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Author Topic: Obesity Vaccine
Allegra
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When I logged on to my e-mail I saw this article and I thought it was interesting. I am kind of glad that it might not be effective on people with bad diets. I think it would be great if it could help people who are genetically predisposed to obesity, but I wouldn't want it to become a quick fix for an unhealthy lifestyle.

http://health.msn.com/dietfitness/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100141805>1=8404

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Noemon
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I was reading about this on the BBC News this morning. I wouldn't want to be one of the human test subjects, I can tell you that.
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Javert
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...somehow, I read the title of the thread as "Obscenity Vaccine"...I need new glasses.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I read this as "Obscenity Vaccine".
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Edgehopper
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quote:
I think it would be great if it could help people who are genetically predisposed to obesity, but I wouldn't want it to become a quick fix for an unhealthy lifestyle.
Good heavens, why not??? Are you also one of those opposed to the HPV vaccine because we shouldn't interfere with God's punishment for promiscuity?

Obesity is a health problem, not divine punishment for immoral habits. We should be treating it as a health problem, and curing it in whatever way possible. If it allows people to eat tasty food while losing weight, so much the better.

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BaoQingTian
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
I was reading about this on the BBC News this morning. I wouldn't want to be one of the human test subjects, I can tell you that.

Yeah, they couldn't pay me enough to do that. I can't believe human testing is only 2 years away. Are there not any potential long term effects to be concerned about? Because honestly the article was kind of scary.
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ssasse
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I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for this one, either, but I can understand that it may end up being a literal lifesaver for some.

My current plan is to leave early for work and walk the 3 miles to get there. I do believe I will need access to a locker and washcloth, though, if this plan is to work. A change of clothes will be a must.

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Noemon
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Oh, sure, if they can work any bugs out if it this will be a real boon for anyone with a weight problem.

I haven't actually read the article linked to in the first post, but in the BBC News article on the same subject they had this to say about possible side effects and long term effects in general:

quote:
"What is surprising about this study is that by producing antibodies to block ghrelin it works as well as it does.

"This is an important proof of principle but there are problems. For example if you develop antibodies against something you can't get rid of them very easily, so if there's anything bad you can't undo it.

"And since ghrelin is present in the brain you might start an immune system response against the brain. It's not necessarily a very safe thing to do - I wouldn't want to be a volunteer."


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Allegra
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quote:
Good heavens, why not??? Are you also one of those opposed to the HPV vaccine because we shouldn't interfere with God's punishment for promiscuity?

Obesity is a health problem, not divine punishment for immoral habits. We should be treating it as a health problem, and curing it in whatever way possible. If it allows people to eat tasty food while losing weight, so much the better.

I am not opposed to the HPV vaccine. I think it is a great idea actually.

I realize it is a health problem. That is why I think this is a great idea. My concern is that if it allows people to eat whatever they want and stay thin, then people will have very unhealthy diets and not think of it as a problem because they are thin. Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight. I want people to be able to eat what they like, but moderation is key for a healthy body. I was glad that this does not look like it will become the quick fix for everyone that does not want to eat a reasonably healthy balanced diet and exercise.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I wouldn't want it to become a quick fix for an unhealthy lifestyle.
I can't imagine why. What would be the conceivable downside?
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by ssasse:
I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for this one, either, but I can understand that it may end up being a literal lifesaver for some.

My current plan is to leave early for work and walk the 3 miles to get there. I do believe I will need access to a locker and washcloth, though, if this plan is to work. A change of clothes will be a must.

That seems like a healthy plan. How long does it take you to walk 3 miles, do you know?
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Allegra
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The unhealthy lifestyle will still effect their whole body. Just because the unhealthy food will not make them heavy it could still give them a heart attack.
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Lalo
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I can't imagine not supporting this, either. I run about thirty miles a week to stay in shape, and it's a huge drain from my time and energy. I love to run, and would probably continue to do so even if it weren't necessary, but I wouldn't want my kids shackled to the same drastic requirements.

Obesity's a health risk, every bit as much as AIDS and lung cancer. Should we not cure those? Or is it just a gut feeling that those who get fat deserve to suffer for it?

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BaoQingTian
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I think that Allegra is saying that our poor nutrition and exercise choices negatively affect us in more ways than just our waistline. Being artificially thin may mask a general state of unhealthiness that could lead to further complications. I don't think she meant it like it sounded.
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by ssasse:
I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for this one, either, but I can understand that it may end up being a literal lifesaver for some.

