quote:So being fat is worse than being abused? How do you know?
Absolutely not. But being unattractive doesn't preclude someone from being assaulted. In fact, I think being unattractive makes it easier to be.
quote:If her cousin's friend had been successful in his attempt to rape her, would she have some browner grass then?
Again, these things didn't happen solely because she was attractive, they just happened to befall an attractive person. The things specific to attractive, privileged people she mentioned--scorn, envy, and ridicule because of said advantages--are much "greener" than the plights on the underprivileged and/or the unattractive.
Yes, even being almost assaulted sucks. But to assume (which I don't think she did) it doesn't happen to people of less than average attractiveness in naive and condescending.
[edit to add: I don't mean to belittle Mrs. M's hardships, just point out that the hardship that is nearly inherent to privelege and non-unattractiveness is not worse than the opposite. The stuff that happens to both just sucks in general.]
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quote:The things specific to attractive, priveledged people she mentioned--scorn, envy, and ridicule because of said advantages--are much "greener" than the plights on the underpriveledged and/or the unattractive.
Yes, but she wasn't only speaking of the things specific to her advantages. Maybe her conclusion bears repeating:
quote:My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie. I would trade everything I am or have so that Aerin could be healthy. Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
She's not saying she deserves sympathy and compassion because her good fortune didn't extend to protect her from some very bad crap. She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Tom's continual insistence that it would be worse had she not had those advantages - which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face - is like walking up to someone after their dog dies and saying, "at least you can afford to buy another one."
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The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
quote:She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Well, duh. True for everybody in every situation. Nobody can be protected from everything.
quote:which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face
My point being, every female faces these things. Had she had fewer friends, she may have been raped. Less self-respect/confidence, she may have given in to be cool. And just as humans have a tendency to bully smaller and smaller people down the line, so, too, do less attractive (and just as horny) young males abuse less attractive women. Unattractive women rarely go wholly unassaulted, and often lack the gumption to do something about it
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And lest you doubt me on that one, ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a fat character in a movie not be either a bad guy or the comic relief? When did a fat guy get the girl, when it wasn't meant to be a joke? We're seeing a trend now when fat women are portrayed semi-positively in the media; this trend has been aggressively pushed by some groups (including Oprah) specifically to "reclaim" the possibility of fat people being attractive.
Not a movie but how about sitcoms such as According to Jim and King of Queens ?
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quote:The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
The title, which refers to the entire post, says the grass isn't always greener. And it's true. Surely you'll admit that some overweight people have better lives than some attractive people.
Her opening line is "All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have. People have been very cruel and ugly to me and have felt completely virtuous and justified doing so."
Unless you're going to doubt her statement, this is true. And note, it doesn't say that this taken alone is worse than what the average overweight person suffers.
quote:My point being, every female faces these things.
It can certainly happen to any female. But it doesn't.
Mrs.M's post wasn't in response to people saying fat people had it tough. It was in response to callous disregard and refusal to take people at face value that they had been hurt terribly for being too thin.
It's not just that her pain has been denied. It's that it's been continually miscast by certain people. And that one type of pain has been used as an excuse for inflicting another type.
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quote:Originally posted by Frisco: The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
quote:She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Well, duh. True for everybody in every situation. Nobody can be protected from everything.
quote:which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face
My point being, every female faces these things. Had she had fewer friends, she may have been raped. Less self-respect/confidence, she may have given in to be cool. And just as humans have a tendency to bully smaller and smaller people down the line, so, too, do less attractive (and just as horny) young males abuse less attractive women. Unattractive women rarely go wholly unassaulted, and often lack the gumption to do something about it
I was writing out my own response to Dag, but (surprisingly) Eddie said it better than I had. Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish -- in fact, I'd argue they're the ones with the greatest circles of friends, both women and men seeking favor and offering friendship and protection. If anyone's at risk, it's the less attractive girl seeking desperately to a) have a boyfriend, b) raise her self-esteem, c) fit in, and d) make no enemies. My guess is Mrs. M enjoyed far more protection than most of her uglier friends had, and had (or could have, if she wished it) far more sympathy for and attention paid to her woes than an ugly woman would have.
I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough. But it's not because of her beauty, and you seem to tie the two together. It's not a choice between being beautiful and assaulted or ugly and untouched. What Mrs. M's gone through is terrible, but she'd probably have suffered a lot more of it, without nearly as much comfort or care, if she'd been ugly.
