posted
"The Straight Dope" on suicide and illegality (By Cecil Adams -- has US stuff at the bottom. Basically, only 6 states as of 1963 had it on the books, and the law was not prosecuted anyway.)
I'd have opened it and checked to see what was there to identify the owner as a matter of course. I had assumed (naively?) that most stuff on carry-around UBCs would be work files, as that is what everyone I know uses the portability for anyway. I'd argue that if you carry it around where you can lose it (and where other people have been known to lose things, like keys and purses and whatnot), you accept at least some responsibility for losing it. You took the risk. Not that I'd be all in-your-face with this guy about it -- of course! -- but I wouldn't feel like a snooping thief just for having opened a personal file, especially if it was ambiguously titled.
On the other hand, having someone confront (or mention, or in any way acknowledge) my deepest distresses in the throes of depression could well have pushed me over into total despair. My issues took the mental form of being a burden on the world, and knowing that I was being visibly burdensome to yet one more person would have been agonizing. I tried to hide it as best I could, day in and day out. (Mind you, I wasn't carrying around suicide notes in my back pocket, either.)
I don't say that to discourage anyone from talking to a distressed person, but more to raise the idea that -- at least for some people in certain circumstances -- this is not an unequivocably Good Thing. Like Mrs. M, I'd feel more comfortable having a trained professional get involved (e.g., through a local free/sliding-scale mental health center) if it was a stranger who I didn't know well at all. Another alternative is to call a local or national suicide hotline and speak to someone who is trained there on how to best deal with this situation.*
posted
Plenty of people keep very personal things in their wallets, such as condensed medical histories, condoms, love letters. Personally, I wouldn't keep my will on a USB drive that I carried around with me, either, and I would generally expect the things found on a USB drive to be less personal that the things found in a wallet. Generally, I would expect them to be used for work documents a person had brought home to work on, photos they were taking to share with someone, school papers, or writings in progress. I think Tom stumbling across a will and a suicide note is just as unlikely as stumbling across them in a purse or briefcase, and his checking the USB drive was no more an invasion of privacy than checking one of those would be.
It's unfortunate, of course, that he found what he did, and I agree that Tom's not trained to deal with the situation. But I've called the police about a suicidal statement before, in the course of my job. The police sent someone out to check on the person. As the person answered the door and said they were fine, and did not seem to be an immediate danger to themselves, the police left. Unless they have probable cause to believe that the person is an immediate danger to themselves, that's all they can do. They don't check back. They don't refer them for counseling. They can't.
The person in question, of course, was furious with me and my company. Which is fine, I did what I was legally required to do, and since I was acting as a representative of my company when I was made aware of the situation I didn't have a choice. In Tom's situation, I'm not sure what I would do. I think I would meet the person first, although I would do it in a public place ("Hey, I found your USB drive, want to meet for coffee Wednesday after work so I can give it back to you?") and try to get a feel for how the person's doing. If they've gone so far as to write a suicide note and put it on a drive, it would suggest that they're in pretty bad shape. But I can't help but think that a friendly ear would do them more good than a visit from the police.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Would those of you who're advocating complete anonymity explain why? I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale behind that suggestion.
This might be in part because you are such an extrovert. (I'm not sure, but I think so.) Being with other people tends to energize you. Being with other people when one is an introvert can be overwhelmingly draining, and it may not be helpful to someone at the end of his or her rope. In that case, staying anonymous can be a kindness, as he doesn't have to manage the awkwardness of the situation.
Not sure if this is what others are thinking, but I was thinking "Oh, how wonderful it would be just to get the USB back with nobody to thank, and figure out how to thank, and then watch his eyes and voice and stance to see if he read it (eek!), and then have to get him off the doorstop without being rude when he was already so nice and I owe him and I owe everybody and I just can't get anything right and I'll probably mess up his life and make him mad and and and ..."
But then again, I'm not nominating myself for any social prizes. *grin
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quote:But I can't help but think that a friendly ear would do them more good than a visit from the police.
My post took the 49th position on the last page, so it's fallen into the well of non-existance, but I agree.
I wouldn't mention anything on the drive though. "So, I was reading your will..." I can't believe that would help.
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CT, you put all of that really well. Those two posts summed up all my feelings about the risk the guy took putting that stuff on his thumb drive and the most considerate way to handle returning it.
Quite frankly, I would probably leave the thing somewhere where he could just find it, like that's where it had been all along, thus relieving him of the burden of worrying about what got read and/or how to deal with all the gratitude/what does this guy know about me/social issues.
If I was still worried about him and wanted to help, I could try to figure out some context to do that which was independent of the drive (like the possible mutual aquaintance).
