And that's assuming you actually only need 120 credits to graduate. If one takes "too many" electives, or double-majors, or does a few other things, it can easily take 140-150 credits to get your degree.
Believe it or not, with my double major, Ap units, musical performance units (which are non-impactive on the unit cap at the UC), and abroad units, I will top out somewhere close to 240 units when I graduate. This is not ussually allowed at a UC, but some of my units don't count towards the cap, so I am doing a third again as much as some people who graduate with 180. And, in fact, much more since music classes are vastly underweighted hour/unit wise.
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quote:15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
Which is, by the way, one of the really vexing things about being in a quarter system rather than semester. 15 unit-hours (which often translates to MORE class hours than that), is the courseload recommended by the UC for full time students. What ends up happening, is that we in the quarter system either cover all the same material a semester class would, but in 10 weeks. OR, we cover less, but have more diverse class listings. Rare is the class which actually has some continuation from quarter to quarter. Arts and music are the only ones that really do this, with some effort at continuation with the same teacher, schedule, and students from quarter to quarter.
This kind of relationship with professors and other students is more difficult, because we get to know each other less easily, and see eachother less regularly. The main reason I stuck out the music major after the first few quarters was the continuation it offered, and the friends I was making in the major-- my English major has made me very few friendships at all, and let me get to know very few profs.
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And that's assuming you actually only need 120 credits to graduate. If one takes "too many" electives, or double-majors, or does a few other things, it can easily take 140-150 credits to get your degree.
Believe it or not, with my double major, Ap units, musical performance units (which are non-impactive on the unit cap at the UC), and abroad units, I will top out somewhere close to 240 units when I graduate. This is not ussually allowed at a UC, but some of my units don't count towards the cap, so I am doing a third again as much as some people who graduate with 180. And, in fact, much more since music classes are vastly underweighted hour/unit wise.
But again, you're talking about quarter units, not semester credits. 240 quarter units is equivalent to 160 semester credits (more or less). And it's not that unusual for someone with a double major.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
Which is, by the way, one of the really vexing things about being in a quarter system rather than semester. 15 unit-hours (which often translates to MORE class hours than that), is the courseload recommended by the UC for full time students. What ends up happening, is that we in the quarter system either cover all the same material a semester class would, but in 10 weeks.
Simply untrue in my experience. A year's worth (three quarter classes) of calculus at UCLA was very close to a year's worth (two semesters) at other schools; similarly for chemistry. I looked into it quite carefully.
What I liked about the quarter system was that it was so quick. So if I hated a prof, or a class, I knew I would be done with it soon. Also, when I took a quarter off (which I did three times while I was an undergrad, mostly because of having kids), it didn't mean missing a whole half-year.
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First: Question - just who are you staring at in these works of Shakespeare? Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Second: Be very careful not to presume too much about colleges, even those that state in their literature that they do NOT consider extra-curricular activities when looking at applications. If there are 300 people trying to get into the same major field of study as you are, all of whom have similar grades, the next thing that the admissions people are going to look at, is extra -curricular activities. The reason for this is they want to see how you handled your school and study demands with those of other groups, or activities you may have been involved in... Did you do it for only a year, did you stick with it for more than 3 years, could you handle more than one thing and maintain excellent scores in all your classes? They choose the people who appear to be able to handle their studies, activities, and the stress involved with it all over those who have fewer, or no activities listed. ( I worked in the offices of a college - the financial aid and admissions...basically the administration offices, so I do know about these things.)
Third: You have also not taken into account that more International students attend State Universities here in the US than Community Colleges. Your comment about that didn't make much sense to me since most community colleges ("Jefferson State Community College") have very small International programs, if any, wheras, many Universities, such as UMASS, Amherst (again experience talking here) have very large International Programs with whole communities and dorms allotted for those students. Since I majored in Spanish and Minored in Japanese, I spent most of my time with the international students, and I can assure you that for many of them, the reason that they came to the US for school is that although they were the top students in their cities and had the best records, the tests they had to take to get accepted to the Universities in their countries were so difficult that only those who scored in about the top 3 percent on the tests were accepted. Especially true in China where some of the students I spoke to said they were up against thousands of others, scored in the 4th percentile, and were not accepted. These are some of the world's greatest minds, and they were not considered smart enough to go to the Universities in their own countries! (One of my friends has a doctorate, and 4 masters degrees from schools here in the US, by the way! If that is not an overachiever, I don't know what is!)
