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What does the Hatrack Community think of this manifesto, which I believe to be one the most reasonable political works of our times, although certainly lacking any claims to great eloquence?
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It is lots of contradictory and semi-contradictory idealism, a mishmash of all the popular good and bad ideas of modern liberalism, and absolutely uninteresting.
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Oh, and the grammar gets worse and worse as it goes on, I think it was written in an all-nighter.
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Bao, membership is granted atomaticly to members of various organizations and cannot be gained any other way. The only American groups folded or are very small and regional, the list of members can be found here http://www.iflry.org/index.php?module=PNAddressBook&func=main
fugu, glad to have your highly constructive an in-depth view Perhaps you might wish to expand upon it?
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fugu, Most members do not speak English as their first language, but I agree the grammar could be better.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Bao, membership is granted atomaticly to members of various organizations and cannot be gained any other way. The only American groups folded or are very small and regional, the list of members can be found here
You can start a chapter of [Young Democrats of America] if there is not one in your state, no? They are at "observer" status.
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Edited to add: I think Youth for Democratic Action is a subdivison of Americans for Democratic Action, and I bet you could start a local chapter of that if there was not one available, as well. But that may be dependent on whether there is an ADA chapter there first. (i don't know.)
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Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
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You might find it more likely to get into a US university. Note the large number of Europeans and Asians who come to the United States for university; there are fewer universities abroad, and, consequently, it is harder to gain admittance to them.
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Yes, although the majority of Europeans and Asians who come here would just as easily be able to go to school in their own countries. Those who cannot go to school in their own countries usualy do not go here either. Hence the fact that the more prestigious American schools have more students from abroad. However, I have great confidence in my ability to get into at least one the five British or one Irish school I plan to apply to, although I am still applying to five American schools.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Yes, although the majority of Europeans and Asians who come here would just as easily be able to go to school in their own countries. Those who cannot go to school in their own countries usualy do not go here either.
I have direct knowledge that this is not correct.
quote: Hence the fact that the more prestigious American schools have more students from abroad.
Huh??
quote: However, I have great confidence in my ability to get into at least one the five British or one Irish school I plan to apply to, although I am still applying to five American schools.
quote: 2.d. Education Education is a fundamental individual right.
Fine. What exactly does that mean?
The manifesto is chock full of this kind of thing.
I mean, education as a function of observing something and learning from it is a human ABILITY. That kind of thing doesn't even require a teacher. Not all kinds of education are rights related. You can't take away my ability to breath (not without killing me)- so is breathing a right worth defending? It seems that life only, is the root of these things.
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Icky is right, that first statement isn't true at all. A lot of places in the US have lower standards than most of the European schools, so a lot of students from overseas come over here and attend second tier schools, where at home they would not have been able to attend school at all.
That doesn't mean that all American schools are bad...far from it. We have some of the best schools in the world. But we also have a lot of middle tier schools which allow a lot more students abroad and US residents alike, to attend college.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
I would like, for the sake of my own information and the edification of everybody here, to know why you want to go to Oxford (you've mentioned that as your top choice) and why you think you will be accepted there.
Don't take this as *too much* of a challenge, but I would rather stop taking it on your authority that this is your reasonable plan. I mean, let's hear about your grades, activities, organizations, special interests. Lets get a little background other than our direct experience with you, please.
Edit: this sounds a little nasty, but really I just want to know- I don't intend to debate you.
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The market fundamentalism of Part 3 is a little dodgy - especially given all the exceptions for government intervention listed in the sections following. Wouldn't it just be easier to state an overriding goal (eg providing a basic standard of decent living for all/most or expanding the PPF of society) and then posit markets as an important (not exclusive) method of achieving this?
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Just hope you can afford to pay for a European university. They're expensive for foreigners.
Re: the document.
Taking my critiques in reverse order . . .
I could live with a modicum of bad grammar, my complaint was not directed at the grammar but at something indicated by the progression of the grammar: that the document was hastily written.
The contents were pretty much entirely predictable from the words 'young', 'liberal', 'radical', and possibly 'international'. Because of that, the document is absolutely uninteresting (as a policy statement; as a somewhat amusing perspective on the thought processes of a certain category of youth, it has its uses).
The document is so predictable because all it does is amalgamate a broad assortment of fashionable (continental, mainly) left-liberal positions. There isn't even any serious effort to integrate them, they mostly just get listed. On a side note, its amusing to see what gets 'demanded' and what doesn't.
Regarding contradiction, here's an amusing little segment:
quote:Liberal and Radical youth believe the correct forum to be the United Nations. The stability of the world is too great a burden to place with any o ne nation or group of nations.
Not only is the United Nations literally a group of nations, but the sole real international power in the United Nations is vested in a very small group of nations. Granted they call for its reform, but it even so remains a group of nations. Also notably, they call for other international area groupings to take more active roles, in seeming contradiction.
Then there are assertions like these, that they seem to think are all dramatic, when in fact they merely assert the status quo:
quote:International intervention in a sovereign nation may o nly take place where there has been gross violation of human and basic rights.
