any ties to Pennsylvania anymore, except family and friends of course. But I don't have something in my life that i need to stick around here for. I so want to just pick up and move to Sedona where it's artsy and beautiful and spend a year filming short films and writing a full-length screenplay!! (And getting my film entered at Cannes -- a guarantee with this program)
Whaddya think? Am i cuckoo for cocoa puffs, or what?
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posted
It's hard to say with a school this new - it's only been open for six years and was the first of its type.
A quick google search reveals 464 hits, many of which cite the Zaki Gordon Institute Award for Independent Filmmaking, so the institute apparently does an annual award that is prestigious enough to be recognized as desirable by institutions like Columbia. There are also several websites for small, independent filmmakers who list themselves as ZGI grads, but not many.
IMDB's info on Zaki Gordon, the man. This is what strikes me as discouraging: the founder of this film school does not have an extensive repetoire (and if anyone would know, it's the IMDB).
Regarding the feasibility of the idea, period: there's really only one way to find out. My only caveat is: how long have you been thinking about this institute? How well have you researched its programs? Have you talked to current students of this institute (or of any filmmaking institute)? Why do you want to go to film school? Do you feel you can be a filmmaker successful enough to support yourself for the rest of your life?
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quote: how long have you been thinking about this institute?
About a week. I am already enrolled in college for the coming fall semester, a decision i made mostly because i need to be working towards SOMETHING as a career goal, and since i do still like animals and it's only two years, i thought i might as well bite the bullet)
quote: How well have you researched its programs?
As much as one can having known about the program for about a week. I honestly just don't know how to go about researching it!
quote:Have you talked to current students of this institute (or of any filmmaking institute)?
No, and no, but the former is definitely a great idea and the latter is advisable as well. I just, you know, don't know anyone who does this.
quote: Why do you want to go to film school?
All my life i've loved acting, but i always wanted to be doing something MORE with my knowledge. I watch movies and analyze them to death. I go see plays and mentally re-block scenes in my head, or re-cast roles from among the cast. I've always loved movies, i've always loved performing, and i always have mountains of ideas and never any place to creatively expell them into the world I made two short, short, silly movies when i was younger that i just adore watching, and have been absolutely gagging to wrangle my friends together to make another.
It's funny, because my ex-boyfriend always expressed mild interest in the career, and i would just LEAP onto every word he said, pushing him to get into it, go to school, make a movie, write a screenplay, WHATEVER. and i realize now that *I* wanted to be doing all those things for it.
quote:Do you feel you can be a filmmaker successful enough to support yourself for the rest of your life?
Well, that's the question, isn't it? I think "filmmaker" is the ideal, and i would be more than happy just getting my foot in the door and being able to do something, anything creative on a movie set, big-budget or independent. So many people are employed by the movie industry as editors, or sound mixers, or casting directors -- i think i could be great at any and all of those jobs, and having a background in making short films and writing, and producing, and camera work, and sound and staging, etc. etc. etc. (all things that thing program provides) would enable me to do anything i wanted within the movie industry.
~*~
From the outside, i must look like a complete basket case -- flip-flopping from one major to another. Musical theatre for two weeks, professional writing for a year, veterinary technology for a month -- nothing clicked, nothing interested me for more than a moment. Maybe if i had all the time in the world, i would sit and contemplate and maybe take yet ANOTHER year off from school to formulate my plans. But i don't have all the time in the world, and i can't just sit at home doing nothing anymore. I want to try something new, and i want to do something that truly interests me. What do you do when you have tried so many things and they haven't clicked? Obviously something has to click eventually!
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quote:As much as one can having known about the program for about a week. I honestly just don't know how to go about researching it!
quote:No, and no, but the former is definitely a great idea and the latter is advisable as well. I just, you know, don't know anyone who does this.
