posted
The fat discrimination and rights thread brought up some issues for me and I thought they would be more appropriate for a separate thread.
All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have. People have been very cruel and ugly to me and have felt completely virtuous and justified doing so. Frankly, I’m getting tired of it.
I was very thin growing up and I started to develop when I was 9 years old. I was an AA cup in 5th grade and I was a large C in 8th grade. I ended up a D in high school and didn’t gain weight anywhere else. Every girl in America would kill for my figure, right? I was miserable. My cousin, Rebecca, wouldn’t speak to me for months after we went bra shopping with our mothers because she was flat and I was not. None of my girl friends would let me complain that I felt awkward – they’d either roll their eyes dismissively or get furious. When I was in 5th grade, the boys somehow got hold of a book on female development. It showed the 5 stages of breast growth (5 being the biggest) and they called me “Size 5” all year. I was only 10 and I would come home in tears over it (I was savvy enough not to let them know it bothered me). Boys and men mistook my age and made very suggestive comments to me. This is scary and humiliating to a young girl and I felt like a dirty freak. The summer between 4th and 5th grade, a friend of my cousin Tommy’s asked me if I wanted to have sex with him because “girls like you have sex with all the guys.” He had me backed against a tree – thank goodness my cousins found us or I don’t know what he might have done. I was 10 and he was 12. This continued throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. I went on a lot of dates with a lot of boys and almost none of them were interested in my mind. When I wouldn’t do what they wanted, they spread terrible rumors about me. A lot of the other girls were jealous and only too happy to believe, embellish, and spread these rumors. So while I was popular in school (which everyone thinks they want), I was very unhappy.
Even when I became more comfortable with myself, I couldn’t escape it. When I was 17, I became engaged to a boy from a very wealthy family (we broke it off before we left for college). He was overweight and had bad skin and was “ugly” by some standards. He was so kind and smart and funny that he looked wonderful to me, but people stared at us when we were out. His family had box seats to the symphony and we often went. One time we met some little old ladies who knew his family. By an awful coincidence I was in a bathroom stall when they came to brush their hair and I overheard them talking about us. The gist of the conversation was that we were a perfect match because he had the money and brains and I had the looks and family name. I found that amusing at first, but then I thought about how unfair it was to Jason and me. He was the first person who saw beyond my looks and could not have cared less about my family name. I didn’t care about his money and I was every bit as smart as him. But because of how we both looked I was a (future) trophy wife and he was a sugar daddy.
Then came the Senior Luncheon slide show. For the first half, whoever made it put a picture of me in board shorts and a (non-skimpy) bikini top on every other slide. It was at a class picnic and I was grilling and I was hot and unaware of the camera, otherwise I would have kept my tee shirt on. Ha, ha, it’s just a joke, but that was one of the only pictures of me shown. I worked very hard in high school and none of it made it into the slide show but my “awesome rack.”
It was both better and worse in college. It was the first time I encountered militant feminists and, boy, did they not like me. I was called everything from a “stupid slut” to a “vapid Barbie” (which I couldn’t figure out because I wasn’t blonde). It wasn’t just the MFs who thought I was stupid – one calc. professor told me to drop his class and forget pre-med because a “girl like me” doesn’t need to have such a hard major.
When I met and married Andrew, I got hostility from a lot of my single friends. They were outraged if I complained about anything, because you shouldn’t have anything to complain about if you have a husband. This hurt me all the more because I wasn’t expecting it at all, especially from my friends. I also got a lot of contempt from classmates when I got engaged my senior year of college. They would “joke” that I was getting my MRS degree and would ask if I was even getting a job after graduation. Some of the MFs asked my why I had bothered to go to college at all and didn’t I know that I had stolen a space from someone who could have done something with a Columbia degree and I was setting the women’s cause back 50 years.
I can’t even be proud of my college education. I usually say that I went to college in New York if people ask where I went. If I mention that I went to Columbia, people talk about how lucky and privileged I am and “it must be nice to have a silver spoon in your mouth.” I earned a scholarship and worked 25-30 hours a week to put myself through – neither luck, nor privilege, nor silver spoons had anything to do with it.
