quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: It's just a normal Southern Protestant service, basically.
Not out to offend anyone but alot of the more shocking things (kids convulsing and speaking in tongues) have been around thousands of years. I still wish they did not exert an influence in Christianity.
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My problem with the trailer is the talk at the end making it sound like some sort of Evangelical conspiracy has started. Brings up nasty reminders of hate groups speaking about the International Jewish Conspiracy.
So they are a little louder when preaching then most. The movie makes it look like indoctrination, but is it really any different then anyone else teaching religion to their children?
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Oh, absolutely. Many religions believe that approaching the divine with that kind of, uh, zeal is counter-productive.
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By the way, it's kind of idiotic to name the film 'Jesus Camp' and expect people to think you are being fair and evenhanded with your subject.
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Yeah, with the name "Jesus Camp" I was expecting things like...
The Summer Vacation of Tweenie Jesus.
Camp Counselor--"I'm sorry son, but you can't get your swimming badge until you get into the water. Walking across it doesn't count."
Camp Nurse--"Healing little Timmy was very nice, but don't exagerate. It wasn't plague, only poison ivy."
Camp Director, "Well the numbers aren't spectacular, but you have to admit, this is the greatest Parents Day ever!"
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I wonder where the line is drawn between "devout" and "fanatical".
I think they crossed that line. When they are comparing themselves to militant Islamic camps that "put grenades" in kids hands, and calling themselves the "Army of God." I think that definitely crosses the line into "fanatical." And fanatics scare me. They have left reason behind and are far too single minded.
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quote:Posted by Launchywiggin: I wonder where the line is drawn between "devout" and "fanatical".
This trailer provides good case study. You can see them toe the line throughout the beginning portion, and then take a flying leap over it about a minute and a half into it. I think the precise moment occurs when you have a big crowd of pre-teens chanting "righteous justice".
Of course, the trailer was designed to go that route, so I take it with a grain of salt. Especially when they focus on these kids for the first 3/4 of the video, then transition abruptly from the "righteous justice" scene straight to a shot of a mega-church with a voice-over saying "theres a new church like this every two days in America."
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I personally think the most terrifying thing in the movie is that they gave a microphone to a 10-year-old with the most dramatic mullet I've ever seen.
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quote:posted by Hank: I personally think the most terrifying thing in the movie is that they gave a microphone to a 10-year-old with the most dramatic mullet I've ever seen.
I'd call it more of a rattail. We can definitely agree on the word "dramatic" though. Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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In my old comic about the apocalypse, the hardcore Baptist part of the Divine, when He assumed human form, had as one of His most awe-inspiring attributes an ineffable mullet. It wasn't just any party in the back; it was a party beyond all human reckoning.
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I really want to see this movie, despite the fact that I think it's going to be intensely difficult to watch.
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From what I understand, evangelicalism and the Pentecostals rose right around the time the liberal modernists were taking some of the mystery out of the scriptures. I think that human beings want something to believe in, to be part of something great, and to be good people. Being agnostic or irreligious doesn't remove that need. I was reading the Washington Post this morning, and in the Style section was an article that was basically advice to mothers on how to have a balanced life and not be depressed. The article recommended good eating, daily exercise, and "spiritual nourishment, like yoga or meditation." This being the Washington Post, it didn't mention that being involved in a community group that fed a person spiritually and provided a support system of other mothers going through the same thing might be useful.
No matter how much people like to pretend that the yearning to be part of something bigger than oneself is risible and scary, it doesn't make that need go away.
Clearly it resonates. I think there is more usefulness in trying to discover people instead of looking down on them. At the end you may understand human nature better instead of reinforcing your own narrow ideas. Assuming that the millions and millions of people who are happy to be actively Christian are treading on dangerous ground seems like a dead end, intellectually, to me. It is by definition misanthropic to think that what certainly seems like a fundamental part of human nature is risible and despicable.
"Army of God" is an old, old idea. Armies are even older (I think). Maybe instead of stoking people to war, it's an attempt to channel that human impulse for war into something great instead of something destructive? It isn't rousing anything - it's sublimating it into socially productive channels.
quote:1. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle see his banners go! Refrain: Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.
2. At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee; on then, Christian soldiers, on to victory! Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise; brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. (Refrain)
3. Like a mighty army moves the church of God; brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, one in hope and doctrine, one in charity. (Refrain)
4. Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane, but the church of Jesus constant will remain. Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail; we have Christ's own promise, and that cannot fail. (Refrain)
5. Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng, blend with ours your voices in the triumph song. Glory, laud, and honor unto Christ the King, this through countless ages men and angels sing. (Refrain)
Emphasis is mine. This rousing call to war means being having charity and voicing praise, and it promises stability and place to belong no matter what happens between nations. Come on - that's not terrifying. I think it's great and a worthy goal.