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As an introvert myself, I disagree. As I said on the previous page, during the times where I was depressed enough to contemplate suicide, I think I would have appreciated somebody reaching out.
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In terms of Tom's giving it back but not mentioning to the guy that he'd opened the contents, the Last Accessed date on the files will indicate that they were read by *someone* if the guy bothers to look at them (which I would do, were I in his place). Worth keeping in mind.
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I've done nothing yet, because the coworker in question has been out sick since Friday. I figured I'd hold off until I ran it by him, at the very least.
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quote:In fact, if I had nothing irreplaceable in the drive I would have preferred that it never be returned rather than have a social interaction to get it back.
That's not introversion. That's social dysfunction.
I'm being completely serious about this. If there are people here who really feel this way, you should consider seeking professional help.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: As an introvert myself, I disagree. As I said on the previous page, during the times where I was depressed enough to contemplate suicide, I think I would have appreciated somebody reaching out.
That is very true. Depression does change the equation.
I guess if I ever get depressed, especially suicidally so, I too would prefer to have people reaching out. My earlier statement would apply only to my "normal" days.
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MrSquicky, I'll go on record as stating that I think the described situation could be normal variation in human introversion, a situation of social dysfunction, or some blend of the two (e.g., strong introversion overlaid with depression). That is, I'd say you advance one possible tenable assessment, but I don't think it's the only one.
Nothing in my clinical training or experience leads me to think otherwise (i.e., that this is more clear-cut), but I would be happy to just amicably disagree on this point. I just wanted another opinion out there on the table. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
He could be keeping the suicide note on the drive as a sort of reminder of how bad things had been at one point a long time ago. A sort of magic charm to keep things from ever being that bad again.
That sounds like something I would do.
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posted
CT, I'll bow to you superior experience and training. I'm not a trained clinician.
I want to emphasize, though, that this could be an indication of a potential problem that there people out there set up specifically to help you deal with.
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posted
One major problem with introversion and depression (as I see it) is that being around other people seems to be one of those things which do help, at least for many. (Others include sunlight, excercise, regular sleeping habits, etc.) However, this isn't a blanket recommendation -- while being around others in certain ways may be helpful, it may not be helpful if the experience is of a different sort. I suspect (though I can't say with certainty) that anxiety-diminishing interactions are helpful in general, but that anxiety-provoking interactions may well be harmful, in general.
I'd consider anxiety-diminishing interactions to be things like parallel play (e.g., sitting in a cafe with other people while you all do your own thing: write, read the paper, etc) and structured/predictable social encounters (e.g., "Hello. Yes, it is a nice day, isn't it? We had so much rain this month. Well, hope your day goes smoothly.").
I'd consider an interaction where a participant feels he or she has to explain him/herself about an emotionally-laden and self-challenging topic to be generally anxiety-producing, as it is unpredictable as well as of distressing content.
But there is room for variation in this, in personality type as well as experience. I am certain that there are many people on this board (and elsewhere) who would not find the same interactions anxiety-producing as I do. That's great! But I do think some would, and given that we are caring and gentle folk, I think that's worth a moment of reflection before making decisions in troublesome times.
[Edited to add: Which is why I do love the title of this thread. I think it speaks well of Tom's thoughtfulness.]
(And now I'll bow out for a bit, not for reasons of anxiety, but merely the call of work and life. *smile)
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: CT, I'll bow to you superior experience and training. I'm not a trained clinician.
And do recall that I am, and have been, many kinds of a fool in both my personal and professional life. *grin Grain of salt comes provided.
quote:I want to emphasize, though, that this could be an indication of a potential problem that there people out there set up specifically to help you deal with.
Oh, for sure! No doubt about it, it's worth a second thought.
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I agree with m_p_h. I'm also an introvert; I need a lot of time by myself. However, I also need (and love) people. If I'm feeling sad, I might want to be alone but if someone came and visited and gave me back something I had lost, I would feel immensely grateful.
Said person is not asking me to go to loud raucous parties, they're just saying "hi". And that's nice.
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posted
Also, don't assume that just because a depressed or introverted person doesn't accept the gesture when somebody reaches out that it didn't do any good. Just knowing that somebody tried to reach out, even if I shot them down, is a good thing.
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quote:I'd consider an interaction where a participant feels he or she has to explain him/herself about an emotionally-laden and self-challenging topic to be generally anxiety-producing, as it is unpredictable as well as of distressing content.
