posted
I wonder how much blood you have to spill on a few hectares of dirt before the entire freakin' area counts as a sacrificial altar.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:And don't say that not every Palestinians wants this; that the brutal, fanatical minority is holding the majority of good people hostage. That is a complete lie. They were able to have free elections, and they elected Hammas ON THEIR OWN, KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT THEY STAND FOR.
The Palestinian people, on the whole, want only two things. Israel's destruction, and Palastine back.
This is dramatically incorrect. While Hamas is without a doubt a terrorist organization, by far most of their funds go to humanitarian assistance for Palestinians rather than terrorism, and (ironically) they are known for being generally uncorrupt, unlike the other candidates for office. While many palestinians are hardly friendly to Israel (much as many Israelis are hardly friendly to palestinians), it is more correct that most of them don't care if somebody attacks Israel than that they support the attacks on Israel. Not a laudable moral quality, but not as bad as the invalid caricature you paint by ignoring all qualities of Hamas but terrorism.
Since they took power, all of that changed. Now they spend obscene sums of money on weapons of death, while their people continue to live in refugee camps.
You what, have a Hamas finance department meeting ledger we could look at?
I don't dismiss what you're saying out of hand here, but your bias doesn't lend you any more believability than my supposed bias grants me to you.
Just curious where you got your facts.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: *shrug* I certainly don't believe we get our money's worth.
I move that we immediately cease all financial aid to the State of Israel. Can I get a second?
I disagree. If you refined that to the cessation of sale of military hardware that'd be fine. Shouldn't be an imposition, they can make their own. But I'd also restrict financial aid to no longer include the purchasing of military hardware, which is impossible, but I don't support cutting them off entirely.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:To make a comment like this and then become offended when I point out it's almost an identical photocopy of the same argument anti-Semites and conspiracy theorists use to argue American/Israeli foreign policy is outrageous.
Yes, I'm aware there are Jewish advocates in the government, but you make it seem as if the power they weild can dictate the USA's actions at a whim.
I really don't see it as all that outrageous at all. You said something that is obviously contrary to truth, and I corrected you, rather sarcastically, but it was warranted all the same. You replied by implying I was an anti-semite, which doesn't at ALL follow from what I said. If someone said that African Americans had no voice in this country and I said the same basic thing with "because god knows the NAACP (etc) has no say in this country." Would you automatically assume I was a part of the KKK? It's not a logical conclusion.
As for your second part: Then right back at you. Bush isn't exactly on the phone giving secret orders to Olmert every day of the week. Israel routinely ignores American suggestions on what to do. Good for them. They shouldn't have to bow to American will. I don't see where I implied at all that the Israeli lobbies in America have anywhere near that kind of immediate power. I was merely contradicting your stance that there was NO voice. You also seem to be operating under the assumption that the USA DOES have that sort of power. I don't see it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I have never heard anyone claim the NAACP ran the government of America from behind the scenes, a charge hurled almost exclusively at the Jews by a huge array of people.
This is why I reacted as I did. I didn't mean to say that you yourself are an anti-Semite, was only simply trying to show how people twist what you said to conform to what they see as some sort of great Jewish conspiracy
Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: *shrug* I certainly don't believe we get our money's worth.
I move that we immediately cease all financial aid to the State of Israel. Can I get a second?
I disagree. If you refined that to the cessation of sale of military hardware that'd be fine. Shouldn't be an imposition, they can make their own. But I'd also restrict financial aid to no longer include the purchasing of military hardware, which is impossible, but I don't support cutting them off entirely.
Money is money. It all goes into the same pot. Give civil aid, and it frees up money for military expenditures.
quote:I wasn't aware that such an outrageous statement required a "proper debating tactic" to dismantle as being ridiculous.
If you can't refute it, just say so and don't hide behind, "That's so ridiculous I don't need to. Which is essentially what you're doing. Go ahead, explain to us how 'giving input' equals 'dictating actions', please. I'm still waiting.
quote:To make a comment like this and then become offended when I point out it's almost an identical photocopy of the same argument anti-Semites and conspiracy theorists use to argue American/Israeli foreign policy is outrageous.
If there wasn't a group of people arguing that the Jews control the American government behind the scenes, I would be more tolerant of a comment like this. You will have to forgive me being a little hostile about it, I think there may have been some prejudice against the Jews for a few thousand years or so that has made me a little jaded.
Yes, I'm aware there are Jewish advocates in the government, but you make it seem as if the power they weild can dictate the USA's actions at a whim.
So what, no one can ever make a statement about Israelis that is also made by anti-Semites even if the statement is true without also being an anti-Semite? That's just plain stupid. You don't get to hide behind your victimization routine like that.