My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie. I would trade everything I am or have so that Aerin could be healthy. Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most of your complaints can be summarized as follows: "I have been lucky. People have been jealous of my good fortune and have not always shared my priorities. Also, because I was attractive, they often assumed I was stupid or sexually available."
I wasn't going to get into this, because it's ultimately none of my business and I'm really afraid that my honest opinion is going to be hurtful to you. But you've actually invited comment, here, and this thread is in some large part targeted at comments I made earlier, so I may as well.
You've weathered a handful of real tragedies. But I think you also need to be aware of how overwhelmingly lucky you are that your memories of childhood pain only are of people who just didn't appreciate you completely.
Yeah, all tragedy is relative. But yours, even by the spoiled standards of the people on this forum, is not a story of woe.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
And most of your post can be summarized like so, "Your feelings are invalid because you have things I think are desireable."
Child abuse, abandonment by a parent, and sexual assualt do not make me overwhelmingly lucky. And I think you are too quick to dismiss how hurtful it can be when people assume you are stupid or slutty. Think how it would make you feel if people immediately assumed that you must have gotten your job because you performed sexual favors for your boss. How would you like it if people assumed you married Christy because she's pretty? Or how she would feel if people accused her of marrying your for your money?
You do remind me that I forgot to mention that I am very grateful for the many blessings I do have in life - my family's relative health, my happy marriage, my comfortable lifestyle. I certainly don't mean to imply that I feel like I've had a bad life. But I don't think it's right that I don't get to complain about the bad things that have happened to me because of my looks or education or marriage.
I also think that people need to keep things in perspective. So many people think, "If only I was thin, rich, pretty, large-chested, married, etc., I'd be happy. Plastic surgeons and dating services are multi-billion dollar industries because of it, but those things don't take away problems and they won't protect anyone from tragedy.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:This continued throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. I went on a lot of dates with a lot of boys and almost none of them were interested in my mind.
And you think this is unique to attractive developed women because.....? I am reminded of a scene in When Harry Met Sally
quote:Sally: That's not true, I have a number of men friends and there's is no sex involved.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman he finds attractive, he always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive.
Harry: Nuh, you pretty much wanna nail'em too.
In the immortal words of Dr. Zoidberg, "I kid I kid." I was just reminded of that scene.
I like this line from your post:
quote: Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
After reading your post, I find it hard to believe people can be so insensitive over your "fortune." I am not, however, a good looking, smart, wealthy woman. Is it possible any of these reactions could be the result of any behavior on your part? Just a question--not an accusation.
After reading about the 11 year old and 10 men, maybe I shouldn't give so many people the benefit of thedoubt.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: Also, because I was attractive, they often assumed I was stupid or sexually available."
How is this different from "Because I am obese, people assume I am lazy/slothful/unmotivated"?
And isn't that assumption a big part of what other people were complaining about in regards to attitudes about weight?
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Child abuse, abandonment by a parent, and sexual assualt do not make me overwhelmingly lucky.
As you didn't mention them in your above litany, they naturally weren't factored into my assessment. I can understand why each of those would factor into your reluctance to consider your attractiveness a net positive. That said, it still is a net positive.
I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade -- in the same way that it'd be surprising to run into a poor person who'd rather cope with their current problems than cope with the altogether less painful difficulties that come with having too much money.
Some problems (and sets of problems) are worse than others. Individual factors can exacerbate them, but I maintain that being really pretty does not bring with it anywhere near the crate of problems that get unloaded on people who are unattractive.
quote: How is this different from "Because I am obese, people assume I am lazy/slothful/unmotivated?"
Because for many of those people, being stupid and sexually available is socially attractive. In other words, that alone would not be a reason not to associate with her -- and, in theory, she could then eventually penetrate their presumption if she so chose. The assumptions made of fat people are never positive ones, and therefore fat people must exert a great deal more effort even to get people to stick around long enough to see through the first impression. That she was beating off people she didn't want to get to know with a stick is, IMO, far less irritating than desperately wishing someone would want to get to know her.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade
And yet, when people who have those things describe their hard work that was necessary to obtain them, they are considered insensitive. If people were really that interested in trading, many could do so.