I should emphasize that this is not what I was talking about, but I can see where this might be people parse the situation. I was reacting to the idea that a person would rather lose something like a USB drive than go into a situation where someone comes up to you and say "Hey, I found this USB drive and I think it's yours."
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quote:Also, don't assume that just because a depressed or introverted person doesn't accept the gesture when somebody reaches out that it didn't do any good. Just knowing that somebody tried to reach out, even if I shot them down, is a good thing.
posted
Last aside: It's worth noting, too, that introversion and extroversion seem to be qualities on a more-or-less continuous scale, as opposed to either/or characteristics. I suspect that there are people in the fair to middlin' range of either.
I know that my natural tendencies tend to place me at a more extreme end of introversion, making Caring for Your Introvert a breath-takingly refreshing read. I have trouble imagining getting charged up by interacting with people, even though I do like it, as opposed to something like sitting on a rock and staring at the horizon, musing quietly for hours as the sun passes across the sky. (Yum, yum! Vrrroooooom!) However, I know that I suffer when I am not with my friends, and I have been lucky to have found some that are particularly generous about dealing with quirks and eccentricities. And, too, I've developed strategies to learn how to recharge while going through people-packed days. Still, I'm sure I don't "get" much about how life works for a great multitude of people on this planet, and that in itself is kind of sad.
Life is pretty harsh.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I was reacting to the idea that a person would rather lose something like a USB drive than go into a situation where someone comes up to you and say "Hey, I found this USB drive and I think it's yours."
Yeah, but for me, knowing what was on the drive [the drive in question; i.e., suicide note, Dear John letter, formal will, etc.] and that this person must have seen some of it in order to identify me -- that would be really stressful. If I didn't already have my little social sea legs under me, I'd probably start blurting out explanations, turn crimson, and work myself up into a little fit.
I think it would be excruciatingly painful for all involved.
Whew. Reminds me never to put anything personal on my jumpdrive.
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posted
Here's the thing - none of us know this person, so we can't know what his preferences are. I think it would be best to let the proper authorities handle this.
Why not call a suicide hotline and ask them for advice? They're toll free and maybe they can give you some guidance.
BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
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quote:BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
Really? Hrm. If I can't trust myself to do the right thing, why should I trust the police?
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quote:Here's the thing - none of us know this person, so we can't know what his preferences are. I think it would be best to let the proper authorities handle this.
Why would it be preferable to have an authority read your personal stuff than a non-authorized stranger?
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quote:BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
Huh. I would consider that, in most cases, a waste of the police's time. Plus in this case the person would probably never get the drive back, although you said you would consider that preferable. He indicated it took some work on his part to get it working again, I'd guess that most police departments are busy enough that they wouldn't bother with it and just toss it into unclaimed property, to be auctioned off to the highest bidder next time a police auction came around. Then who knows who ends up with it?
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You said that you found an address and name in the drive. Did you also find a phone number? It might be a less invasive and safer (for you) option to call the guy and ask him if he wants the drive back. Depending on how the conversation goes, you could decide what other actions you may want to take.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Last aside: It's worth noting, too, that introversion and extroversion seem to be qualities on a more-or-less continuous scale, as opposed to either/or characteristics. I suspect that there are people in the fair to middlin' range of either.
I know that my natural tendencies tend to place me at a more extreme end of introversion, making Caring for Your Introvert a breath-takingly refreshing read. I have trouble imagining getting charged up by interacting with people, even though I do like it, as opposed to something like sitting on a rock and staring at the horizon, musing quietly for hours as the sun passes across the sky. (Yum, yum! Vrrroooooom!) However, I know that I suffer when I am not with my friends, and I have been lucky to have found some that are particularly generous about dealing with quirks and eccentricities. And, too, I've developed strategies to learn how to recharge while going through people-packed days. Still, I'm sure I don't "get" much about how life works for a great multitude of people on this planet, and that in itself is kind of sad.
Life is pretty harsh.
I have had this article bookmarked for a long time. Refreshing indeed!
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posted
I think colling the police about the suicide note would be a terrible idea. I think the person would feel his privacy even more violated by police at the door than by an ordinary guy.
And as for him latching on...is it better for him not to latch on and possibly carry out suicidal notions, or latch on and be alive? I mean, yeah, it's REALLY inconvenient to have someone cling to you like a barnacle. I know from experience. But at the same time, it might create more time for others to get help for the guy, or for him to decide to get help on his own.
I still worry that he's already gone through with his plan. And I think the longer you wait, the more likely that is. I keep thinking of that story about some kid who got picked on all the time at school, and one day an older boy helped him carry his books home...and that just HAPPENED to be the day that the younger boy had planned on killing himself as soon as he got to his house, but he decided not to because someone showed him kindness in that moment.
posted
I've been discussing this with Andrew and his first questions were:
1. If this guy is really suicidal, why is [TomDavidson] talking about it on an internet forum? Shouldn't he be doing something immediately?
