posted
Man arrives before the throne of the Divine, and, unbending, he says “I am thine indeed and thou art father. Is what I have wrought not pleasing to you, my Lord? Have I not sent heavenward a thousand poems, more precious than prayers; a thousand symphonies, more precious than hymns? Have not the tilled fields of earth, however often they are tilled with trenches rather than crops, created a scent more pleasing to you than incense? Have not our skyscrapers, however clouded in smog, been silver spires turning the world into a temple of your worship? From the depths of primordial pools we have risen and mastered creation through intellect, although we have often failed and resembled the animals wence we came, violent and treacherous, loyal and loving to our families but distrustful of that which is different. And yet, we prevailed in our ceaseless march to Israel, however long we spent in desert. Are you not proud of your children, Father? Is not humanity pleasing to you, my Lord?”
And the Divine answers “Yes, humanity is truly pleasing.”
This owes much to Robert Ardrey, of whom I have spoken before.
posted
Actually, that post was readable. I wouldn't say it makes a coherent point, but at least it could serve as a jumping-off point for discussion.
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posted
It seems to me that the question is rather whether the Christian god is pleasing to humanity. Assuming for a moment that the entity described in the Bible exists, does it deserve worship? You know my answer.
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ricree in all honesty I think this thread was much easier to read. I'd respond but I simply do not have time to articulate the thoughts I had, I am almost done with work for the day! Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I did not refer to he God of any religion, but to the divine.
Don't be ridiculous. Your post absolutely reeks of the Christian approach to the divine. You think the Buddha cares about the 'silver towers of our skyscrapers', or whatever?
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I did not refer to he God of any religion, but to the divine.
Don't be ridiculous. Your post absolutely reeks of the Christian approach to the divine. You think the Buddha cares about the 'silver towers of our skyscrapers', or whatever?
gah! I lied, actually yes KOM. Buddha would say that for a person skilled in building a sky scraper would be a good expression of that purpose. Certainly I have seen some pretty elaborate Buddhist monestaries that were very tall and very large in size. The priests said, "The higher our spires, the greater the heights our wisdom can attain."
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I'd be more worried about, the divine saying, "I forgot where I sent my deadly plague, have you seen it?"
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And the divine answers: "Whoa! Holy carp! Don't sneak up on me like that! Who the heck ARE you anyway? Oh, I'm sorry, were you talking to me? I was watching these beetles fornicate and totally lost track of time. Fascinating creatures, beetles. Truly among my favorites. Right after bacilli... ... Hmm...man, you say? Oh, yeah, asks a lot of questions, not very obedient, likes to name things. Noisy species overall. Not like beetles.
...
Okay, now look, I'm very busy. Why don't you go play for awhile. I'll call you when it's time to come in."
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posted
And the divine answers: "Man, yeah, you lot are alright. But wait'll you see what comes after you. I'm thinking wings and prehensile tails and a sex drive that just won't quit. Hoo doggies, that's gonna be fun!"
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"Israel? You've been marching to Israel? Oh, that's where you'd gone off to. What did you want to go there for? It's practically a desert, no natural resources to speak of, hotter than blazes (and I should know!). So, like, what, did you all just get tired and stop for a few thousand years? I mean, criminy sakes, a few hundred more miles in any direction and you could've been in the fertile crescent, back at the crossroads of the great rivers, or basking in the beautiful Mediterranean. Do you not like beaches? I mean c'mon when I said "flowing with milk and honey" didn't you kind of wonder when you crossed the Jordan and saw scrub brush and salt flats?"
"Oh, and the poems, please! Half the time there's no meter and it doesn't even pretend to rhyme. And what, did I need a bunch of poems praising pottery or visages? Seriously. Or that depressing nonsense that people write when their prescriptions run out? Well at least it's not the bloody psalms "Oh thank you God for making my enemies afraid of me! over and over and over. It's torture I tell you."
"Poems about beetles. Now that'd be nice once in awhile."
"And I could go an eternity without seeing another sky-scraper, thank you very much. They haven't had anything resembling style since Babel, and you know what happened to them, I assume. Look, I don't mind you all digging up metal and making things, idle hands and all, but don't expect me to run down here and take snapshots and stick 'em on the mantlepiece everytime you pile two bricks atop one another. It's like the entire group of you is on some bipolar merry-go-round. Half the time, you lack the self-esteem to stand up for what's right, and the other half of the time you're so full of yourselves you actually think I'm cheering for you as you break each other's heads."
"If it weren't for the fact that I really enjoy a good laugh, I'd've started the whole thing over by now."
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posted
The new theology seems much like the old Christian theology cosmetically revamped for someone living in a liberal (international usage of liberal, not the US usage as a synonym for progressive) democracy. I'd note the appeal to egalitarianism ('Man arrives before the throne of the Divine, and,unbending,...'), a belief in rational self-improvement/criticism (the various references to the imperfections in mankind's crafts, and a modernist type belief in the value of grand projects and narratives (all the projects seem to reflect a degree of grandeur). [academic aside] Have you read any Arendt Pel, especially The Human Condition? I'd posit that this theology seems specifically tailored for Home faber as opposed to most religions that would seem to appeal to Animal laborans. If you're familiar I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that observation [/academic aside]
Tell me what you think.