You said it yourself in the other thread: the time you could spend exercising is more important to you for other things. You have, essentially, traded losing weight for something else. It's probably a good trade for you. But it's still a trade.
I've seen you dismiss two tales of pain caused by being thin now without even giving the tellers the benefit of the doubt.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade -- in the same way that it'd be surprising to run into a poor person who'd rather cope with their current problems than cope with the altogether less painful difficulties that come with having too much money.
Sometimes I wonder why it is you feel qualified or obligated to rank the importance of other peoples' problems. No one has it easy, and everyone is differently equipped to deal with the unique problems they face growing up. A childhood that might ruin one person might strengthen another.
So I think long and hard before marginalizing someone's experiences, just because they seem not that bad. I often hear people railing against entertainers and athletes who complain about the burdens of fame and public affection. You arguments about the positives of being good looking all apply to them to, yet I don't having any trouble empathizing.
I would hate having people interrupt my meals, follow my every move, constantly hound me for pictures and autographs, and generally harass me every minute of every day. And I constantly hear people dismissing the claims with some statement like, "That's what they get paid all that money for" or "They brought it on theirselves."
That is not an excuse. And just because someone has something you think you want is not reason to lash out at them.
Life is not easy. Not for anyone. No one escapes puberty unscathed. That's just the way of it.
And since I can never know exactly the burden someone else carries, I find it supremely arrogant for someone to judge it through their own set of experiences and deign it 'not that bad.'
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Frankly, I think it's always hard to be someone who stands out from the crowd, for any reason, at any point in one's life. It is particularly hard during puberty and adolescence.
This argument isn't really about fat and skinny, I don't think. It's about being differet. Fat people feel different from the people around them who they perceive to be more attractive. They are often treated differently because of their weight, and it's difficult. Mrs. M had a different kind of figure, but she was still singled out for it. It's a different type of attention, to be sure, but it's still negative, and still hurtful.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This and the other thread make me very thankful that the thing that makes my build stand out is not being excessively curvy or excessively over- or under- weight, but just large: naturally muscley, broad-shouldered, tall, big-boned, and just generally intimidating. No one *ever* made fun of me for *that*. Cept my friends, but only teasingly and only because they know I like them. I am lucky.
Course, finding a guy who I wouldn't accidentally hurt is slightly difficult
[edited for forgetting a key word]
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mrs. M I can relate to and empathize with alot of what you've said. It can be difficult to have something that other people want. I wasnt wealthy growing up, but we had more money than most of my friends. I didnt have a "perfect" body, but was relatively skinny with a ridiculously large chest that garnered me attention I didnt want. I was smart and sassy, but I had alot of guy "friends" who I couldnt really trust and female "friends" who didnt actually like me. And I got alot of the same reactions from people that you did. Jealousy isnt a fun thing to be on the recieving end of.