2. How is [TomDavidson] qualified to help someone who is suicidal?
3. Why hasn't he turned it into the police?
The police have departments that deal with lost/stolen property. If I had lost my USB drive, that's the first place I would go. If I found a USB drive, that's where I would take it. I would also probably then make posters saying that I found a USB drive and turned it into the police.
I would also report a suicide note to the police and possibly call Social Services. I know that I am not qualified to deal with a suicidal person and they are. I wouldn't want to risk harming this person.
I just don't understand why you feel that your best or only choice is to return this drive yourself. Why not call a suicide hotline or even a mental hospital? Why not call the police station and explain the situation? There are trained people who can give you guidance.
And, yes, I would rather the police be in possession of my personal property than a civilian stranger.
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posted
I have personally returned many things that have ID attached. This includes everything from wallets to dogs. I've also had many things returned to me. I've never felt anything but gratitude in either the giving or the receiving.
The police take longer and are required to follow-up on anything illegal. I'd rather be a good samaritan than a snitch. Who knows whether this guy wrote this in a moment of incontrolled emotion or as a serious attempt at suicide?
FWIW, I agree with pH. If the guy is serious about the suicide, it has probably already happened. If he is not serious about it, then why push him over the edge by getting the authorities involved and having a suicide threat put on his record.
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posted
When was the file created, Tom? I know that the date probably just reflects when it was put on the thumb drive, but still, if it has a creation date of 6 months ago I think we can rule out the idea that he's poised on the brink of doing himself in.
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posted
He's alive, as of yesterday, and I've spoken to him over the phone and will return the drive when I get the chance. The letter in question, though, was "created" only last month, which would have been a week or two before I found it.
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posted
I've said my piece, so let's leave it at that. I would like to suggest that if you truly believe this person to be depressed, don't give him alcohol, which will makes depression worse.
mph - I trust police to do the right thing and help me if I'm in danger. I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion. I can't say that about strangers.
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quote:mph - I trust police to do the right thing and help me if I'm in danger. I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion. I can't say that about strangers.
posted
Maybe it depends on how corrupt or efficient/inefficient one is accustomed to the local police force being.
I know Tom grew up in a location where a lost USB would be at the bottom of anyone's priority list and a cop pocketing it would be the expectation not the exception, unfortunately. Not to mention he'd have been discriminated against for his race also.
Now Tom's current location probably doesn't have that same level of corruption, and has considerably more municipal concern. However if one is accustomed to the one end of the spectrum, you must take personal responsibility because the police are going to be basically worse than useless.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Would those of you who're advocating complete anonymity explain why? I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale behind that suggestion.
To let the guy save face, save embarrassment. I'd feel violated if someone had gone through my files, especially things as personal as you described. I would not appreciate the person who made me feel that way coming by to hang out.
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posted
Now it's been addressed, I can't delete it. I didn't mean to post that, or if I knew it went through I would have deleted it immeadiatly.
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posted
I'd be worried about any authorities overreacting because they have to cover their butts. I sometimes get the impression that the mental health professionals here do the same thing, which is why I wouldn't ever admit to suicidal feelings. It's a shame, because I do have some OCD-type feelings where I worry that I might hurt myself but don't actually want to. I'd like to discuss them, but I don't need the counselor freaking out that I might hurt myself.
Unless you're pretty sure that something is about to happen, I would not get the authorities involved. I think calling the suicide hotline and asking for advice would be the best route to go.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck, Tom.
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quote: I agree with m_p_h. I'm also an introvert; I need a lot of time by myself. However, I also need (and love) people. If I'm feeling sad, I might want to be alone but if someone came and visited and gave me back something I had lost, I would feel immensely grateful.
I find this line of the conversation interesting. If it were a depressed me, I would not want somebody to befriend me because they found a suicide note. I would be a "charity" friend and would find the situation humiliating and further proof of my perceived inadequacies. I need and love people as well but that need, especially when depressed, would not be strong enough to endure the self-hatred that would come from being somebody's project. Clearly, different people feel differently about this.
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I'd be worried about any authorities overreacting because they have to cover their butts. I sometimes get the impression that the mental health professionals here do the same thing, which is why I wouldn't ever admit to suicidal feelings. It's a shame, because I do have some OCD-type feelings where I worry that I might hurt myself but don't actually want to. I'd like to discuss them, but I don't need the counselor freaking out that I might hurt myself.