Call the school. If they're even halfway organized, they'll be able to put you in touch with an advisor, a current student, an alum or all three. Alternately, I saw at least two myspaces in the google results for ZGI - and really, what good is myspace if you can't use it for something like this?
quote:From the outside, i must look like a complete basket case -- flip-flopping from one major to another. Musical theatre for two weeks, professional writing for a year, veterinary technology for a month -- nothing clicked, nothing interested me for more than a moment. Maybe if i had all the time in the world, i would sit and contemplate and maybe take yet ANOTHER year off from school to formulate my plans.
I don't think you're nuts at all. To me, this is what our undergraduate college system is supposed to be about: trying things to see if you like them.
That said, I think you may want to try things for longer than a couple of weeks or a month; it sounds to me like you aren't giving things enough time to sit and percolate. For a lot of subjects, you won't really get a feel for what the field is like until higher level coursework. Your ability to pursue things this way is probably limited by finances, though, and that much I understand.
I'd definitely recommend being more sure than it sounds like you are before enrolling in film school. Try to find seminars, festivals, clubs, organizations etc. in your area where you can get a taste for it. Look at community colleges in your area and see if they offer courses in fields you're interested in. The advent of online learning is a REALLY useful tool for this: I was able to take two full quarters (45 credits/quarter) of online courses while working 60 hours a week because I could work at my own pace, and the courses (while not always a substitute for being in a classroom) really helped me narrow down what I wanted to be doing with the rest of my life.
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posted
I had been in musical theatre my whole life, acting and directing, and i just realized after starting to attend classes that: a) i didn't need a lot of the teaching they were giving me, b) the school was grooming students to be chorus members, or triple threats, and i didn't have any interest in dancing, only acting and singing and c) i really wasn't interested in living in New York or being in tours, two basic necessities for young actors
As for the vet tech degree, I realized something I could only have realized by attending the program: that i actually had positively no interest in medicine whatsoever. My desire for working with animals prompted me to apply, and it became clear pretty quickly that i was always going to struggle because i simply wasn't interested in the science behind it all. A dog-walker or pet babysitter would probably be more suited to my tastes
I think the advice in your last paragraph is good, I just feel like i need to be working towards something, not testing more things out. I don't want to work full time and take two or three classes for the next year...i want to be DOING something. I *hate* waitressing, and i want to be able to be done with it as soon as possible.
Online classes sound like a good route to look into, at any rate. Thanks for the advice!
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posted
There are several kinds of filmmaking, and different schools have different specialties. Make sure this place does what you like. Do they specialize in fiction? Documentaries? Do they cultivate hollywood types who work with big studios? Artsy types who apply for grants and then do the small film festival circuit? Or do they just like to take money from people who claim to be into film? (This isn't all that uncommon.)
And there are all kinds of jobs in film. Are they going to train you as a director? Producer? Set designer? Assistant director? Cinematographer? Special effects artist? You should probably know which of these you'd be interested in before you sign up for any programs.
I've got several friends who work in film. Most were trained either at one of the Universities of California or are graduates of programs like the DGA internship program. One moved out to LA after undergrad to try out screenwriting and is now an executive producer of a very popular television show. These aren't the only ways to get into film/tv, of course. Having said that, I've watched people who "want to work in film" take classes and make a lot of films out here in New Mexico, making no attempt to familiarize themselves with the industry itself, and they're going nowhere fast. Even my working screenwriter friends who live out here spend a lot of time in LA doing pitch sessions and business meetings. When they're writing for a show, they rent an apartment out there and live for months on end. It simply can't be done from anywhere else.
You'll need to make sure that a school in Arizona can put you in touch with at least one locus of the industry, if not LA, then somewhere that movie deals get finalized and films that are actually watched by people get made. There's the film industry and the "film industry", if you get what I mean. One makes films. The other involves a lot of people talking about how much they'd like to make films, but operates on the philosophy that you need to get struck by lightening or get lucky to work in the field.
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quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are several kinds of filmmaking, and different schools have different specialties. Make sure this place does what you like. Do they specialize in fiction? Documentaries? Do they cultivate hollywood types who work with big studios? Artsy types who apply for grants and then do the small film festival circuit? Or do they just like to take money from people who claim to be into film? (This isn't all that uncommon.)