Beautiful people can have worse lives than ugly people, yes -- but if they do, it's rarely because they're beautiful. If ugly people have better lives than beautiful people, it's almost certainly not because they're ugly. To draw a comparison between the two and declare them equally difficult lifestyles is asinine.
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quote:Originally posted by Lalo: If you're ugly, not only will you have relatively little (if any) attention, but if you ever do have a man, it's not unlikely he'll treat you with contempt and constantly try to "trade up," particularly if there's no binding commitment.
You think awfully poorly of your own gender, Lalo. And that and this:
quote: If you were ugly, you'd have to pursue men for any sort of romance. You'd often (usually, even) be unsuccessful, and what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Are both not true for many women and incredibly insulting. Especially since "unattractive" has been linked pretty strongly in these threads with "overweight." Do you really want to tell every overweight married woman on this board that their husband doesn't really love them and is just waiting to trade up?
Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
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quote: Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish
Nobody's done this.
quote:I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough.
No, where you're falling short is assuming I think you've stated she hasn't had it rough. The fact that you do think she's had it rough is what makes your response so bafflingly callous.
Mrs.M told a painful story of how her looks contributed to some very painful memories. Why, why, why do you feel it necessary to tell her it could be worse?
Do you think she doesn't know that? And, do you think being heavier is the worst thing that could be different in her life?
No, you don't think either of those things. So why respond to a painful story with "at least you're not fat." It's asinine.
quote:But it's not because of her beauty, and you seem to tie the two together.
No, it's you two tying them together, except for the part where her attacker tied them together. Maybe he would have still attacked her had she looked different. But she was told it was because she really wanted it, because of how she looked. When she was 10 years old!
For crying out loud, you two are telling an attempted rape victim she should be grateful she's not fat! Why does the inappropriateness of this need explanation?
quote:it's rarely because they're beautiful.
See, you're tying them together again. Why?
quote:To draw a comparison between the two and declare them equally difficult lifestyles is asinine.
And she didn't do that.
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quote:Originally posted by Lalo: If you're ugly, not only will you have relatively little (if any) attention, but if you ever do have a man, it's not unlikely he'll treat you with contempt and constantly try to "trade up," particularly if there's no binding commitment.
You think awfully poorly of your own gender, Lalo. And that and this:
quote: If you were ugly, you'd have to pursue men for any sort of romance. You'd often (usually, even) be unsuccessful, and what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Are both not true for many women and incredibly insulting. Especially since "unattractive" has been linked pretty strongly in these threads with "overweight." Do you really want to tell every overweight married woman on this board that their husband doesn't really love them and is just waiting to trade up?
Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
I speak only for what I've seen. And I have, consistently, witnessed less attractive women treated with less respect and care than prettier women -- to more than a slight degree, I think many people judge women's worth by their appearance.
But I should clarify, I don't think this is true of couples in love -- my experience is with dating, not marriage, and most of the couples I've witnessed have been toying at affection as a means to sex or companionship. Marriage, I think, is a different matter. I'm all but officially engaged to my girlfriend, and more than a few of our conversations have been wistful hopes for forty years from now, when we're fat and old and in love, and can look back on a life spent together. Once couples get past initial impressions and get to know the person, I'm of the opinion that's worth more than the shallow dating I've witnessed so far.
But I do feel bad for women trapped in the dating world, since I've seen too many exploited for their loneliness and thrown aside. I don't think men suffer the same judging -- in fact, given certain basic qualities such as hygiene, I'm not sure male appearance matters at all relative to personality and humor. Most of the fat guys in high school, provided they were charismatic and likable, had gorgeous girlfriends.
I'm attracted to humor and personality, and I fell in love with my girlfriend for those exact qualities. But many men, particularly around my age, prefer sex to love, and take advantage of women who don't. Often, that's a woman unused to and flattered by attention. My apologies if I've given the wrong impression, but this is a sensitive subject for me -- one of my closest friends gave her virginity to a guy on her prom night because she didn't know if anyone else would ever want her, and never heard from him again, even when she was aborting his child.
I don't like how women are treated by the vast majority of men, and I'm not going to put it in fuzzier terms to appear less pessimistic about people's quality.