quote: Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
I agree with this, but only to a certain extent. I do actually think , in the context of this discussion, that some situations are more worthy(thats not the exact right word, but I cant think of a better one right now) of sympathy than others. Even though I hated alot of the crap that came along with my specific situation, I would NEVER have traded it for being heavily overweight. Do you know why? Even though people assumed I was stupid and over-sexed because of my breasts, and spoiled because of my family, I was still treated better than any "fat" person I knew. I was aware of this from a very young age. I got more respect, and was treated with more kindness, than my overweight friends. Yeah, being thought of as stupid sucks. But it was easy to change peoples opinions about me because I already had the advantage of being "normal". Well, relatively normal. I've always thought of it as a luxory that I had done nothing to deserve, but for which I was very grateful. People who are overweight more often than not dont have the advantage of being considered "normal". Therefore, it is incredibly difficult for them to challenge and change the first impression that most people get of them. They are treated "differently" in a way that we(the general we) will most likely never experience. So while I can understand what you are trying to say, that everyone has problems and there shouldnt be more sympathy given to one over the other, I dont really agree with it. I think that, in this world, people who are treated like crap because of the way they look or how much they weigh will always be more deserving of my sympathy for the simple fact that what they are going through is harder than anything I ever went through. I'm NOT saying that what you went through is something to be scoffed at as being easy in comparison to something else. I dont know you, and I dont really know what you went through, so I wouldnt presume to judge. And it sounds like you were really hurt by peoples additude twords you and what you had to endure with your family. But, again in the context of this discussion, I dont think it's a fair comparison to make.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Eve is basically fit and at the perfect weight for her. I am 50 pounds overweight. Were we to "trade" so that she weighed 25 pounds more (scaling to keep things proportional) and I 50 pounds less, the "trade" would last at most three years. Because she'd be back down to her current weight and I'd be back up to mine, unless we both made some significant changes in our life. Keeping our relative bodies after a trade involves the same lifestyle change as acquiring them without a trade would.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks, Mrs. M for bringing the issue to light. Too many people are ignorant to our circumstances (specifically, having large breasts).
Until they have been in our shoes they will never understand our feelings of shame, self-loathing, embarrasment, and fear. The fear that these men will take it a step further than propositions and catcalls and move on to violence. Nothing can compare to the feeling of watching a man "drink you up" with his gaze to make you feel filthy.
You want nothing more than to stop them from calling you names that make you cry and ask your self "what's wrong with me?" I cannot understand why people think it's ok to treat me like that because I am a D-cup.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think some people may have missed the point of Mrs. M's post. She's not saying "pity me", but rather "think a little more before you scorn others for having it so easy". At least, that's the way I understand her. And really, when have you known Mrs. M to be anything but gracious and generous and kind to everyone here, always giving people the benefit of the doubt? I don't see this as her whining that she has it worse than others, at all! She's saying the exact opposite, in fact. She's saying that no matter what your circumstances are, you should never lash out at someone because you assume they have it much easier than you do.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, Ms. M, but it seems to me that you are being misread, to a certain extent. Am I right? I agree completely with what (I think) you are saying.
A long time ago, possibly a couple of years, you posted something I meant to comment on, but never did. You'd been a houseguest at a friends house, and another houseguest, before even meeting you had been extremely nasty just because she saw you had several beauty products with you.
It made a huge impression on me because I could easily have been that other houseguest. I tend to assume that people won't like me, the dislike that I attribute to them increases proportionally to how much "better" I perceive them to be than I am. A response I often develop is to strike preemptively. Thus making it hurt a little less when they turn out to not like me.
Your post made me realize something that had honestly never occured to me before. That I might actually hurt them by this behavior. I had just assumed that they were so far above me that nothing I could do would have any kind of effect on them. It was a very important lesson for me. I've tried, since I read that post, to assume people start out liking me. That I don't need to defend myself because it was the defense that was making them dislike me. It's hard, it doesn't come naturally to me. And I was due for a reminder.
The above probably doesn't make any sense. I haven't read the thread this was in response to, so I can't comment on that. But what I wanted to get across was my thanks. Your posts have made me a better person.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dags, you are assuming your genetic tendencies and Eve's (or whoever is doing this imaginary trade) are roughly equal. That is not always a fair assumption.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've had a remarkably gifted life. I have had it easy. I'm smart, physically fit, well educated, have a good job, make friends easily, and people of the opposite sex often find me attractive.
What other reason would you need to hate someone? I must be such a bad person because I've been remarkably lucky. I can't offer up stories of the rough times I've had and therefore make you feel bad about disliking someone who's had it rough too. I haven't had it rough. The worst I can offer is some pretty major insomnia, that I've partially learned to deal with.
If you're going to hate someone for being smarter than you, or more attractive, or happier, or better educated, or having more money, or having had an easier life, I'm your guy. I have no idea what hating me will bring you, but I'm offerring myself up in the hopes that this will bring you what you need.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that 'suck' is relative to the person involved... We all have different thresholds of livability. What is okay with one person may be unbearable for the next. Each person grows, changes and develops at a different rate and plateau. It is up to us to accept and love ourselves, then make the best of the life we've been given.