My last point is this: Never assume that because you are confident in your abilities, you will succeed at your goals...it takes continued hard work, patience, and more hard work, not only belief in one's self (I had a friend in much the same state of mind that you show here who had perfect grades, all sorts of activities, and was not accepted to any of her top 5 choices for schools. She drove to the beach, swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills, and walked out into the ocean because of it. She was 17. Her name was Felissa, and I still think it was such a waste because she had so much life and so much of it left ahead of her. She could have done anything, but she never even imagined the possibility that she would be turned down. Please do not make the same mistake. Besides you should never assume anything : "it makes an a s s out of u and me - a s s u m e! Just a little friendly advice. Posts: 325 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Keep in mind that those AP tests weight the different types of questions differently, so a simple correct percent seems a little out of whack.
fugu is completely correct....they are suppose to represent A, B and C grades. I got a couple of 3's myself, including one in a class I didn't take.
It was a year long class....half fulfilled the government requirement for graduations; the second half was the AP course in comparative government. The teacher like me, and I needed a third English class my senior year (I had lost credit in an Advanced Composition class in my junior year because of tardies; I had an A- too. ) , so he talked to the administration and convinced them to let me take the test anyway. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
On second thought, I guess that depends on what you mean by standard. If you mean "recommended load so you can graduate in four years," absolutely. If you mean, "the load of the average full-time student," then no. A goodly number of full-time students are taking the 12-credit minimum (to qualify for scholarships, grants, loans, etc.) and no more. Usually due to job and/or family obligations.
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posted
That's why I mentioned that 12 hours counts as full time.
A lot of people take leaves of absences from school, and a lot work so can only handle 12 semester hours.
But the most common reason for that fifth year isn't either. It is because people usually switch their majors at least once, and a lot of time that means they need additional classes due to graduation requirements. Also, at some schools classes that are required for specific majors are tough to get into, so even seniors sometimes can't get into them.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: What I liked about the quarter system was that it was so quick. So if I hated a prof, or a class, I knew I would be done with it soon. Also, when I took a quarter off (which I did three times while I was an undergrad, mostly because of having kids), it didn't mean missing a whole half-year.
Obviously if your talking about Calc, and the cources run A-C, then you are basically following a two semester courseload in three quarters, since its likely that the same classes have been taught over two quarters. What I am saying is, and certainly not for ALL classes, that quite a few one-off classes, (depends on your major, English is mostly one-offs), include as much material as a semester class at another school.
You do get that back with more flexibility and more diversity in your class selection, but you simply can't avoid the fact that in some areas the quarter system is going to fracture your relationship with other students, or profs, or your ability to take time to absorb alot of information. You simply can't cover the same amount of 18th century brit lit in 10 weeks, as in a semester. You can cover more, and different material, maybe more material in the quarter system, but the experience is altered by the schedule. Maybe you meet more people, but spend less time getting to know them, or have more profs, but less time with them.
The problem I did point out it really a common one in the quarter system: many profs really DO try to fit too much material into the alotted time, because that course will be serving as a survey for the topic. Again, it doesn't happen with every class, but one-off classes are notorious for this, and English classes even more so. I can't speak for other disciplines, but English here at the UC has given me that impression.
Simply untrue? Its not that simple.
Edit- your example of the calc class that spans three quarters was almost exactly the same as the one I gave about music classes and how the quarter system OVERCOMES this negative aspect. The problem is that these kind of continuations from quarter to quarter are not common to all majors, and are unheard of in English.
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I all but minored in English. I took lots of upper-division English courses, and narrowly avoided the 10 series (just took 10A). And I still disagree with your assessment. *shrug*
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quote:If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
Taking 15 credits per semester does not necessarily mean you graduate in 4 years. Most people I knew in college took 15 or more credits per semester, though many of these still did not graduate in four years.
There are all kinds of reasons this is possible. A change of major (very common), or adding a double major (or minor) will often force a need for more than 120 credits. Some credits may not have counted toward core requirements or a major, and were taken out of interest, such as performance credits that do not factor into graduation credits. Classes may be failed or withdrawn from before the end of a term.
I don't have numbers in front of me, but I think 15 credits per semester could very easily be the average - even taking into account that the average student doesn't graduate in four years.
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posted
Five years seems a very long time in any university undergraduate program. My top choices are all three-year schools (for my major, some like medicine or engineering are four year.) Even in many American universities, isn't it possible to graduate in three?
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Possible, sure. Advisable, not very. Keep in mind that most undergraduate degrees in the US are liberal arts degrees requiring a diversity of classes in many different subject areas, while most undergraduate degrees in Europe (for instance) involve significantly less study outside the major subject area.
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posted
Possible, but in a science major (one which requires a lot of time intensive labs) it's damn hard. It would take overloading yourself every semester, and probably some summers.
I knew a Saudi in school who was somehow managing to take 29 hours a semester, and was gonna graduate in two and a half years with a petroleum engineering degree. Of course, that took both a perfect storm of class lineups and about 70+ hours a week on his part.
But with his wife and child living in another country, I understood how he could do it.