If you knew me, you'd know I get pretty upset about people trivializing past atrocities and hatred directed towards Jews, and present. But that doesn't mean that stating a plain and simple fact, albeit sarcastically-that the pro-Israeli lobby within the US exerts some political power-makes one an anti-Semite. Stop shielding your arguments with cries of, "Racism!" and actually defend them.
quote:First, what kind of political power do the Israelis really hold on the world stage when almost a third of UN human rights resolutions are directed at condemning them for their treatment of the Palestinians when Palestinian terrorism isn't even bothered to be mentioned in a single resolution?
We were discussing Israeli political power within the USA, not on the world stage. Don't try and weasel away from that.
quote:Second, the USA's help is very much conditional.
Of course it's conditional! What, you want our money, technology, and expertise with no strings attached? Our federal government doesn't even do that for our states, much less for foreign governments.
Maybe you should remember that constant American support for Israel is probably the single biggest thing which gains it the hatred of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists throughout the world. It doesn't earn us any friends in Europe, either. There is a chance that the USA would not have the hatred and enmity of most of the citizens of the world's oil well if it were not for its support of Israel.
quote:I mean in respect to how it defends itself
Well, at least you've clarified something instead of pretending something was said which clearly was not. That's a step up.
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: That's an overview, not a paper arguing for it. The information found on those pages is considered general knowledge. I can dig up some papers on the topic, though unless you're at a university I doubt you'll have easy access to them.
You're an idealist living in a comfortable world. Imagine you were a palestinian, whose infrastructure is periodically attacked by someone else. All the parties you can vote for support terrorism, though some are more open about their support than others. All but one are corrupt. That one is providing you significant humanitarian assistance while the other has been repeatedly found to steal money intended for humanitarian purposes.
Say all you want that a vote for Hamas is a vote for terrorism. Its not. A vote for Hamas is a vote for being apathetic about their terrorism, which is also very bad, but it is understandable, and an opinion that can be influenced by providing better options. I am saying most Palestinians don't really care about their terrorist operations.
(And on a side note, your logic is generally incorrect; people make balancing decisions every day in all parts of life, including voting. The number of people who vote for someone they support every activity of approaches nil; it is, however, reasonable to say that voting for a group partaking somewhat in terrorism is a compromise that should never be made).
As for your pleas for Hamas separating, sure that would be nice, but it isn't reality. Its not what's happening, and nice as it would be, try to focus on the situation as it actually exists for the people having to make very hard choices.
Please do not attempt to guess as to whether or not I live in "a comfortable world." You can glean that I am an idealist from my comments but you have no idea what background I come from, unless you have mined that information from comments I have made in other places.
Yeah we had problems during most of Americas history with political parties that did not represent the views of the people. Its called form another party, Palestine is small enough that campaigning for votes while still difficult is CERTAINLY possible.
Your arguement that a vote for Hammas is a vote for apathy concerning terrorism COULD be true, but I still think plenty of people vote for Hammas and simply hope they will deal with the Israeli problem while they look the other way.
You are right people make balancing decisions all the time, and they still accept that they are allowing evil in with the good they hope to accomplish.
You are asking me to focus on things as they are, not as I wish them to be. You still have not given me a good reason as to why the humanitarian side of Hammas has not split off from the militant side. Are you suggesting that it is A: Impossible to accomplish, B: Potentially crippling and therefore realistically impossible or C: It for some reason just has not happened?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
First, it doesn't much matter if Hamas doesn't 'split'; they haven't, and only the real choices are options for your random palestinian. I'm not sure why you harp on something irrelevant.
Second, the whole notion of 'splitting' reflects yet another gross misunderstanding on your part. Its not like there's one group of people in Hamas who are all 'kill the Israelis' and another group of people in Hamas who are all 'help the palestinians'. There are people in Hamas who focus on their terrorist activities, and there are people in Hamas who focus on humanitarian ends, but the reason they are part of the same overall organizations is they find in each other similar desires and goals. Hamas isn't going to split up because the people in Hamas don't want to. They are organized together of their own free will. How many times do I have to point at this simple, obvious fact?
As for you living in a comfortable world, you live in the US according to your profile and have a frequent internet connection. Odds are at least 99.9% that you live in a comfortable world in comparison to one where schools (on both sides) are being hit by missile and artillery fire, where homes are bulldozed, where suicide bombers detonate bombs in public markets, et cetera. Heck, you're even in school (again, according to your profile) and have access to our excellent educational system!
Your remarks on forming another party only underscore how comfortable the world you and I live in is.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: [QB] First, it doesn't much matter if Hamas doesn't 'split'; they haven't, and only the real choices are options for your random palestinian. I'm not sure why you harp on something irrelevant.