Yet which seem to not have heard of assertions like these, that call for that very role to be redefined:
quote:Also transnational companies, the mobility of manpower and capital, biotechnology, modern information technology and mass media are penetrating the state frontiers.
These developments and changes call for a new thinking in the concepts of international policy and cooperation. The principles guiding the international system, for example the rule of non-interference, must be evaluated and redefined.
The non sequiturs sprinkled around without any further development make me particularly amused. Here's a doozy:
quote:Also, in order to bring about ecological sustainability, the tax system should be changed.
For one thing . . . the tax system? There is no single tax system, nor anything close. Around the world one has examples of just about every tax system feasible.
They have a moderately reasonable description of a possible market setup (depending on how you take the statements) in the market section, but outside the market section they have doozies like this:
quote:There should be public funded education at all levels. Whilst in full-time education those studying should be provided with sufficient income regardless of the parents income. This income should be available at all levels of education, including schools, universities and apprenticeship.
I don't think the person writing that section was paying attention to the person emphasizing
quote:The degree of government involvement in the economic process should be restricted to just the necessary tasks. But the government must play a significant role in the economy and especially in the transition towards a sustainable economy. It has to define its limits within which the market sector can operate. By setting the stage is not meant direct government control but a system of rules and incentives that doesn't frustrate private initiative, but limits the range of undesirable market results. Such rules are competition rules, consumer protection and environmental protection.
In particular, the government should o nly carry out tasks that the private sector, for different reasons, can not take care of in the present situation. These reasons can be legal, social or related to efficiency. In addition, public sector spending should not be too high and tax levels should not frustrate the working of the market mechanism. Government regulation should be reevaluated, through the democratic process, o n a permanent basis.
sndrake (here on hatrack) would have a positive field day over this statement, particularly the last sentence as it relates to the rest:
quote:We recognise the special and greater economic, health and social needs of, amongst others, disabled, elderly, mentally retarded, physically and mentally ill persons, and demand that these be met. Also these groups must have access to all parts of society. The care of these groups must be guaranteed by society and with respect for the individual and his/her preferences. Voluntary euthanasia should not be criminalised.
There's this tidbit, "It is more humane to create meaningful chances for all individuals and groups to contribute to society than to offer subsidies," which is in seeming contradiction to both the education funding quotation and "The government must provide an income guarantee that covers the basic needs of the involuntarily unemployed "
I do wonder how they propose one use military force to disarm a nuclear power violently opposed to being disarmed without triggering a nuclear attack. Hopefully they have some suggestions, as they say its a particular priority:
quote:In particular, the proliferation of nuclear and chemical weaponry must be curbed by the UN if necessary through military action.
There's more, but those are a few of the things I note. I do agree with a lot of things in there, but its more a property of including a huge number of things (many contradictory) than any particular quality of the document. And as noted, most of this is highly predictable, underscoring the low importance and relevance, however reasonable something so problematic and contradictory may or may not be.
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Icarus, I could find the figures if I so choose, but do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at Columbia than at Jefferson State Community College?
"Just hope you can afford to pay for a European university. They're expensive for foreigners. "They are more expensive for foreigners than for Europeans, but much less expensive for foreigners than a private university in the U.S. (Oxford costs roughly the same as the University of Texas.
"Don't take this as *too much* of a challenge, but I would rather stop taking it on your authority that this is your reasonable plan. I mean, let's hear about your grades, activities, organizations, special interests. Lets get a little background other than our direct experience with you, please."
Oxford is interested my grades in history, in which I have a 99 average over two years and was top of my class this year and my AP scores in history (I have only taken European History so far, but I got a Five then and I am taking American History, Human Geography and Comparitive Politics next year and Art History the year after.) Oxford does not care about my activities, but these include Latin Club (I am going the the National Junior Classical Leauge covention in Iowa soon), Literary Magazine and school dramas (I act in the fall plays and do tech for the spring musicals, right now I am directing and staring in a student-run production of "The Compleat Wrks of Wllm Shkspr (Abridged.)"
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Pel have you looked into canada at all? Just wondering, it's a little closer, and there are alot of very well respected international universities here (McGill, UofT, etc)
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" the document was hastily written." It was actualy written in stages over quite a long period of time,
quote: This IFLRY Manifesto adopted at the IFLRY Extraordinary General Assembly in Eastbourne (1992) and amended at the IFLRY Extraordinary General Assembly in Bled (1994), at the 17th General Assembly in Luxembourg (1995) at the Extraordinary General Assembly in Jerusalem (1996), at the General Assembly in Borovetz (1997) and at the General Assembly in Montreal (1998) replaces the IFLRY Manifesto adopted in Lugano in 1981.
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It's a pretty terrible assumption to make. People with 99 averages and 5s in all their APs are a dime-a-dozen at top schools. I couldn't swing a cat at Waterloo without knocking a few down.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Icarus, I could find the figures if I so choose, but do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at Columbia than at Jefferson State Community College?
This in no way addressed my point, but just for the heck of it: there are perhaps a dozen schools of the caliber of Columbia in the US. Let's say there are two dozen. There are around a thousand Jefferson State Community Colleges. Do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at all of the Jefferson State Community Colleges combined than there are at all of the Columbias combined?