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Right, but those couples in love started out. . . dating. And plenty of them were already fat when they met their future spouses. So it's not really a "different matter."
I completely agree with you that there's a lot of jerks out there, among males and females both, as well as plenty of people with low self-esteem for them to prey on. But just like we can't say that all obese people are so because they're lazy or all thin people are so because they have an eating disorder, we also can't say that no one can love an ugly woman. Because it's just not true, regardless of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Harder for them to find love? Sure. But no where near impossible.
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quote: Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish
Nobody's done this.
quote:I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough.
No, where you're falling short is assuming I think you've stated she hasn't had it rough. The fact that you do think she's had it rough is what makes your response so bafflingly callous.
Mrs.M told a painful story of how her looks contributed to some very painful memories. Why, why, why do you feel it necessary to tell her it could be worse?
Do you think she doesn't know that? And, do you think being heavier is the worst thing that could be different in her life?
No, you don't think either of those things. So why respond to a painful story with "at least you're not fat." It's asinine.
What? Dag, Mrs. M put her story forward to contrast it against the fat thread -- to prove that it's every bit as difficult to be beautiful as it is to be fat.
quote:The fat discrimination and rights thread brought up some issues for me and I thought they would be more appropriate for a separate thread.
All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have.
She's arguing the trials of beauty, not the nightmares of rape. And people are responding to that thesis, not disparaging her nightmarish experiences with sexual assault.
I'm truly sorry she had to suffer an attack -- I don't say that casually; I know of no greater crime, and I wish I could have been there to protect her -- but you're trying to twist her point from beautiful vs. fat to rape vs. fat. If it comes down to the latter, I certainly agree, rape is by far the greater torture -- but that's not the case Mrs. M was arguing, and not the case anyone's disagreeing with.
I submit, as I have many times before in this thread, that being beautiful is, in almost every respect, easier than being ugly. This is what's been put forward, time and time again. Nobody has dismissed rape as a lighter punishment than fat, and if you truly believe that, you haven't been reading any replies on this thread.
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I think that when faced with this sort of personal story, with details and specific circumstances, it is remarkably unhelpful and irrelevant to nitpick and say, "It would have been worse if..." when speaking about such hugely important (in terms of human interactions things like physical attractiveness.
It's unhelpful and unnecessary because social interactions aren't like astronomy and physics. You can't just take out this body and remove its gravitational pull, do some very clever mathematics and say, "OK, this is the new orbit of this thing, without this other thing here to interfere."
You can, at best, guess in a ham-fisted way at what would have happened. If Mrs. M's physical appearance had been unattractive, would her experiences have been different? That depends on what her attackers were motivated by, in what degrees, doesn't it? What if, for example, her cousin had hated her for years due to some imagined slight and wanted to dominate her as revenge? Perhaps then her physical appearance would not have made much difference at all.
We can't know one way or the other. I remain firmly convinced that to believe that, in general the problems faced by the wealthy and attractive are as serious as those faced by the poor and ugly is a product of amazing naivete, in particular it is unhelpful and even a little insulting.
Just like it can be easier to predict what 1,000,000,000 people will do than what one person will do. Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for sharing your story, Mrs. M. I am happy for you that despite the awful things which have happened to you in the past, you've managed to find happiness in the present.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Right, but those couples in love started out. . . dating. And plenty of them were already fat when they met their future spouses. So it's not really a "different matter."
I completely agree with you that there's a lot of jerks out there, among males and females both, as well as plenty of people with low self-esteem for them to prey on. But just like we can't say that all obese people are so because they're lazy or all thin people are so because they have an eating disorder, we also can't say that no one can love an ugly woman. Because it's just not true, regardless of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Harder for them to find love? Sure. But no where near impossible.
And I never questioned that. Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
I think many less attractive women have fewer options and often lonelier lives than more attractive women, unless they have a particularly interesting personality. I know many men think this, and treat these women disrespectfully, if not with outright contempt, and I think this is a quantifiably more difficult lifestyle than that of a woman with many suitors. Nowhere do I endorse this treatment -- but I do acknowledge it exists, and I'm willing to point to the phenomenon as an example of the more difficult trials of ugliness vs. beauty.
My girlfriend tricked me, actually. She's very pretty, but she was tired of men constantly pursuing her for that -- so she told me she had a skin disorder that would make her hideous by the time she was thirty. If I was going to be with her, I would have to love her despite her looks. I didn't care, and I fell in love with her humor and personality not caring about what she looks like.