I haven't scrutinized each post on here, only a few. What I learned from them is that all of us should realize that our Neighbors have all undergone hardships we may never know of and so we should not fault them for their blessings.
Thank You for the lesson I learned.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm glad for you. My hope is that if hardships do come your way, you have the strength to handle them - or at least good companions to help you through.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:It's a different type of attention, to be sure, but it's still negative...
Well, no. It's actually mainly positive attention, but unwanted positive attention. That's the difference, in fact, as I see it.
quote:I must be such a bad person because I've been remarkably lucky.
You know, it occurs to me that no one -- on either of the threads that've touched on this topic -- has said this. Is this where the lucky people whine about how they feel underappreciated for being lucky? I mean, seriously, are those people out there who've been blessed with positive attributes really starving for a place to complain about how much harder having advantages has been?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sexual harrassment because of your looks has to be so much funnier, so much more positive than being despised because of your looks. (Just in case someone couldn't say, I was being ironic)
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And yet I guarantee you that the majority of people out there do not sexually harass an attractive person. There are in fact numerous studies which show that attractive people are treated overwhelmingly better in all cases and in all categories. That you have a few outliers who'll mistreat you is certainly no different than the experience of the unattractive; what is different is that the unattractive don't then have the experience of having everyone else in the world treat them better.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
And yet I can guarantee you that the minority of persons who will harras a big-busted girl is enough to make her life very miserable and full of fear.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also keep in mind that you can be big-busted and not pretty. I was very lonely in high school.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
From your time here on Hatrack I do believe I've come to know you a bit, and I have been impressed with what I've found. You are intelligent, caring, a good listener, and friendly.
Growing up we had a neighbor who's cousin would come over a play with us. It was great in 4th and 5th grade, as she was good at hide and seek etc.
In 6th grade the guys I hung out with started talking about her as the prettiest girl in the school. She had developed a chest. I never noticed. I did notice how that development, and the response of the guys in our class, effected her.
They were impressed when I mentioned we'd played together for years. (No sexual innuendo was put into that, as I explained the details of what that play was). I was surprised that this impressed them.
I was short, unathletic, and a bit bookish and messy. The vagaries of class scheduling and friendships never put us together, and we never got close. Yet I have witnessed from a distance much of what you describe.
I am a very lucky person. My parents are still married after 40 years, still deeply in love. They care for me and my family with unlimited affection. I am even lucky in my flaws. I am overweight, balding, and still a bit bookish and sloppy. I worked with several women of questionable morals, and got close to them without fear of endagering my marriage. Such a woman looking for an affair would not be looking at me, nor would she try to tempt me.
When I was a child I came up with my first rule of life, and it basically explains everyone's reaction to your post, and possibly your need to post it here.
"So many seek to be understood. So few bother to understand."
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Dags, you are assuming your genetic tendencies and Eve's (or whoever is doing this imaginary trade) are roughly equal. That is not always a fair assumption.
Of course not. It's very likely true in the particular example I used, though. And the larger point - that simply "trading" requires more than suddenly being thin/smart/whatever the desirable trait it, but also a change in what you do - still stands.
I made no claims about it being easy. I made no claims that anybody can achieve a particular level of fitness.
The notion of "trading with you in a heartbeat" is simplistic and unrealistic as to be utterly useless. We've seen lots of people say "I'm not going to spend two hours at the gym to look like that." Fine - an admirable sentiment, I believe. But that means those people aren't actually willing to trade with the other person.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:But that means those people aren't actually willing to trade with the other person.
Only if the other person spends two hours a day at the gym, of course.
-------------
quote:Also keep in mind that you can be big-busted and not pretty.