The college has two programs: Narrative Filmmaking, and Documentary Filmmaking. I'm interested almost solely in Narrative Filmmaking. They are more geared towards the "artsy types who apply for grants and then do the small film festival circuit" It sounds like their grads go on to do varied things, not just small-time indie filmmaking. I'm planning on contacting one of the students on myspace to get a hopefully unbiased view of the college.
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posted
A good friend of mine and her husband both went to the AFI Conservatory. My friend decided that film is not for her and enrolled in a JD/MBA program (she's insanely smart and hard-working), but her husband is now a producer with Lakeshore Entertainment.
I think OlavMah gave excellent advice.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Olav gave great advice in terms of investigating the practicality of film making; the big three (NYU, USC, UCLA) are all in areas where film connections can be easily made and that is not a pure coincidence.
Good luck--nothing wrong with investigating a longterm dream. If it doesn't pan out, it doesn't pan out. However, perhaps you should take a film class just to get a sense of the editing/filming/creating process. It can be really time-consuming.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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This industry seems to rely heavily on contacts you make.
My brother is an editor at a company that does movie trailers and commercials. He was at Villanova, then decided he wanted to try film - moved to CA and did community college for a year to try for UCLA. Wasn't working, so he came back east and took classes in NY (either New York Fil Academy or New School, can't remember which). Whichever it was, it was a very hands-on experience, each class dividing into small enough working groups so that every student had a turn at writing/directing/cameraman/editing/etc.
All the succesful people from his film classes are people that got internships, made crap $ for a year or 2, but made connections and worked them. One is writing for SNL(former NBC page), one is doing a comdey series for NBC online...I've lost track of those who went west. My brother did a summer internship for his current company here in the city, busted his butt, learned the business and stayed there.
He's very happy editing (even though his original dream was directing). Wherever you go, work hard, be cheerful and make freinds.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Contacts are ALWAYS important in entertainment. School CAN help you with those at times, but I think one has to be especially wary of one-year programs. I will say, flat-out, that just about all of the opportunities I've gotten so far (in music) have been through connections. It's a matter of meeting good people.
There's a school in Orlando called Fullsail which does kind of the same thing, except for a ton of different areas, and as far as I can tell...their graduates don't do too well.
Part of the reason is because they put out so many graduates that they flood the market, and they offer very little in the way of job placement. On the other hand, I know next to nothing about the school you're looking at, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
posted
Their graduating class appeared to be about twenty people. So at least they're not flooding the market. But i did ask the director in email specifically what they did to help students get careers after certification, and his reply was:
quote: We are geared toward helping filmmakers make movies. Our focus isn't about being a feeder for the film industry, so we don't focus on job placement. Having said that I don't think you'll find a better education to take you from concept to distribution in filmmaking in one year. Making movies is the best job placement and security in the film industry.
posted
Hmmmm...well, it sounds like they teach you to be...starving artists. Because unless the school actively tries to get you industry contacts, through internships or guests or something, it's going to be really hard to get a job, I'm guessing.
posted
You're not nuts at all for flip-flopping majors, Leonide, heck I can't even count how many times I have.
Funny, but I've ended up at the same major I started out in over 15 years ago.
You've got some excellent advice here, but I would just caution to take a long time to look this over and think about it - make sure the excitement you feel is really about going to film school and not just the excitement of doing something different. Sometimes when we feel we're stuck in a rut we'll jump at anything to get us out of it - make sure you want to go for the right reasons.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: We are geared toward helping filmmakers make movies. Our focus isn't about being a feeder for the film industry, so we don't focus on job placement. Having said that I don't think you'll find a better education to take you from concept to distribution in filmmaking in one year. Making movies is the best job placement and security in the film industry.
I second pH's statement. This response is extremely obtuse and an indication that the person you're in contact with, at least, is a dishonest liar.