My current plan is to leave early for work and walk the 3 miles to get there. I do believe I will need access to a locker and washcloth, though, if this plan is to work. A change of clothes will be a must.

I lost a lot of weight once by walking to work 5 days a week, half of it uphill. There was a park across the street; I carried extra deodorant, a change of clothes, a hairbrush, etc. in a backpack, and made the change in the park bathroom, washed up, then walked over to work. I usually got there a bit early and had time to relax around the park for a few minutes before going over. It was nice. [Smile] And very effective (combined with calorie cutting)-- I got down to a size 9, the smallest I've ever been as an adult (probably the smallest I'll ever be, my bone structure is extremely large around the hips and shoulders especially.) That was, let's see, a drop of three dress sizes. [Smile]
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ssasse
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Welll ... it took me two hours this morning, but I stopped at this cute little cafe for a Bubble Tea (of which the two young Japanese women at the counter were out, but this necessitated much discussion in their native language and many apologies in English, so I ended up with a 1/2-priced chai latte and a day-old muffin with cranberries and walnuts, now saved for lunch); and I was distracted by the Enormous sweet blackberries growing by the railroad tracks,* with huge soft druplets just bursting with flavor (my fingertips are stained purple, still); and I had to stop by the VanDusen Botanical Gardens to sign up for membership.

I expect it would be about 45 minutes if I did it at a good clip. I'll try to find out tonight.

---

*This city is crazy. Everywhere there are overflowing blackberry bushes, and nobody gives them a second glance. I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a law against gorging onself on the public berries, but I haven't been able to find one, despite searching. Perhaps it is more of a social stigma thing -- "she's a ... berry-picker" (*haughty sniff).

The raspberry bushes by the side of the tracks were simply full of dried-up little raspberries. So many that the crows couldn't even eat a tenth of them. What is wrong with this city? The land is throwing itself at us in gustatorial excess!

----

Edited to add: Hmmm. On rereading my post, I see a certain flaw in the weight-loss plan becoming rapidly apparent.

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BaoQingTian
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Don't stop, keep going. Living in Nevada, this place that you're describing where something besides sagebrush grows on its own is enthralling.
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Alcon
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I'm with Allegra on this, weight gain is a handy notifier that you are 1) not getting enough exercise and 2) not eating healthily. If we have a quick fix for it people will just get a vaccine or pop a pill and not think twice. They won't realize that they are living extremely unhealthily and won't try and get more exercise and try and change their diets. It's great for people who are genetically predisposed to it and have trouble fighting it even with lots of exercise and a healthy diet. But I wouldn't want it being given out to people who are simply a little chubby and just need to get more exercise and eat better.
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BlackBlade
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Just pop an all purpose adult vitamin with the vaccine and your set.

Well when we find a way to get the benefits of a 1 hour work out in pill form THEN we are set!

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Edgehopper
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Yes, but weight gain causes health problems on its own regardless of diet. If we can alleviate weight gain with a drug, we should. You might as well say, "HPV is a handy notifier that you're sleeping around too much," or "Lung cancer is a handy notifier that you're smoking too much." But no, you'd rather people suffer the consequences of their sin.

Why should people have to eat tofu and sprouts for any reason other than their health? What's wrong with eating McDonald's every day if you can cure the health problems it might cause?

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BaoQingTian
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quote:
What's wrong with eating McDonald's every day if you can cure the health problems it might cause?
Nobody is saying there's wrong with it. You're the one that keeps trying to draw absurd parallels and equate obesity to a moral deficency, not anybody else.

People are merely pointing out that in addition to the health problems that obesity causes (which is what this vaccine would probably solve), obesity is also a symptom of other health problems. They're merely expressing concerns that it may mask underlying problems.

Rather than the HPV analogy, perhaps a headache analogy. If you could take a pill not to ever have a headache again, great. However, headaches that may alert you to a potential tumor, meningitis, aneurysm, stress overload, etc. would also be gone.

I don't think anyone has said that this medication would be a bad thing. I certainly don't think it is. Your statement that it is a cure for poor eating habits is precisly what is concerning.

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The Pixiest
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omg, give me that headache pill RIGHT NOW!!!!

In the mean time, sign me up for this obesity vacine...