A good counselor won't spaz and should know the difference between an obsession on an image and the actual desire to go hrough with it. Maybe find someone who is used to OCD patients instead of suicidal emo college students who won't think that the prevelence of an image means you'll go through with it. But that's kind of a matter of feeling out the therapist, which kinda sucks.
1) My father was a police officer. He taught us that when lost things were found (i.e., a wallet on the street), you turned them into the proper authorities -- without going through them. The officer inventoried them in front of the "findee" and then made the attempt to return them where they belonged. The "findee" could choose to be identified to the person whose item was being returned. 2) Saving face. I certainly wouldn't want the angst of wondering whether or not the person returning the lost item had stumbled across provate material in an effort to find out who the item belonged to. Whereas, a trained professional will address the concern directly. And have a far better idea more than likely of possible resources. 3) Taking a depressed person out for a drink is a really bad idea. Unless you're talking a root beer. But, again frankly, I wouldn't want to be befriended on the basis of someone's alarm or pity. Nor is that helpful in the long run to helping build esteem, self-confidence, or moving through whatever garbage is causing unhappiness. 4) Personal Safety. Having been on the finding end of successful suicide, and failed suicides, I can pretty much guarantee that you don't want that in your head, in your nose, on your skin, in your psyche . . . nor do you want an unbalanced person to decide what will really make him/her feel better is to do a little collateral damage to a person trying to be friendly and helpful. /paranoia
*shrugs*
Do what you think best, Tom -- I think folks have tried to tell you straight out what they think, what they would do, how they would approach the situation -- one of the truly lovely things about Hatrack.
For me, I would have turned the USB over to the police, letting them know where and when I found it, without ever putting the sucker in my PC to check it out. I don't think I can ever explain it -- but to me it feels far more invasive to me to have someone I probably don't know dig into my files, as opposed to police.
posted
Around here, the cops have better things to do than play the city lost and found. Turning in lost items to them would be like flinging them into a black hole.
posted
Glad you found it... Never know if your call just to say that you'd found the info (regardless of if it's known what was read, etc) was enough to make the writer do a double-take. Kudos to you for calling.
I know it's a 'cheesy' forward but have you ever read the one about the kid who helped a classmate carry his books home from school one day? We just never know what seemingly small action we take will help to change a life for the better.
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quote:I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion.
Having known many police officers I'd have to say that that's a huge generalization to make. Sure, some police officers are how you describe, but i know many younger people that just got into it because they didn't know what else to do with themselves and the police were hiring. And the benefits are good.
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If I found it in any kind of establishment, turned it over to the Lost and Found of that establishment. If I lost something, the first thing I'd do is go back to the place I lost it in hopes that someone had turned it in.
If I found it on the street, probably looked at the contents and the dates to see if it was something someone would want. If so, I would have looked for an e-mail address or a way to get into contact with them. Once contact was established, returned the item immediately - as soon as I found it if possible.
If I ran across a suicide note, probably would have done the same as above. When I met to return the device, I would have handed them a piece of paper with referrals on it, apologized a thousand times for my temerity, and given some personal assurance that help could be found. However, for the last, I have absolutely no experience with it. If it really seemed like something would happen soon, I'd tell someone else- maybe the police. I absolutely do not feel equipped to handle it myself.
--
I lost my planner once on the street when I was in college. It was attached to the back of my bike and bounced off. I didn't notice until I got home, and I'd been all over town - I had no idea where I'd lost it. Within an hour, a man called me to say he'd found it and was returning it. He'd called the number at the front but that was to my permanent address, and my stepmother didn't know my phone number at school (embarrassing for her, amusing for me). He looked through the address book and found my number (under "M" for "Me"). I was incredibly grateful.
I actually think an offer to go out or of friendship at that point would have felt like an imposition. Returning my lost item is courteous, but if someone wanted to be closer to me as a result - whatever the motivation - that would be icky.
I think it's because returning it quickly and without any expectations of a continued relationship feels like a simple service - they did what they to to get it back to me, and now our encounter is over. Going through it and then delaying the return or wanting something - anything, for any motivation - feels more like an uninvited and invasive step into my life.
The first is the result of people inevitably encountering each other in a civilization, but the second is coming where they weren't invited and don't need to be.
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-CT]
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
And I think the longer you wait, the more likely that is. I keep thinking of that story about some kid who got picked on all the time at school, and one day an older boy helped him carry his books home...and that just HAPPENED to be the day that the younger boy had planned on killing himself as soon as he got to his house, but he decided not to because someone showed him kindness in that moment.