Second, the whole notion of 'splitting' reflects yet another gross misunderstanding on your part. Its not like there's one group of people in Hamas who are all 'kill the Israelis' and another group of people in Hamas who are all 'help the palestinians'. There are people in Hamas who focus on their terrorist activities, and there are people in Hamas who focus on humanitarian ends, but the reason they are part of the same overall organizations is they find in each other similar desires and goals. Hamas isn't going to split up because the people in Hamas don't want to. They are organized together of their own free will. How many times do I have to point at this simple, obvious fact?
Where have I ever questioned your statement that the people within Hammas have intentionally banded together? You pointed out that Hammas mostly does good and are a better choice when compared to the corrupt fatah party. I am arguing the good they do is completely eclipsed by the evil that is also an essential part of their organization.
I thought you were saying people vote for Hammas because of the humanitarian aspect of the organization and are apathetic to the militant wing. And so I have argued that votes and dollars do not work that way.
You have said that Hammas is not going to split because the people who work within the militant and humanitarian wings both agree with each other. (I'd be interested to see how you seem to know so much about the overall feelings of those who belong to Hamas.)
If they do not want to split up then again you are reinforcing the idea that Hammas is a Terrorist organization that rewards with humanitarian aide those who might support them.
quote: As for you living in a comfortable world, you live in the US according to your profile and have a frequent internet connection. Odds are at least 99.9% that you live in a comfortable world in comparison to one where schools (on both sides) are being hit by missile and artillery fire, where homes are bulldozed, where suicide bombers detonate bombs in public markets, et cetera. Heck, you're even in school (again, according to your profile) and have access to our excellent educational system!
I moved to the US when I was 21 years old. I am now 24. The last 3 years have been my only exposure to the US's educational system.
Are you suggesting that only if I personally had rockets launched at my school while it was in session that I would be imbued with knowledge crucial to be able to form an inteligent opinion on this matter?
If this is in fact what your saying it makes your remarks on this whole thread as worthless as mine. Why even bother discussing since only those who are there can make educated conclusions on the matter? I was not there for the cultural revolution, but I think I have read enough literature to deduce that it was an evil thing.
quote: Your remarks on forming another party only underscore how comfortable the world you and I live in is.
Instead of simply dismissing my statements, perhaps you could explain to me why you disagree.
No, if you had rockets so launched you would be living a similarly uncomfortable life. You told me not to assume about your comfort, so I explained why I considered it safe to assume your comfort. It has nothing to do with making your ideas worthy or unworthy, though I think it explains where some of your ideas come from.
Forming another party is a difficult luxury. Those who at least tacitly accept terrorism have access to significantly more funding. Those who actively oppose terrorists stand a good chance of being targeted. Even those who actively oppose terrorists are still subject to the disruptions caused by Israeli and militant combat. Mere survival is a day to day struggle for many. There are those strongly opposing terrorism, but they are few, while those at best apathetic about terrorism far outnumber them. Again, most of these things are well known and their impact should be obvious.
It is all well and good to say they should form another party, but its not particularly realistic. I would certainly like it if a viable anti-terrorism party were to emerge, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Its even reasonable to think less of many palestinians for this being the case, but it still doesn't make nearly all of them strong supporters of terrorism, which seems to be your claim that started this discussion.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Good is never completely eclipsed by evil.
No, if you had rockets so launched you would be living a similarly uncomfortable life. You told me not to assume about your comfort, so I explained why I considered it safe to assume your comfort. It has nothing to do with making your ideas worthy or unworthy, though I think it explains where some of your ideas come from.
Forming another party is a difficult luxury. Those who at least tacitly accept terrorism have access to significantly more funding. Those who actively oppose terrorists stand a good chance of being targeted. Even those who actively oppose terrorists are still subject to the disruptions caused by Israeli and militant combat. Mere survival is a day to day struggle for many. There are those strongly opposing terrorism, but they are few, while those at best apathetic about terrorism far outnumber them. Again, most of these things are well known and their impact should be obvious.
It is all well and good to say they should form another party, but its not particularly realistic. I would certainly like it if a viable anti-terrorism party were to emerge, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Its even reasonable to think less of many palestinians for this being the case, but it still doesn't make nearly all of them strong supporters of terrorism, which seems to be your claim that started this discussion.
If a good act is sufficiently saturated by evil, it ought not to be done.
You make some interesting points about the difficulties of forming another party. I was not trying to say that most Palestinians agree that terrorism is right, merely that whether intentionally or unintentionally, by supporting Hammas they are supporting terrorism.
I need to think a bit more on some of the points you made. I am most likely done posting on this thread, unless it flares up somehow Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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