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quote:If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
Taking 15 credits per semester does not necessarily mean you graduate in 4 years. Most people I knew in college took 15 or more credits per semester, though many of these still did not graduate in four years.
There are all kinds of reasons this is possible. A change of major (very common), or adding a double major (or minor) will often force a need for more than 120 credits. Some credits may not have counted toward core requirements or a major, and were taken out of interest, such as performance credits that do not factor into graduation credits. Classes may be failed or withdrawn from before the end of a term.
I don't have numbers in front of me, but I think 15 credits per semester could very easily be the average - even taking into account that the average student doesn't graduate in four years.
All you said is true. But I don't believe that the average student is taking 15 credits -- 12 is much closer. This is just one college's stats, but I've seen some very similar overall stats. I just can't remember where to look for 'em online.
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quote:the “average number of credit hours attempted per semester” explains the largest proportion of variance (38.1 percent) in the students’ enrollment behavior.
posted
Also consider that a lot of times average hours/semester vary according to what year you are and what major you're in:
For example my schedule was something like: 18 17 16 16 15 15 13 12
Freshman year was lots of basic stuff that wasn't that work-intesnive (not to say that it was easy) whereas the further I progressed into engineering the more time/effort-intensive my classes became. By senior year you looked at people taking 15 credits like they were an overachiever and those taking 18 didn't sleep more than 4 hours a night...
for example: 3 credit hour senior design was closer to a 9 credit freshman class in terms of work/time. a 1 credit lab was closer to a 3 credit freshman class...
of course some of that is specific to engineering, the various gen-eds didn't increase in time/effort nearly as steeply.
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That was a really interesting site, rivka. It seems after reading it that it's very hard to find an average student experience because of so many factors that affect credits gained and time taken.
Still, statistically, there were a few things that could be seen.
Among full time students, the average number of credit hours attempted (among students surveyed) was 14.4 per semester. However, the average number of credit hours *earned* was 13.1 per semester (accounting for dropped and failed classes).
Among all students, the average number of credit hours attempted was 14 per semester, while the average number earned was 12.7. This includes part time students, at least as far as I understood the data.
So, it looks like the goal for most students is to try for 14 per semester, though the realities of the college environment reduce that number closer to 13.
Still, the average number of credits accumulated during a bachelor's degree is 141.8 for full time students, with an attempted 155.5. That's at least a full semester's worth of courses taken beyond the standard 120 requirement, with a full year's worth attempted over that requirement.
posted
Engineering is definitely known to have a very steep time-to-credit curve as you move up the years. There's also much less flexibility is terms of class order (that is, which courses you take which semester/quarter).
I was just comparing notes the other day with someone who attended UCLA's School of Engineering at roughly the same time I was getting my degree in chemistry from the College of letters and Sciences. She was not familiar with the concept of electives within one's major. To her, there were breadth (called core requirements at some schools) requirements, major requirements, and electives. I had regular electives, and also major electives (you know, choose three of the following ten classes).
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posted
One of the classes I most enjoyed when I was at UCLA was an education class about college students. We looked at stats on all kinds of things that affected who applies, who attends, who completes their degree, etc.
Now that I'm working in college administration, I wish I'd kept all those articles and studies we had to read! Fortunately, some stuff I get now through other routes, or can find online.
But yeah, really interesting stuff.
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"just who are you staring at in these works of Shakespeare? Sorry, couldn't help myself." I, as one of three actors, play Romeo, the Prince, the Friar and the Nurse in Romeo and Juliet; one of the rappers in Othello; the witch (we only have one) in MacBeth; Cæsar in Julius Cæsar; a football player and a sports announcer in the collected tragedies; and various roles in Hamlet. My primary role is that of a narrator.
As you may have guessed, this is not a typical Shakespearean production, nor perhaps even a Shakespearean production at all. It is, however, extremely funny.
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Yeah, it is, although we had to go through a fairly vigorous self-censorship process and we are just hoping to avoid too much outside censorship (our school has no official policy on such issues and has performed plays with material some, i.e. the non-denomonational preachers who send their kids here, might find offensive. Les Mis was performed uncut, despited sexual refrences and mild profanity, but most other plays have had significant amounts removed.)
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I've seen the show a few times and can't really remember which parts are that offensive. Unless you mean "The Kiss".
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I all but minored in English. I took lots of upper-division English courses, and narrowly avoided the 10 series (just took 10A). And I still disagree with your assessment. *shrug*
"all but minored"
so you took 2 or 3 classes? What do you know about it? We didn't go to same school after all, so your experience is bound to vary.