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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quote:
This city is crazy. Everywhere there are overflowing blackberry bushes, and nobody gives them a second glance. I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a law against gorging onself on the public berries, but I haven't been able to find one, despite searching.
[Big Grin]
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Edgehopper
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quote:
Nobody is saying there's wrong with it. You're the one that keeps trying to draw absurd parallels and equate obesity to a moral deficency, not anybody else.
quote:
Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.
Looks like someone said there's something wrong with it. I didn't think I was being delusional...

Both Allegra and Alcon said that the problem is that people will live unhealthily despite the obesity vaccine. But what's the problem with eating burgers and such (alongside a multivitamin and possibly cholesterol reducing drugs) other than obesity? There's nothing inherently wrong with such a diet, just with the effects it might cause, of which obesity is the worst.

You can't let the perfect (everyone eats the way doctors say they should) be the enemy of the good (people lose weight and reduce obesity-caused problems.)

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BaoQingTian
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quote:
Originally posted by Edgehopper:
quote:
Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.
Looks like someone said there's something wrong with it. I didn't think I was being delusional...

The way I read it is that it is unhealthy in more ways that just causing obesity. Since the vaccine under discussion is just preventing obesity, it would not prevent the other ways that McDonalds type food can be bad for you.

For example, you know those people that never get fat, no matter how much they seem to eat (mainly teenage boys)? If they existed entirely on a diet of McDonalds, is it healthy? They're not fat after all.


Besides that little tangent we got off on, there are a number of things I'd like to see mentioned in an article about the drug.

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Allegra
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I never meant to imply that people who are overweight are morally lacking. I don't believe I mentioned morality.

If people could eat whatever they want and it have no negative effects, then great no problem. I was just pointing out the other negative effects. Fat is hard on your heart, and the amount of meat in McDonalds is a lot more the 6oz you should get a serving which is hard on your digestive system, It doesn't help that most people don't eat a lot of fiber at McDonalds. Unhealthy foods simply don't make as good of fuel for your body as the healthy alternatives. Have you ever tried to work out after eating a hamburger earlier that day? Maybe this is just me, but I feel sluggish and I just don't perform the same way.

I know it is very hard to eat well and get your daily exercise. I certainly am not the picture of perfect health. I would just hate for Americans to continue to eat this way and possibly get worse when weight is not all you need to worry about.

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Noemon
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quote:
Perhaps it is more of a social stigma thing -- "she's a ... berry-picker" (*haughty sniff).
...and by their purple-stained fingertips shall you know them.

Seriously, though, have you seen anybody else wandering around with purple fingers?

I love the image of you gorging yourself on fruit as you walk to work. [Smile]

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Edgehopper:
quote:
Nobody is saying there's wrong with it. You're the one that keeps trying to draw absurd parallels and equate obesity to a moral deficency, not anybody else.
quote:
Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.
Looks like someone said there's something wrong with it. I didn't think I was being delusional...

Both Allegra and Alcon said that the problem is that people will live unhealthily despite the obesity vaccine. But what's the problem with eating burgers and such (alongside a multivitamin and possibly cholesterol reducing drugs) other than obesity? There's nothing inherently wrong with such a diet, just with the effects it might cause, of which obesity is the worst.

You can't let the perfect (everyone eats the way doctors say they should) be the enemy of the good (people lose weight and reduce obesity-caused problems.)

Stop being such an idiot and read what is written, rather than what you think it says, man.

There are many things wrong with such a diet, and weight gain isn't the wort part of it, not by a long shot.


Allegra said, more than once, that such a pill is a good thing. She also said that it could me a bad thing in some ways. and said it shouldn't be a quick fix for a bad lifestyle.


I'll go one further, myself....most people do deserve to get fat if they eat too much. Lots of people have trouble losing weight, or understanding why they gain so much weight. A lot of those people may have a genetic predisposition towards weight gain, and a drug like this might help a lot. It could make gastric bypass surgery a thing of the past, which would be wonderful considering it's risks.


But if the only reason you can't lose weight is you overeat, or don't care enough to work out, then this pill shouldn't work. It is a medical treatment, not a crib sheet for life, and it will undoubtedly have side effects and risks like every other drug. It probably won't change cholesterol levels, or plaque in the veins and arteries. It won't change the diet to a healthy one at all, as it will still be fried food, lacking most (if not all) nutrients. Also, supplements often are not absorbed by the body the same way, or at the same rate, as nutrients in food are, and are often far less effective than eating well. The more drugs you take the more chance of drug interactions, and there are always side effects to any drug treatment.