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posted
If they don't provide job placement, as most colleges do, what do they provide *except* experience? Something I could get just messing around at home (although obviously it wouldn't be as in-depth as working with people who know the ropes)
I think my family's concern with my wishy-washy attitude towards what major I want is mostly due to the fact that most of them have had nothing to do with each other: musical theatre, professional writing, veterinary technology, film production....not exactly related fields!
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I graduated from NYU film school several years ago. The biggest thing is making contacts, contacts, contacts. I didn't do this, and some days I have regrets, but a variety of factors played into that and I won't bore you with the details. Most professionals get to their level because of networking and being remembered by someone you met who now works in the industry.
A one-year program might be okay, but you will definitely want to migrate to LA or NY once you're done. And LA is probably the better bet, simply because there are many more jobs out there. I'm a little weary of one-year programs, though, because many entry-level jobs want you to have at least a Bachelor's degree. If you already have one, then you should try it, as you'll have access to good equipment and the chance to make a short film which you can enter in festivals.
If you are really passionate about this, and can't imagine doing anything else, go for it. But the risk/reward ratio is huge, so don't go into it with blinders on. It is a cool industry, and you will meet many exciting, creative, fun individuals. But there are a lot of people that want to break into the industry, so entry-level jobs pay poorly and years can be spent before getting a respectable salary. For every overnight success, there are hundreds and hundreds waiting to "make it."
Posts: 10 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Making movies is the best job placement and security in the film industry.
That doesn't really say anything. Yes, if you're making movies, you have some security. But you don't just waltz up to the Paramount lot and announce your intention to start making movies.
If serious about filmmaking, definitely look into alternate schools. NYU and USC are the best, and they provide access to internship information and provide info and classes on alternate careers to writing/directing.
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posted
I will say, concerning USC, that I met a professor who said that he thinks USC's program is pretty...not so good. Of course, this is only for music industry, so film may be different.
This is what I was told: One of your first assignments is to interview someone from the music industry and write a paper about it. What they are REALLY doing is sizing up what kinds of contacts you already have. If you have awesome connections, school is magically easier for you.
I will also note that he was not a USC professor. He was also not a professor from my school.
posted
I have a degree in Film, but since my program was focused entirely on theory and criticism, I'm about as prepared to start making movies as an English professor.
However, I am hoping to break into a similar industry, animation... which I think is easier in some ways and harder in others. If anything, there's even MORE demand for jobs, and even fewer positions to fill, since everyone who's ever seen a Pixar film has thought to themselves, "Damn! I want to do that!" At the same time, though, while contacts and luck are a huge part of getting started, I think that skill and talent still count for a whole lot, and are easily measurable. You just don't see a lot of stellar character animators starving on the streets, unless they're hard to work with, in which case yeah, they'll have a hard time keeping a job.
But yeah, contacts are huge. I've been lucky enough to end up in a school where there are so many talented and awesome people around me that I don't need to "network", I can just enjoy being friends with talented, awesome people. If your end goal is to actually work in Hollywood or on feature films, I'd highly recommend that you find a similar situation, where both the curriculum AND the people involved are incredibly cool.
quote:But yeah, contacts are huge. I've been lucky enough to end up in a school where there are so many talented and awesome people around me that I don't need to "network", I can just enjoy being friends with talented, awesome people. [Smile] If your end goal is to actually work in Hollywood or on feature films, I'd highly recommend that you find a similar situation, where both the curriculum AND the people involved are incredibly cool.
Sounds like Art Center.
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I'm also wondering about film schooling etc. At my local university (Eastern Washington Uni) there is a program called "Electronic Media & Film". It's a fairly well rounded 2 year BA program with leanings towards narrative, story critique & theory.
So it's nice in the sense that it'll help my weaknesses (screenwriting, story creation) but my strengths do lie more in the editing room. The timing and synthesis of audio and visual elements for various effects.
So, I'm confuzzled. I like editing, but in order to be more erm...marketable/talented, wouldn't learning the ins and outs of effective narratives and writing also be a good thing? I can always go to an actual film school after I get my BA...Maybe..?