It was a lie, but in truth, I wouldn't give a damn if it weren't. I love her for her, not for what she looks like. Please never mistake my opinion this badly again.
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Low self-esteem robs both the person and the people who love them. It is insidious.
Blaming someone for their low self-esteem rarely raises their self-esteem. Nor does telling them to fix it.
The only thing better than loving someone despite their flaws is loving them regardless of their flaws.
If I had my life to live over, I'd hope to screw it up just enough to get to exactly where I am anyway. But no more.
If life isn't an adventure, then there simply are no adventures worth the name.
I feel terribly sad to think that someone would miss an opportunity for love because they were holding out for something better. There is nothing better.
Finally, I think some of that is relevant to this thread. As for the rest, forgive me, I just finished watching Rushmore and my perceptions are a little screwy.
Edit to add:
Extra finally: If your wife is craving a slushy, don't waste your time posting about love on a web-based bulletin board. Go get the DARN SLUSHY!!!!
quote: Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
It sure sounds like you did:
quote:what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
quote:What? Dag, Mrs. M put her story forward to contrast it against the fat thread -- to prove that it's every bit as difficult to be beautiful as it is to be fat.
Where did she attempt to show it's "every bit as difficult"? Not in the words you've quoted, certainly. Please identify, explicitly, where she made this contention in her opening post.
quote:but you're trying to twist her point from beautiful vs. fat
Her point wasn't "beautiful v. fat." You're doing more than twisting here. Her point was that beautiful does not mean no pain.
In response to some repeated attempts to trivialize the pain felt by two people.
quote:I submit, as I have many times before in this thread, that being beautiful is, in almost every respect, easier than being ugly.
Again, so? You're arguing against stuff that I'm not saying. I'm not sure why, but if you feel you must, do so when you're not quoting me, OK?
I also submit that if all you know about two people is how beautiful they are, you do not know who has a better or happier life.
quote:Nobody has dismissed rape as a lighter punishment than fat, and if you truly believe that, you haven't been reading any replies on this thread.
I read the thread. I responded to a specific post, one that flat out said that Mrs.M's grass is greener than poor unattractive persons'. And not poor unattractive persons who have also been attacked or abused.
That post managed to do the very thing Mrs.M wrote this thread about - to look at a person, see a few attributes, and automatically assume that her problems weren't as serious as an overweight person's.
It's been done repeatedly in this thread.
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Dag, that's like saying that winning the lottery isn't in general a good thing because some individual who won the lottery got hit by a car and killed shortly thereafter. His hypothetical death certainly made his lottery winnings less useful to him, but his lottery winnings weren't a factor in his misfortune.
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quote:Dag, that's like saying that winning the lottery isn't in general a good thing because some individual who won the lottery got hit by a car and killed shortly thereafter. His hypothetical death certainly made his lottery winnings less useful to him, but his lottery winnings weren't a factor in his misfortune.
Did she say it wasn't a good thing? No. She said it resulted in specific, identifiable pain in her life. She said that it won't protect you from other types of pain.
What you've been doing is akin to going up to the widow of the guy who died and saying, "At least you won the lottery."
And let me be clear on this: Yes, someone whose husband has just died who is also rich is better off than someone whose husband just died but who isn't rich, assuming everything else is the same. That doesn't mean that saying such a thing to that widow wouldn't be an atrociously insensitive thing to do.
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quote: Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
It sure sounds like you did:
quote:what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Actually, I can understand how that can be misinterpreted -- it was poorly written. The point I was trying to convey was that I've witnessed, quite often, men taking advantage of a woman's sweetness and naiveness. No matter how loving they are, women are pretty often used and thrown aside. The above is actually a blow-by-blow summary of several of my friends' experiences, and I have good reason to believe it's not a phenomenon limited to these few women.
My apologies if I really led anyone to believe less attractive women can't be loved. It's not what I was trying to say.
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See, I don't think you think that, Lalo. I think you said that. I think you frequently indulge in hyperbole because you like the way it sounds, and go spouting off crap that you don't really mean without considering what you're actually saying. Hence the last paragraph of my first post addressed to you in this thread:
quote: Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
Added: I wrote this before seeing your last post. I'm glad you realize now how what you said sounded. I don't suppose you'll be apologizing to me for all the crap in your other post?