Absolutely. In fact, while I've refrained from nitpicking, many of the things that Mrs. M cited as bad memories of her youth would have been worse, IMO, if she'd been unattractive. If large breasts, for example, count as an attention-drawing "deformity," think how much worse it'd be to have large breasts but also be ugly, so that the only attention you receive at all is for your breasts; how much pressure must such a girl be under TO become a "slut?" To not just have people assume she's slutty and stupid as a consequence of large breasts, but slutty and stupid AND slovenly and lazy and all the other assumptions that we know come with being unattractive?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
First we get the I'm-a-victim-because-I'm-fat thread. Then we get the I'm-a-victim-because-I'm-rich-and-beautiful thread. I understand Mrs M's point that even the most privileged persons suffer, and don't condemn anyone no matter how they look. I only know Mrs. M from this one post, but, with all due respect, her tale of woe based on disparate events and shows a lack of perspective. All of the childhood and college incidents she described could have been a lot worse. (Based on how intelligent she sounds, I suspect that she appreciates all the good in her life and that all the bad is outweighed by the good, but the post leaves a different impression on me.)
Her abuse and family health history have noting to do with her looks. Ugly people also get discriminated against. Flat-chested women also get sexually assaulted. She makes her friends sound like a bunch of jealous Nellie’s, and they probably are, but its not uncommon to find successful, wealthy, good looking people who are the subject of envy and ridicule, even from other successful, good-looking people. I bet some of her tormentors were also good looking and rich. Has Mrs. M considered that her friends, I hesitate to use the word, who mocked her were probably the victims of some deep seeded insecurities of their own? Perhaps they mocked her college education because they felt inadequate as to their own successes? Where’s the sympathy for them?
Everyone will be disrespected at some time. Most of us will feel underappreciated at some time. Point is: we’d all be better off if we treat everyone with respect, keep a sense of perspective, and stop whining.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Large breasts might be uncharitably considered a "deformity" for the purposes of discussing negative attention. And like anyone with a "deformity" -- freckly people, people with big eyes, people with cleft lips, really tall people, people who appear unhealthily thin -- you'll stand out and attract some unwelcome attention. But if you have a "deformity" and are otherwise physically attractive, you will have an easier time of it than someone who has such a deformity and does not. (This is why a large-breasted and ugly girl, or a thin and ugly girl, or even a girl who's flat-out ugly for no particular reason, will have a harder time of it.)
One of the interesting side-effects of being fat is that obesity, as a condition, pretty much eliminates (for all but a handful of fetishists) the possibility of being found physically attractive (and I'm excluding here the kind of attraction people can learn to form based on emotional ties). You can be attractive and have large breasts. You can be attractive and freckled. You can "even" be attractive with a cleft lip, or with your ribs sticking through your skin. It is much, much harder to be attractive when fat, based on modern standards of attractiveness that specifically exclude fat people from that standard.
And lest you doubt me on that one, ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a fat character in a movie not be either a bad guy or the comic relief? When did a fat guy get the girl, when it wasn't meant to be a joke? We're seeing a trend now when fat women are portrayed semi-positively in the media; this trend has been aggressively pushed by some groups (including Oprah) specifically to "reclaim" the possibility of fat people being attractive.
How necessary is it for the large-breasted to lobby Hollywood to portray large-breasted women as attractive? How many thin people are unable to find thin role models?
Fat = ugly, in a way that large-breasted/thin/one-legged does not. Even people who've been the victims of horrible industrial accidents at least are given the consideration that, hey, at least they didn't do it to themselves. And "ugly" = miserable, in general.
--------
My point here is that, while everyone has problems, it is not a truism that all problems are equally serious. And moreover that some conditions -- like attractiveness -- carry costs which are almost always outweighed by their enormous benefits.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:There are in fact numerous studies which show that attractive people are treated overwhelmingly better in all cases and in all categories.
I treat attractive people overwhelmingly better in almost all cases and in almost all categories.
________
Edit:
I will say that there have been times, years on end, when I've purposefully made myself unattractive because I didn't want the attention. When I have a lot on my mind, it's nice to be left alone, but I always knew that a shave, hair-cut, and different clothes would make me presentable in under an hour.