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Rolling, rolling, rolling It gets nice and swollen, Keep this doo-doo rolling, Crapball! Don't try to understand it It's really just a ball of **** Roll it on, move it out Move it out, roll it on Roll it on, move it out CRAPBAAAAALL!
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Scott, that is amazing. If I were a deity, I'd definitely be proud of humanity because of that poem.
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I'm trying to decide which is funnier--Scott's poem or Bob's response. Until we figure it out we won't know who won the thread!
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"You think the Buddha cares about the 'silver towers of our skyscrapers', or whatever?" I thin Buddha, who is not viewed as a God in most traditions, would indeed be surportive of Le Corbusier's City of Towers for its urban planing, although I have my doubts as to his suport for its architecture. And I second BlackBlade about Buddhist Temples.
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I think that for Christians. God has pretty much told us what's going to be on the exam. Scott mentioned it the other day:
quote: Matthew 25
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee asick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
posted
Pel, while perhaps interesting poetry, prose whatever it is meant to be, this doesn't bring up a topic for discussion, it doesn't ask any questions for us to answer. what kind of responses are you expecting from this kind of thing?
while still fairly arcane it is at least somewhat readable, but my only possible response is: what kind of response am I supposed to give this?
it's like if I had started a thread and just put: "The sun doth shine and the moon doth glow." sure it's a fun line from an amusing song but it doesn't lead to a discussion...
so please, what are you trying to get at here?
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posted
Well, considering that my argument is, KoM's objections aside, incredibly deviant from orthodox Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought, it should create quite a lively debate for such a religiously mixed forum.
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posted
I'm not sure I agree that the image you presented really deviates from Christianity all that much. I suppose it does in that "Man" is not cowering before God or being very respectful.
So basically, Man goes before God and says, "Look at all of the fantastic things we have done! Regardless of the horrible things we have also done, aren't we great?" And God says, "Yes, you are great."
I think that in this "New Theology" Man is rather condescending to God, a route I would think is best avoided. If God does not follow up his agreement with a quick lightning bolt to Man's head, he's no kind of God at all.
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I think that the servant-master view is highly overemphasized, if it is valid at all, and the parent-child view highly underemphasized.
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In a parent-child view, the child here is being impertinent. If it were mine I would tell it, "Yes, that is a great block tower, but you shouldn't brag and show off. You need to learn humility. Now go do your chores."
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quote:I think that the servant-master view is highly overemphasized, if it is valid at all, and the parent-child view highly underemphasized.
Why would you say that the servant-master view is not valid? Certainly in Christian theology, it is supported by scripture. (See kmboots quote above for an example)
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I am not a big fan, to put it mildly, of arguments centered on the primacy of any one scripture.
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quote:Originally posted by narrativium: Actually, that post was readable. I wouldn't say it makes a coherent point, but at least it could serve as a jumping-off point for discussion.
Readable? "I thine indeed" is readable?
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I agree (with Pel's post), in that the Its-In-The-Bible argument has doubtfully changed anybody's mind. IMO, theological discussions (specifically those that are not concentrating solely on Christianity) should be based on ideas that can be backed up with solid reasoned arguments, not passages from arcane and potentially misrepresented/misinterpreted books.
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Pel, I'm skeptical of the argument that thought is the equivalent of prayer, and achievement the equivalent of worship. Because there's no room required in those definitions for humility or submission, both of which are generally expected in these scenarios.
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quote:I think that the servant-master view is highly overemphasized, if it is valid at all, and the parent-child view highly underemphasized.
I prefer the parent-child view, myself; but a good parent doesn't ignore all the horrible stuff their child has done and only praise his acocmplishments. A good parent is loving and merciful, yes, but also expects obedience and respect from the child. A good parent tries to teach the child the right way to live - not because the parent is on a power trip, but because the parent wants the child to be happy and knows that certain behaviors are going to lead to misery.
More like this:
"Mom, I know I broke all your plates, but look at the mosaic I made with them! Isn't it pretty? Aren't you proud of me?"
"Yes, it's beautiful; but you still broke all my plates. You have not learned respect for other people's things. We need to decide together how you are going to replace them. Once you have done that, we could give you the opportunity to create art without destrying things."
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Lisa, isn't Shakespeare taught in Israeli schools? I should think it was, although the "I am thine indeed and thou art father" was a reference to Pope's translation of the Odyssey, the two writers used much the same language, Pope's being more modern.
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Pel, isn't covering your tracks taught in Texas prep schools? You added the "am" in "I am thine..." then 4 minutes later snottily quoted the corrected version. I wondered about that "I thine indeed" as well.
Don't try to be sneaky.
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: Kate! you semi-pelagian, you! how dare you bring up works in the economy of salvation!
In that particular instance, I wasn't talking about what gets us saved; I was talking about what makes God pleased with us. But your accusation is still apt. Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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