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I've come to the conclusion that a person's happiness is pretty much determined by the things that go on inside that person's head and/or mind. The greeness of the grass is in the head of the person perceiving it. Everything else (body, wealth, success, health, etc.) influences it indirectly at most. For that reason, because I don't think there is any way to really know what goes on in someone else's mind, I don't think it makes much sense to speculate who is happier than whom.
And I don't think it is productive; at least in my case it only seems to make me less happy. I think it is better to appreciate the circumstances of others, and to try and figure out how to be happy with any circumstance, whatever it may be, rather than trying to figure out which circumstances you wish you'd have. That's my thought on the matter.
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I think Dag hit it on the head. A lot of people in the other thread were talking like being thin/beautiful was a panacea that would cure everything that was wrong with them. Mrs. M stated more than once that she knew things could have been worse, but that she was tired of people assuming that her life was perfect because of her figure and situation in life.
She was trying to show that there can be a down side to being thin and beautiful that some people refuse to admit, and that being beautiful isn't a cure-all.
I have a female friend who eats like a horse, isn't and is so thin that people she doesn't even know lecture her on anorexia and bulimia. Tell me again how that isn't every bit as hard as what you go through daily, Tom.
Most of the time, Tom, I respect your opinion on things, even when I don't agree with you. You admit that most of what you go through was preventable, and that you just don't make losing weight a high enough priority....then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance.
After reading your thoughts on this I respect you a lot less...and it has nothing to do with your size or weight.
quote:then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance.
If this is all she's saying, then why the thread title and why the comparison to stuff in the fat thread? How can the thread title mean anything other than "You think attractive and privileged people have it better, but they don't."
That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier."
In both that theoretical discussion and this thread, the conclusion clearly isn't true.
Unless there's some interpretation of the phrase "The grass isn't greener" I'm not familiar with.
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I do think that the title was probably incomplete, and would better have read, "The grass isn't always greener."
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quote:If this is all she's saying, then why the thread title and why the comparison to stuff in the fat thread? How can the thread title mean anything other than "You think attractive and privileged people have it better, but they don't."
Did you read her post? It's one thing to think that's what she's saying just by reading the title. It's another thing to keep thinking that when she's been very explicit about what she is saying.
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier."
Frisco, that's a ridiculous comparison. No one "piped in." Tom explicitly ASKED if there was a stigma against being thin. There was some discussion about it that led to Mrs.M wanting to post her specific experiences, and she did so in a new thread.
Clearly, she overestimated Hatrack's civility and empathy.
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quote:I have a female friend who eats like a horse, isn't and is so thin that people she doesn't even know lecture her on anorexia and bulimia. Tell me again how that isn't every bit as hard as what you go through daily, Tom.
It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
And I'm speaking here as someone whose wife is very thin, so thin that people have assumed her entire life that she has an eating disorder, that she's practically unable to find clothes anywhere -- especially now that they've actually made Size 0 (for women) bigger to accomodate expanding waistlines. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the "thin" experience.
I'm saying -- and I'm saying this completely unapologetically -- that thin people, even very thin people, have it far easier than fat people, and especially very fat people.
Can anyone on this thread seriously question that statement? Not just say "Oh, that's a rude thing to observe," but actually claim that it's wrong?
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quote:then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance
This is specifically what I'm not doing. I suspect that it's what a lot of the people inflated with righteous ire here think I'm doing, though.
quote:It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
You don't know that, you can only say that for yourself, not for others.
I've said before, I used to work with a woman whose underweight condition contributed directly to her infertility, yet she was unable to gain weight and the doctors were baffled as to why. You going to tell me that being teased and ridiculed is worse than the pain of not being able to have children? You willing to trade Sophie for a thin figure?
You have no idea what some chronically underweight people have been through, it is impossible to just dismiss their pain as if it doesn't matter. Has anyone ever followed you into the bathroom to try and "catch" you throwing up? Told you you were a liar to your face when you denied being anorexic? Questioned our gender because you were so flat chested?
Your' not a woman, you may be married to one but you don't know what it's really like to be an extremely thin woman. Maybe Christy never was teased for her size, obviously she didn't suffer infertility, so perhaps she hasn't had any reason to think her thinness was a problem. But that doesn't mean that every thin woman on earth is like Christy.