I thought of those reasons in less than 2 minutes. I am sure there are many more reasons why this treatment may be a good thing, but not a cure all solution.


So stop pretending you have a right to be offended, and start using your head....and your manners.

Or don't...it's your call.

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Shigosei
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I suspect this sort of vaccine would be a kind of last resort, like gastric bypass surgery. I certainly wouldn't want my immune system targeting a hormone that my body produces--as has been pointed out, we don't know all of the function of ghrelin. Even if human trials show it to be relatively safe, I think I wouldn't get the vaccine just to lose 10-20 pounds. And it's possible that's all the weight loss the vaccine will cause. Still, I think it's great that researchers are looking into ways to help obese people. I hope the vaccine does pan out.
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ssasse
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Noemon, I haven't. I have seen one old lady in a bird hat berry-picking, and that's about it. The bird hat was kind of a downer for the the whole "it ain't crazy" thing, though.

---------

I've never been able to muster up much disgust for those who eat too much. My own monthly cycles regularly send me spinning from "I can't be bothered to eat anything" to "Oh, sweet jimminy cheeses, can I cram all of Chicago into the gaping maw of my mouth?"

If I was always at the state I experience for the one or two days pre-period, I would not be able to wedge myself through a standard-size doorway. I accept this, and I marvel that I can maintain the illusion of complete free will at sporadic points throughout my life. It's a sweet, sweet lie, and I suck it down like a nice, plump, blueberry engorged with the juicy richness of a thous-- ah, what was I saying, again? [Smile]

[ August 04, 2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: ssasse ]

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Edgehopper
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Sorry, Allegra--this is a hot button for me and I was having a bad day anyways. We've all seen thin people who seem to eat whatever they want, rarely if ever exercising without gaining an ounce. Too often, these discussions seem to turn into "Fat people are fat because they eat like pigs, and skinny people eat the way they're supposed to," which just isn't true. I figure that anything that makes losing weight easier, assuming no significant side effects, is a good thing.

If it removes weight gain as a warning sign for heart disease, etc., then I think we should just deal with that problem separately.

I for one welcome our new pharmaceutical overlords, and would like to volunteer my services in their chemical mines [Smile]

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ssasse
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I love Cary Tennis, the advice columnist from Salon.com. I think he is brilliant, thoughful, and a philosopher who writes most carefully and kindly.

Here's [one of] his take[s] on obesity from 2004 (you might need to watch an ad to link into Salon for free, if you are not a member):

quote:
Why do you feel insulted? You probably feel that your boss is, by indirection, speaking disparagingly about your weight, your food choices and your willpower, as if each of us bears a patriotic duty to fight our appetites, to struggle mightily against our eating even as we slather our very souls in the rich nectar of slaughter and science.

I have felt for some time that the obsession with fat is a peculiar cultural sickness that has to do with feminist struggles, social class, professional anxiety, war, privilege, envy, Protestantism, virtue and capitalism.
...
Shanker, who wrote "The Fat Girl's Guide to Life," spoke eloquently about getting over the whole thing about being fat. She told how one day she got into an elevator and a lady said, in obvious reference to Shanker's weight, that she herself would have taken the stairs. Rather than absorb the cutting remark in silent shame, she turned to the lady and said, "I wish you had." That was pretty good. The overall point being, we don't need to walk around being afraid of being fat. If you're fat, OK. If you're thin, OK. Don't you have some work to do?*

And Campos in "The Obesity Myth" says what I had been thinking better than I could: "Thinness has a metaphorical significance in America today," he writes. "Americans -- and especially American elites -- value thinness for precisely the same reason someone suffering from anorexia nervosa does: because not eating means not giving in to desire. Strangely, what the American elites consider most desirable is a body whose appearance signals a triumph of the will over desire itself. Thus, bodily virtue is not so much indicated by thinness per se, but rather by an achieved thinness. Ultimately the war on fat is both a cause and a consequence of the transformation of the Protestant work ethic into the American diet ethic.

*[italics added]

(One of the things I like about CT is that he knows good writing and good thinking when he sees it, and he isn't afraid to cite it.)

I'm often struck by how much of what I dislike in the world -- especially what I find worthy of ranting and raving about, which is entirely too much for those who know and love me -- reflects something I am troubled about in my own past or current situation. This, of course, is a cliche, but it is one I am particularly fond of. Thank goodness people love me anyway. (And please don't show them the errors of their ways.)