I'm sympathetic to Mrs. M's case because it's hard to hide an outstanding womanly figure, and I know a few woman who have spent their adolescent and college years trying. Having been both ugly and dashing, I can say that having the choice is by far the superior circumstance because each level of attractiveness brings its own headaches, and I like to be able to pick my poisons.
posted
And you're not in the minority. Hell, even while I'm complaining about it, I am fully aware that I treat attractive people better. It actually takes a conscious effort on my part for me to not do this.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie.
quote:You know, it occurs to me that no one -- on either of the threads that've touched on this topic -- has said this. Is this where the lucky people whine about how they feel underappreciated for being lucky? I mean, seriously, are those people out there who've been blessed with positive attributes really starving for a place to complain about how much harder having advantages has been?
Perhaps I was too subtle. For the record, I'm not complaining. I don't care if people hate me or dislike me, at least for something like this. I am genuinely blessed and I see no reasons to complain about my life whatsoever. I was not the focus of my posts.
Rather, it's this idea:
quote:What I learned from them is that all of us should realize that our Neighbors have all undergone hardships we may never know of and so we should not fault them for their blessings.
and what it implies.
If I have been largely hardship free, is it okay and is it helpful in any way for people to fault me for my blessings?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think, Mrs. M, that it is hard for a lot of people who have had similar misfortune and less luck to drum up a lot of sympathy for you. I don't say that to belittle what you've gone through. Nobody deserves to be sexually harassed, nobody deserves to be judged solely on their appearance (although, to be honest, I'd be surprised if the latter isn't something that everyone on the board hasn't experienced to some degree or another). So when they look at your post and see that they've gone through many of the same/similar things, but they were not wealthy/beautiful/married to a wonderful person it's very hard to feel too sympathetic. Perhaps that's a failing on their part, and perhaps it's unfair to ask you to be sensitive to it, but I think it's a reality.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know one of the things I like best about Mrs. M? I love how she is gracious. I love how when other people experience good fortune, she congratulates them on it. And as I have probably less of a filter on my mouth than I should have, I appreciate and admire how she hasn't let the dismissal of her experiences goad her into a reprisal of dismissing others'.
I think everyone has really great and really crummy things happen to them. The really great things are fabulous, but they don't make the really crummy things go away. Mentioning the great things in the same breath isn't an attempt to say the great things are to be lamented, but rather an attempt to keep a balanced view of the world - no matter how crummy some things are, they are not the sum of existence.
quote: My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie.
Right. Being attractive and educated doesn't prevent child abuse, parental illness, or infertility. But why should it?
I think there are two different, closely related statements being made on this thread, and part of the hurt feelings and confusion are coming from not knowing who's making which argument. There's the statement "attractive people also have problems," which I think everyone would agree with, and there's the statement "being attractive is a problem" which I'm not sure whether anyone is making, but I know some people are reacting to.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
One of the interesting side-effects of being fat is that obesity, as a condition, pretty much eliminates (for all but a handful of fetishists) the possibility of being found physically attractive (and I'm excluding here the kind of attraction people can learn to form based on emotional ties).
On the flip side, why is it men who happen to not like being with thin girls are considered fethishists?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dkw: I think there are two different, closely related statements being made on this thread, and part of the hurt feelings and confusion are coming from not knowing who's making which argument. There's the statement "attractive people also have problems," which I think everyone would agree with, and there's the statement "being attractive is a problem" which I'm not sure whether anyone is making, but I know some people are reacting to.
While I agree with this, I think the statement has also been made "attractive people would find their problems worse if they were also unattractive," which to me is both belittling and impossible to know or prove.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mrs.M, you had it worse than I did. I think it's despicable how people treated you because of the way that you look. Honestly, I think the part that I hated the most was that people automatically assumed that you're stupid. Being considered intelligent is really important to me. I'm glad you worked hard and proved them wrong. People didn't treat me too badly for being overweight, even in high school. I wasn't popular and some people didn't want to be my friend because of my size, but why would I want to be friends with them anyway? I had very good friends in high school, and I certainly wouldn't trade them in for the popular kids.
So I would venture that some things CAN be worse than being fat. It's all relative.
And really, this thread is making most of you seen really insane.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