Edit: My assessment being that the classes are not contiguous quarter to quarter, or that professors tend to cram too much into a quarter? I made a number of assesments. If you are disagreeing with my assertion that classes do not connect from quarter to quarter, then at my university you would be flat wrong. There is not a single English class which continues from another class, in which it is required to do them both, and in sequence. Even if a class is required as a pre-req, that is highly negotiable at the UC, and it certainly doesn't matter when and where you get the pre-reqs done. There is no organized continuation or structure in that way.
This is in stark contrast to the music program, which requires a continuous two years and about 20 classes which are shared with all the same students and a small group of teachers.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: "all but minored"
so you took 2 or 3 classes? What do you know about it? We didn't go to same school after all, so your experience is bound to vary.
Actually, I took all the courses required for English minors except for 10B and 10C (I really, really hated 10A). And the syllabi at the various UC schools tends to overlap quite a bit.
But feel free to continue disregarding my opinion.
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posted
I just was a bit perplexed by the "all but minored" qualification. The English minor is not very many classes, and I would think that if you had taken "a bunch" of English classes, you would agree with me anyway, and you'd have your minor for that matter.
Since I am near completion of an English major, I probably have more of a feel for how the courses map out. I also didn't have to take 10A and 10B, (that's shakespeare right?) Because I did a summer abroad session on Shakespeare. And anyway, only one of those is required for a major. There may actually be more continuity for minors because of the fewer number of possible classes. I will have to look at the reqs when I get a chance.
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Reading up on reqs at UCD, I see that the English minor requirements are 5 upper div classes and one lower div class, Eng. 1 or 3 (or AP credit).
4 must be lit courses. That is all here. No continuation, no other requirements.
As for the music minor, We music majors laugh about that one, because we never see the music minors. None of the minor classes are even applicable to a major- kind of unbelievable really.
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posted
Looks like the current English minor at UCLA is not that different than UCD's. (As I'd expect.) I could just be misremembering, but I certainly recall there being both more requirements, and more specific requirements back when I was a student. (Of course, the minor was introduced when I was a junior, and that was over 10 years ago. It's quite possible they changed it since then.)
It did include 142A. I loved that course!
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posted
"English 10A, 10B and 10C must be taken with a grade of C or better."
This does denote a progression which is not present in the UCD curriculum, which is ANY 5 upper div courses, 4 of which are in literature. 20 units in all if you have your APs in order.
I don't have access to the course descriptions, but I can tell you that there is no 10A 10B or 10C in the English major at all at UCD, I just checked. The equivelant courses might be the fourties (that's intro to poetry, lit, criticism, and fiction), or the new thirties. The core units have been recently diversified between the 30s and 40s at UCD so that no-one ends up taking all the same ones. Rather a shame.
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posted
UC Davis course descriptions are here (Programs and Courses).
Going off what I see, it looks like 30A&B are roughly equivalent to 10B&C; I don't see an equivalent to 10A. (You can see the UCLA catalog here if you're curious.)
Actually, what is fascinating to me is that a brief skim of English course offerings from the two schools shows significantly more sequence-courses at UCLA than at UCD. (UCLA: The M101 series, the M102 series, the M104 series, the M105 series, 107, 108, 111C-F, 115, 140, 141, 142, etc., etc. series.; UCD: the 46 series, the 110 series, 113, 117, 150, 155, 158, 161 . . . and not much more.) Not only does UCLA have more sequences, they aren't just survey courses, but thematic groups.
posted
I meant UCLA course descripts, I know all the UCD ones! Plus I was just on Registrar.ucd that's where I got the minor info.
edit: of you provided the link. How nice!
quote:Actually, what is fascinating to me is that a brief skim of English course offerings from the two schools shows significantly more sequence-courses at UCLA than at UCD. (UCLA: The M101 series, the M102 series, the M104 series, the M105 series, 107, 108, 111C-F, 115, 140, 141, 142, etc., etc. series.; UCD: the 46 series, the 110 series, 113, 117, 150, 155, 158, 161 . . . and not much more.) Not only does UCLA have more sequences, they aren't just survey courses, but thematic groups.
If you look at the reqs on those, for instance the 150s, or the 40s, you'll see that you can only take 1 class from the upper div groups, so they are not "series" courses, they are only a pool of courses and you choose one. You choose 2 from the 40s and 2 from the 30s, and one from each group of upper divs, plus three elective from any group, or from a group of elective only courses. There are actually no courses that are designed to be taken in sequence, even if they are numbered in sequence.
So for instance, I can take (did take) 147 American Lit 1950-present, which precludes me getting credit for 146 Brit lit.
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posted
Upon review, it looks like most (maybe all) of the UCLA courses are also not really sequences either, except for the 10 series. (That is, they are not required to be taken consecutively.) OTOH, I'm pretty sure you can take at least some of the groups in sequence. Although I'd have to ask a current English major to be sure.
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