This program may also be good to get into similar fields like TV commercials, dramas, sitcoms etc.
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:We are geared toward helping filmmakers make movies. Our focus isn't about being a feeder for the film industry, so we don't focus on job placement. Having said that I don't think you'll find a better education to take you from concept to distribution in filmmaking in one year. Making movies is the best job placement and security in the film industry.
Well, sorry, but this reeks of "film industry" to me. The last sentence isn't even true. Many of you know of George RR Martin, who was a screenwriter for many years between his two novel writing careers. He got paid very well, and not one single feature that he wrote ever got made. The screenplays sold for big bucks, though, and he was very much working in that field. (And yes, he wrote a bunch of TV shows, too.) But he doesn't know how to go from concept to finished film. He's never made a film, that I know of, in his life.
Another friend of mine is a special effects artist who works freelance these days. She doesn't make films herself, she gets hired by big studios to work on parts of films that have already sold to distributers. Her job requires her to know only one teeny tiny aspect of "going from concept to finished film". She's got great job security right now.
A third friend of mine has her mfa in film from UCLA. She's made several films, won some very respectable grants, but does not make her primary income from filmmaking. Of all of my friends, she's probably the most thoroughly educated about how to go from concept to finished film. Yet, she's not what you'd call a full time filmmaker, and her finished films aren't "job security". They're expensive projects that do not pay back what they cost, no insult meant to my friend. As my entertainment law prof would always say, "Most films lose money." (He made us recite that every day.) Large studios stay afloat by kissing a dozen toads and hoping for a couple princes that pay for all of their projects for the year. Well, that and parting unsuspecting investors from their money. My friend makes good films, and I think she finds it artistically satisfying. Her job security? She doesn't really have a "job" in the film industry.
Yet another friend (I'm losing count here) worked as a stagemanager for years in theater, got into the DGA internship program, and worked on LOTS of films. For a year after she finished, we could go to the theaters and watch for her names in the credits of quite a few big studio productions. Now she, I think, probably knows the most of any of my friends about the mechanics of film. How films are shot, how to put up a set, how to put together a shooting schedule, etc. She's very artistic and LOVES theater. She hated film. It turned out to not be what she was interested in. Fortunately, she got a thorough education that enables her to work in the field (there's a shortage of DGA trained assistant directors, I gather), but actually knows enough to know that its not what she wants to do. That in itself is an invaluable education, and she didn't need to spend thousands of dollars to get it.
You don't need to know how to make whole movies to work in the film industry. Many if not most of the people whose names scroll by in the closing credits don't. And the closer you get to the actual film industry, the better your education will be. It'd be a pity to spend that kind of tuition on a teaser course that doesn't really show you what a career in film would entail.
posted
So, should I just try to find some sort of low-paying internship/crew position on a local film set? I'm an hour from Philly -- should my goal for the summer be to work doing something in the film industry?
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posted
I think it's definitely worth trying to get on a set, see how things work, and see what the overall atmosphere is like, if being on a set is what you see yourself training for. If you wanted to do animation, it would probably not give you much useful info.
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posted
I was wondering why you asked me to check out that school. I couldn't figure out why you wanted me to go to Arizona. Didn't realize it was for you. Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Strider: that, and I also know you were interested, at one point, in going back to school for film. I thought something like this would save you time and money in that endeavour.
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I don't have any ties to Pennsylvania anymore, except family and friends of course. But I don't have something in my life that i need to stick around here for. I so want to just pick up and move to Sedona where it's artsy and beautiful and spend a year filming short films and writing a full-length screenplay!! (And getting my film entered at Cannes -- a guarantee with this program)
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At the same time, though, while contacts and luck are a huge part of getting started, I think that skill and talent still count for a whole lot, and are easily measurable. You just don't see a lot of stellar character animators starving on the streets, unless they're hard to work with, in which case yeah, they'll have a hard time keeping a job. 