I remember sitting buck naked in front of a mirror when I was in preteen years, my back turned to the reflection and my eyes looking over my shoulder. Was there a curve there? And I practiced sucking in my tummy even as I sat. This progressed to duct-taping my waist (when you sweat, it no longer clings, but it still restricts). And lifting my father's diuretic pills, and eating dirt and leaves to fill my belly with minimal calories, and so on and so on.

Now, whenever I think of obesity and body image, I think as a clinician (of the ratio of weight stress on knees, of the changing response to insulin, and of the immense power of media on young people who will be wrapping themselves in duct tape, and turning down the air conditioner to burn more calories, and so forth) as well as my own disgust with and pity for my younger self. I was pretty then, in my own quirky way. The quirkiness had more to do with trying to cut my own bangs than any imagined saddlebags, that's for sure. But all of that emotion from back then comes flooding in, and all of the emotion from now, and all of the anger and responsibility and Protestant work ethic, all of it -- comes roaring back through my head as if caught in the midst of a river rushing headlong to the sea.

And I pretty much set it aside. I concentrate on specific, tangible goals, I think about how hard life is for every last one of us on this planet, and I try to grant myself as much charity as I am willing to do others.

Nobody -- nobody -- who is obese in this society is going to be suprised or enlightened by anyone else telling them that this is so. They know. I do believe, myself, that finding some way to encourage whatever positive aspects there are in our own and our friends' lives is most likely to lead to the bigger good changes overall. Being happy has a way of inciting interest in more happiness, and if the most functional life (whatever that may be) is the goal, then inciting happiness seems to be an excellent thing to strive for.

I don't live up to this all the time, and I am not firmly settled on this as an answer. However, should a vaccine like this make life easier overall for those who are obese, I suspect that increased activity outdoors, more interest in more diverse pursuits (physical and mental), and an increased willingness to take healthy risks (like learning to swim, or flying out to visit grandchildren, or hiking trips along the Appalachian Trail) might well result.

It's always a mixed bag of results, anyway. There will always be positive and negative fallout from any policy. Still, I suspect that inciting happiness is the way to go, all things considered. This does presuppose a rather optimistic view of human nature as well as a pragmatic mindset, neither of which may be convincing to some. Understandably. So it goes. [Smile]

[ August 04, 2006, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: ssasse ]

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El JT de Spang
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Lord, it's criminal that you don't want children, Sara. I wish you were my mother. Y'know, since you're married and all. [Wink]
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Allegra
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quote:
Sorry, Allegra--this is a hot button for me and I was having a bad day anyways. We've all seen thin people who seem to eat whatever they want, rarely if ever exercising without gaining an ounce. Too often, these discussions seem to turn into "Fat people are fat because they eat like pigs, and skinny people eat the way they're supposed to," which just isn't true. I figure that anything that makes losing weight easier, assuming no significant side effects, is a good thing.

No problem. To be honest the thin people who never gain an ounce annoy me too. It really isn't fair that some people can eat a whole pizza in a setting a stay a size 2 and other people exercise and eat right and they still aren't the size they want to be.

As a 19 year-old in America I am very weight conscious. I have to work much harder then most people my age to not gain weight. Part of me would love a vaccine that would make it so i could eat whatever i wanted when I wanted it and be thin.

I was just pointing out that being thin is not the only reason to eat a good diet. I do not have enough faith in our understanding of the body to think that we are capable of treating all of the other problems the unhealthy diet would cause. Not to mention the side effects that a lot of medication has. I just think that in general it is good to fix what you can with your health in more natural ways.

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rivka
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Sara, that was a wonderful post. [Smile]
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Sharpie
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I know I'm dittoing, but -- Sara, that was a wonderful post.
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ssasse
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[Smile]

(That totally made my day, especially coming from you all. Thank you.)

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Edgehopper:

Obesity is a health problem, not divine punishment for immoral habits. We should be treating it as a health problem, and curing it in whatever way possible. If it allows people to eat tasty food while losing weight, so much the better.

Here here. I am not terribly obese, I am fit, but I am (as one side of my family is) predisposed to being heavy. Its very difficult for me to be healthy because I eat better than all my friends, and get more excercise, and yet I am still fatter than they are. People who don't know me, no doubt think that I am lazy, have a terrible diet, and am probably a bad person or a lazy one.