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quote:Can anyone on this thread seriously question that statement? Not just say "Oh, that's a rude thing to observe," but actually claim that it's wrong?
quote:You have no idea what some chronically underweight people have been through, it is impossible to just dismiss their pain as if it doesn't matter.
It's worth noting that being so thin that you're sterile or on the immediate verge of death is equivalent to being so fat that you're sterile or on the verge of death. That you can get really, really fat before this happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means there's more lee-way on the high side of the spectrum. I certainly have an enormous amount of pity for anyone whose biology or eating habits is killing them.
quote:Has anyone ever followed you into the bathroom to try and "catch" you throwing up? Told you you were a liar to your face when you denied being anorexic? Questioned your gender because you were so flat chested?
Nope. But there are "fat-person" equivalents to all of these, and others besides.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Having experienced both the "big and early boob" thing - yes, including the creeps grabbing me in the hallways in middle school (I think the worst perpetrators ended up in prison) - and the fat/unattractive thing I will say that the unattractive thing (for me) is worse. As traumatic as it was to dread walking down the halls when I was 12, I grew out of it and eventually developed a sense of humour to "counter balance" the boobs.
Sitting at a family wedding - dateless again - as I did this weekend, knowing that I am likely to remain alone because only very extraordinary men* find me attractive enough to date, much less marry, is really hard - and only going to get harder as I get older and even less attractive. And to know that even if I were thinner I wouldn't be "pretty".
And I still have to deal with the boob thing.
This is not in any way to say that Ms M has had it easy or to minimize her pain. This is just to compare some my experiences to some of my other experiences.
*then again, I am only attracted to very extraordinary men.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I just wanted to pop in and let y'all know that I haven't forgotten or abandoned this thread. My mother came to visit yesterday and one of my cousins had a baby and I have Aerin, so I've been consumed by all that. I will reply later and clarify and expand things that I've written. There have been a lot of interesting points made. I really want to thank the people who have written such kind thing about me. Aerin's calling, so until later...
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Nope. But there are "fat-person" equivalents to all of these, and others besides.
I don't deny that. But you seem to have made the point that there are no equivalent to fat-person insults and slights. What some of us are trying to say is that there is pain and hurt on both sides, and you cannot make the claim that one is always worse than the other.
I find it funny that I'm defending the ultra thin - I've never been ultra-thin in my life. But I've had a lot of pain and suffering that when people looked at me on the outside, would never have imagined that I would have. I looked like someone that had it all, yet I have been physically abused, been affected by sexual abuse as a child, seen my stepfather hit my brother with a force strong enough to break his nose and no one in my family did anything about it, experienced being thrown against a wall and held there while my stepfather wrapped his hands around my neck and squeezed until I couldn't breathe.
My family from the outside was well off and looked like a "perfect" family and yes, at the time I was trim and healthy. Didn't stop me from suffering.
Saying you have it worse than others simply because you're heavy is to me, the height of self-centeredness. You have no idea how many people would gladly trade carrying around some extra pounds for the type of pain they've experienced. And saying to me "Well, hey at least when your stepfather was beating you and verbally abusing you you weren't fat" shows nothing but insensitivity and ignorance for what people in abuse situations really go through.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Saying you have it worse than others simply because you're heavy is to me, the height of self-centeredness.
Tom has never said that. What he's said, time and time again, is that on the whole, the difficulties that come from being heavy are worse than the difficult that come from being thin.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
And, more appropriately to this thread, the difficulties that come from being ugly are worse than the difficulties that come from being attractive.
And that since fat = unattractive in prevaling society, it's kind of a double-whammy.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Did you read her post? It's one thing to think that's what she's saying just by reading the title. It's another thing to keep thinking that when she's been very explicit about what she is saying.
I did read her post and I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
One person's worse-than-normal experience if being privileged and not unattractive does not provide any sort of real evidence that the grass isn't greener.
My point is that, all else being equal, the disadvantages of being poor and/or unattractive are far worse than the troubles of the opposite.
I'm definitely not saying that no single attractive privileged person can have it worse than their less well off counterparts; but in their case, they're a small patch of brown in a lawn full of green.
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frisco, that's a ridiculous comparison. No one "piped in." Tom explicitly ASKED if there was a stigma against being thin. There was some discussion about it that led to Mrs.M wanting to post her specific experiences, and she did so in a new thread.