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"Extra-curricular activities will not form part of the selection process." Last line of the Oxford University Qualifications: USA applicants page. The word not was bolded.
However, I would go insane if I spent all my time studying, hence the extra-curricular activities.
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Bob, yes, but not in all majors. There are many more students applying for Politics, Philosophy and Economics or for English and Modern Languages than for Ancient History and Classical Archaelogy.
However, note that I plan to apply to twelve or more colleges universities in three or four different countries (the U.S., Ireland, the U.K. and perhaps Canada), two of which have already expressed interest in me, and so am not counting on any one college or university.
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I suspect they were written by committee, which might explain the lack of eloquence (there is no pretending this is the Declaration of Independence or the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.)
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I am not offended by a lack of elegance, or a mild lack of grammar (though such errors should have been corrected before adoption, and betray procedural issues), but at a lack of thought.
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Whatever its faults may be, I do not believe a lack of though is one of them. Heavily qualified statements, however much we disagree with them, are usualy the product of much, perhaps too much thought.
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I finally had a chance to read it all the way through. I found it to be somewhat incoherent and contridictory. Fugu pointed out a few of the contridictions, but there are more. What bothered me the most is that they stated certain positions or policies as if they were inherently desirable and obvious, when often I felt like they were neither.
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I don't think lack of thought, fugu, so much as a lack of cohesion and desperate need for a good editor (not just for grammar, but to ensure a consistency of idea, to force writers to justify throw away comments, and to force writers to reconcile apparent contradictions).
Though, perhaps radical liberal youths rebel against editing and resist attempts to reconcile flaws in their style or ideas.
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I can think of no manifesto that has ever justified its statements in any serious way. As a literary/political form they are simple statements of belief, like a Creed in the Catholic tradition.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: They are more expensive for foreigners than for Europeans, but much less expensive for foreigners than a private university in the U.S. (Oxford costs roughly the same as the University of Texas.
The University of Texas is not private and (unless things have changed drastically) incredibly cheap. Plus, they offered me a number of scholarships, sight unseen, merely based on my PSAT scores. If you had sent yours there, and you are as academically accomplished as you say (I would presume you were a National Merit Semifinalist?) you should have had a number of scholarship offers out of the gate.
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I don't meany lack of any thought, I mean lack of necessary thought, particularly on consistency, logic, and support.
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Yeah, University of Texas offered to give me a free ride, despite my never having applied there.
Pel: even statements of belief require a certain minimal justification/context. See the quotation about "the tax system" that appears out of nowhere and is so undeveloped as to be inscrutable.
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"I would presume you were a National Merit Semifinalist?" Not yet, anyway (I am only going into my Junior year.)
The point I wished to make is that European Universities, which are almost always at least partialy publicly funded, cost about the same as American public universities for an American to attend, and much less for a European. Indeed, I believe French schools are free and open to all students with a Bac. (anyone can enter, but many, perhaps most, fail out.)
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Just saying don't judge what's in your back yard too harshly... there is a lot of scholarship money to be had here in the US, state schools like UT tend to be very inexpensive (UT Dallas ran me about $500 a semester in '97) and, while it's not Oxford, UT Austin, for example, has a very well-respected Physics program.
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Here's what Oxford's site has to say about tuition:
quote:Classics / Literae Humaniores; Philosophy and Theology; B.Th. in Theology (£8,880) Most other programmes in social sciences, humanities and human sciences (£10,360) Science subjects, including joint degrees, involving a laboratory-based element; Computer Science; Music; Fine Art (£11,840) Clinical Medicine (£21,700)
So, a Classics degree would cost roughly $16,500 USD and a humanities degree would cost roughly $20,000 USD. That's not too bad when compared to private universities in the US, though the conversion rates make the cost of living roughly twice as much in the UK, too.
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The letters in the title of the thread made me think of Firefly. Did it do that to anyone else?
On topic, the thing that you linked to seems like it could be up for discussion. I mean, they're representing all of the "young people" in the world. I certainly didn't give them my permission to represent me.
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"I thought you said you were seventeen?" Actualy, not for a week. Seventeen seemed more real than 16.96
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in terms of comparison of school costs consider just the difference between in and out of state tuition for various state schools:
i.e. Purdue in state is approximately 6000/yr (I think) while out of state is approximately 20000... for a public university. so going to UT vs oxford would be a huge jump, but going UofI (from Texas) vs oxford is prolly comparable.
on the topic of the manifesto: I largely must agree with TomDavidson... a manifesto by its very nature is going to tend towards the exremely idealistic side of things (which in my mind makes it fairly useless). And the list that has been growing here on the various contradictions and non-sequiturs seems to be damaging enough in my mind to not give it too much thought.
I suppose "poorly compiled" might be the best description for most of its flaws. The manifesto doesn't strike me as bad so much as not terribly useful.
It reminded me of people saying "I wish there were world peace" and me saying "so does just about everyone else, what's your point?"
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quote:Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
Have you considered Canada? It's cheaper university-wise, we speak the same language, have all the things you are used to (plus Mars Bars and Smarties) and are more liberal.
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