Far from it, friends have startled me with comments that I am the "healthiest person they know." I see myself in the mirror and say: that isn't possible, you look better than me. But they see the way I am, the things I do and know that it isn't my fault. I am really the type of person for whom anti-obesity drugs were made, and yet I will always face that kind of reaction to it: these people are lazy, they are worthless, they are obviously stupid.

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Edgehopper:

I for one welcome our new pharmaceutical overlords, and would like to volunteer my services in their chemical mines [Smile]

At the very least, I bet it would be a good way to lose weight.
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JenniK
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Kwea posting as JenniK because she forgot to log out again!!!! (from JenniK)


Ori, there is a middle ground. It is possible for people to think you could be healthier without thinking you are worthless or lazy....and it is possible for you to think that as well.


I am overweight, but part of that is because I am only 5'6" tall. Even when I was in the Army the weight charts said I was overweight....and I was so think at that point that you could see individual ribs through my tee shirts. I don't exercise the way I should, and I have poor eating habits. I don't blame anyone other than myself for my weight gain, even though I know a lot of people who eat worse and exercise less than I do who don't gain weight like I do.

But I refuse to beat myself up about it. Nor do I allow anyone else to give me a hard time about it either.


I am not hugely obese, but if I was I would consider this drug as a way to help control my weight and improve my health. It wouldn't be the only thing I did to work on it, though, and it wouldn't solve the more serious problems I worry about.

[ August 05, 2006, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: JenniK ]

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Kwea
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That post was me, not JenniK, BTW. She forgot to log out.
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Alcon
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My worry about the drug has nothing to do with obese people being worthess or lazy. I think neither of them. I know someone who could probably use the drug, he was nearing fatal obesity and had to work very very hard to just get down to healthy levels.

My problem with it is that I am in general against turning to drugs and medications to solve problems that could be solved with out them. Yes there are cases where such a vaccine would be a wonderful thing. However, over reliance on drugs never leads to good places. Over use of antibiotics is leading to stronger bacteria. When kids are antsi in class, doctors and parents simply give them ridalin or similar drugs rather than more recess and free time in the outdoors to run around. When people have a headache they simply pop a tylonol rather than trying to figure out why they have a headache. This is a huge problem in our society.

My fear with this vaccine is that when it comes out, if it is made available to people who don't really need it we'll end up with people who are simply a little chubby taking it.

I wouldn't have a problem with it being restricted to people who are truely obese and truely need it. I do have a problem with someone taking it to try and cut a few inches off their waist line when they are already beautiful and simply need to get out a little more.

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pH
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Drugs can be very helpful in certain cases. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a Tylenol for a headache. Not every headache is a sign of some huge, underlying problem. I do think that ADD/ADHD is overdiagnosed, and the corresponding drugs are overprescribed, but there are plenty of instances where psychiatric medicines are helpful, and in many cases, anti-medication attitudes can prevent people from doing something that would help them immensely.

I honestly think that this drug would probably be a much preferable alternative to gastric bypass surgery. But at the same time, I wonder about the long-term effects (by which I mean 10+ years after). That's the kind of thing you can't really study...you just have to wait and see.

-pH

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Allegra
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I am anti-unneeded medication. There is nothing wrong with treating a headache, but if you get reoccuring headaches that you maybe you should figure out why you are getting the headaches instead of just taking tylenol.

I think medication can be great. It allows people with a variety of problems to live happier healthier lives. I just think that if there is a way to fix a problem without medication it is worth exploring.

Edit: typo

[ August 05, 2006, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Allegra ]

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SoaPiNuReYe
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They don't just put fat in those burgers, theres all sorts of artificial cow hormones and junk like that so any potential negative effects from those substances wouldn't be negated at all.
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BaoQingTian
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This seems similar to the hype about leptin a few years ago.
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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by SoaPiNuReYe:
They don't just put fat in those burgers, theres all sorts of artificial cow hormones and junk like that so any potential negative effects from those substances wouldn't be negated at all.

You mean, just like they put in most milk, fruits, vegetables, and other foods that you buy yourself at the grocery store?

-pH

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Allegra
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Unless you choose to pay more and get the products without all of that stuff.
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pH
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Yes, but most people do not do that.

-pH

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Allegra
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Very true. I was just pointing out that it is possible to avoid those things if you have the money and the desire.
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