How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Yes, bad things happen to the attractive and rich. Duh. Double duh. That doesn't make the grass on the whole lawn pale.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
All the 'studies' out there that show that good looking people have it better in every possible way than ugly people have some critical flaws.
1. First, there are numerous studies which have found the obvious, that looks make a far bigger difference for women than men. Ugly men, are very nearly as likely to be successful both professionally and socially as good looking men. The wage differential for obesity, for example, exists only among white women.
2. Good looks are a double edged sword for women. The studies I've seen compare people who have the same education and the same experience. What most of them fail to control for, is that how good looks influence your chances of being well educated. Good looking girls generally marry younger, have their first child at a younger age and are generally less likely to attend or complete a college education. All of those things, lead to lower incomes not higher.
Once you've made it into a professional career as a woman, you have to deal with the reality that no matter what else you do you will always be judged on your looks in a way that men aren't. When I was a graduate student, the first woman was elected to be president of the American Chemical Society and her picture was published on the front of C and E News. Every graduate student who saw her picture in my presence (both male and female), commented that she was ugly. I have never seen similar comments made about any male scientist and yet they are made routinely about unattractive female scientists and engineers.
On the flip side, if you happen to be an attractive sucessful professional woman, there will always be a group who discount all of your achievements assume that you used your good looks to get favors from the men in power.
I wasn't popular with the boys when I was a teenager. I wasn't happy about it at the time, but now that I'm a mature woman I consider it one of the best things that happened to me. If I had been really popular with the boys, it is very unlikely that I would have done most of things I've done. Among the women I know who are over 30, there is an overwhelming agreement that being good looking as a teenager, being very popular with teenage boys and getting large breasts at a young age are in the long term, a big disadvantage. I'm curious to know how many of the mature women here at hatrack share that opinion. It's clear the Mrs. M does.
All the women over 30 I know who have large breasts, hate it. They hate being oogled by men, they hate having to wear heavy duty bras for support, they hate the back problems, and so on. If so many women think having big boobs is a disadvantage, it is unfair tell them that their wrong. That they are just whiners who are complaining about something that is really positive.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Would you please read what people write?
Once again:
Tom asked if thin people were stigmatized in the other thread. Do you get that? Would you please acknowledge it if you do?
Mrs.M didn't start a counter thread. SHE ANSWERED SOMEONE'S QUESTION in that other thread. Then the conversation moved on to the point where Mrs.M was going to relate her experience - in response to repeated expressions of disbelief by Tom to the answers given TO HIS REQUEST. She did so in a new thread out of courtesy to the other thread.
I'll make your hypothetical more accurate for you:
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, someone asking in that thread if men go through anything similar, having two people answer the questions, having someone scoff and ask for more detail, having someone write a very personal post about the similar harm encountered, and then having two jokers pipe in and say, "How dare you!"
You chose the words you used in your hypo. You made the hypo sound like Mrs.M stormed in unprompted and related painful experiences in order to minimize others' pain.
She didn't. She shared at the request of a fellow Hatracker. And you crapped all over that.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Yes, bad things happen to the attractive and rich. Duh. Double duh. That doesn't make the grass on the whole lawn pale.
I think that you and Tom and Lalo and several others have completely missed the point Mrs. M was trying to make.
The way I understand her post, what she is saying first is that many people consider it to be terrific to be a teenage girl with a hot figure. She was one, and found it to be a source of harrasment. Furthermore, contrary to popular opinion, being good looking hasn't made her life the cake walk the many here are implying.
So as I see it, Mrs. M has told us some specific problems she experienced as a young woman because she had a 'hot figure'. She has also told you enough about the rest of her life for it to be clear that she hasn't had special advantages because of her looks. Yet some of you continue to insist that she has indeed has more advantages because of her looks than disadvantages and that she is simple ingrateful.
If I understood her correctly, when they repeatedly showed pictures of her 'hot rack' in high school, she was not just thinking why is that all they notice. She felt the same shame and embarassment that a fat guy might have felt if they'd repeatedly showed pictures of his butt crack. Being viewed as a slut is not a positive thing. It is, for many people, just as bad as being viewed as ugly.
And perhaps the worst part of Mrs. M's experience, is that so many people consider it acceptable to harass people for being thin, or large breasted whereas nearly everyone understands that its rude to make fun of someone for being fat.
Since Mrs. M. has been so detailed and specific, please do the same. Tell me exactly what advantages Mrs. M. has had as a result of her 'hot rack' which so thoroughly outway the humiliation and harassment she received as a young women directly because of her looks.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I am wondering, how many unattractive/heavy people try to alter their appearance to be more attractive compared to how many attractive/attractively thin people try to alter their appearance to be less attractive?
What Mrs. M and others here have said makes sense about the problems that come with attractiveness, but I weigh in in the belief that the grass is still greeneer on the other side, even if it isn't as much greener as the unattractive/heavy may fantasize. What has been shared here is good for perspective: it is greener, but it probably isn't quite as green as you thought. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Why can't we agree that both are unfortunate, and stop debating which is worse. The view from both sides is subjective and cannot be proven.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: Why can't we agree that both are unfortunate, and stop debating which is worse. The view from both sides is subjective and cannot be proven.
This debate started when Tom asked
quote:IS there a stigma against the excessively thin? I know there's some jealousy, and I know people who are assumed to be bulimic are of course the subject of tongue-wagging, but I don't otherwise see it.
I responded that I had experienced harasment for being excessively thin, after which Tom demanded details because he didn't believe it. I gave him details, and he still insists that it doesn't count. Then Mrs. M. made a similar report, and Tom responded that her experiences don't count either. It's quite frankly very insulting.
The fact of the matter is that Tom, Lalo, Frisco and some of the others on this board simply can't imagine that anyone could be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about being excessively thin or excessively buxom the way they are about being excessively fat. They simply can't believe that having children point at you in public saying 'that Lady looks like a skeleton' might just be as humiliating as having children single you out for being fat.
Well, I've never been singled out for being excessively fat so I can't know for certain, but I do know without any question that when I've been hurt by ridicule for being excessively thin I wasn't failing to be grateful for something that's overwhelming positive as Tom has claimed.
I think that every adult in America understands that its rude to ridicule fat people to their face. In the circles I live in, it is absolute taboo comment on a fat woman's weight. On the other hand, nearly everyone felt free to tell me and my husband that I'd be better looking if I gained weight. You people just don't get it.
[ July 13, 2006, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:She has also told you enough about the rest of her life for it to be clear that she hasn't had special advantages because of her looks.
No, she has not. To be honest, based on what she's written, I've actually concluded that she hasn't appreciated the special advantages conferred upon her because of her looks.
quote: The fact of the matter is that Tom, Lalo, Frisco and some of the others on this board simply can't imagine that anyone could be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about being excessively thin or excessively buxom the way they are about being excessively fat.
No. I can imagine that anyone can be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about anything. But some people have more concrete reasons than others.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:No, she has not. To be honest, based on what she's written, I've actually concluded that she hasn't appreciated the special advantages conferred upon her because of her looks.
And what exactly are these advantages that Mrs. M. has gained because of her looks. No more generalities. I want specific details. What advantages has Mrs. M enjoyed because she of her looks.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
That question is ironic on at least two levels.
----
Seriously, it's because I was curious how people perceived this "stigma." And the incidents described to me, while certainly painful, are still exactly the sort of incidents I initially acknowledged in the first place: jealousy, resentment, misunderstanding, etc.
That's not a stigma. Heck, smart people face more of a universal "stigma" than that.
The most legitimate argument for "stigma" that I've seen is that thin people don't feel that people leap to their defense as readily when they're insulted. And that's true, and I can understand why it'd feel painful. But given that this is -- in my opinion -- precisely because there's no widespread stigma against thin people, and thus little perceived need for emotional protection for thin people, it seems more like evidence in the other direction.
--------
quote:What advantages has Mrs. M enjoyed because she of her looks.
Not having known her -- ever -- I'm hardly qualified to say. Out of interest, which specific advantages have I enjoyed by being born white? I can give you specific examples of when I, as a white person living in Gary, was "stigmatized." Would those be sufficient to prove that I've never received any advantages from my skin color?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, you do that a lot. You ask a question that will prompt a personal answer, and then you dismiss the experiences entirely. I've come to wonder if, when you're asking questions, you do it just to pretend to be open to other possible viewpoints. I think that if you have already settled on an answer, it isn't conversationally fair to ask the question.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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