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quote:No matter how much people like to pretend that the yearning to be part of something bigger than oneself is risible and scary, it doesn't make that need go away.
Kat, I think you're overstating your premise here. I don't know many people who "pretend that the yearning to be part of something bigger than oneself is risible and scary". What is scary is giving into that natural desire irrationally. Yes, it is a natural desire, but it is also the desire at the root of Jonestown, Waco, and Heaven's Gate. Sure there's room for debate as to what "somethings bigger than oneself" are beneficial, detrimental, or benign, but broadly painting the other side as ridiculers of the idea in itself is a straw man at best.
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quote:It is by definition misanthropic to think that what certainly seems like a fundamental part of human nature is risible and despicable.
Why? Many religions, in fact, preach that things which appear to be fundamental parts of human nature are risible and despicable. You might even argue that one of the primary functions of any society is identifying which primary functions of human nature are going to be considered risible and despicable.
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I saw the trailer. I don't think it's fanaticism. There were no blood sacrifices going on, no calls for actual violence in war. But it still gets called "fanaticism - creepy and narrow regardless of the reason."
What I've learned from this thread is that there are still groups that it is considered okay to mock.
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Yes, well? A desire to mock those who are different is also a 'fundamental part of human nature'. Who are you to say that this is a bad thing?
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I have no problem with people wanting to be part of something bigger than themselves, and I agree Katharina, that it can be a very natural desire, and it's not necessarily bad.
I find it terrifying when people in religious communities decide that it is necessary to look down on other people and say that they're wrong. I find it distressing that this close minded attitude is the mainstay of many religions, even the ones that profess tolerance and acceptance. There are always things that religions are unwilling to accept, and I find this hypocritical.
And bringing up Onward Christian Soldiers, and saying it promises peace and stability between nations is silly. It promises peace between nations as long as those nations are Christian. It's not talking about accepting the idea that other people believe in other things and that doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different.
A little personal history:
I was raised Catholic. I hated every second of it, from about, oh, 4 or 5 years old. I went to Sunday school, got all the Sacraments, and even when I was told that Confirmation was the 'choice' to become an adult member of the Church, I was told I had no choice. Once I was confirmed, I exercised my right to never return to a place that espoused so many ideas I could never agree with. My only fond memories of Church are the music, and arguing with my last Sunday School teacher about gay rights.
I like Jesus. Jesus was great. I do believe that a lot of His teachings have been twisted over the years. I also like Buddha. The closest thing I have to a god right now is Lord Ganesha, the elephant headed son of Siva from Hinduism. There are parts of all religions that I find beautiful, and I feel them all incorporated within myself.
But I refuse to join any organized religion because ALL of them (that I've heard of, I know there are divisions in Christianity that are sort of okay with it) have some goofy vendetta against homosexuals. While I am not a lesbian myself, but I've known many fantastic individuals who are gay and have done wonderful things with their lives regardless of who they love. I don't believe they are going to hell. Hell, I don't really believe in hell.
Okay, that went off in a completely random direction. Eh, can't help it sometimes. Back to work.
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"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."
If you consider those in Palestine 'laying down their lives' as fanatics and she aspires to that, I think she defines herself as fanatic.
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quote:I find it terrifying when people in [online] communities decide that it is necessary to look down on other people and say that they're wrong. I find it distressing that this close minded attitude is the mainstay of many [communities], even the ones that profess tolerance and acceptance. There are always things that [posters] are unwilling to accept, and I find this hypocritical.
People are people. Apparently.
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I find it terrifying when we look at people who are clearly doing wrong and profess toleration and acceptance.
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I was bothered by the chants of 'This means war! This means war!' While as seen in the Hymm 'Onward Christian Soldiers' these theme of 'war' are metaphorical. Yet, encouraging this type of rhetoric amoung young people who are so psychologically and emotionally involved can lead to those individuals taking these metaphors literally, and then Christianity become radical Islam.
There is a recent controversy over things said by the Pope, yet everything he said is true when applied to a very radical fanatical and vocal aspect of Islam.
Islam has openly declared war on Christianity, and sworn that we will either convert to Islam or we will die. One of the very Islamic leaders who has supported violence against Christianity, claimed that the Pope as good as invoked the Crusades. Yet how can we be accused of declaring war on someone who has repeatedly made declarations of war against us?
My point is, that it is one thing to get these kids enthusiastic for God and Jesus, but when they turn the 'war-like' attitude against non-Christians or those they don't believe are appropraitely Christian, then we run the risk of creating the equivalent of radical warring Islamic fundamentalist.
When they become so enthusiastic and so whipped into a hysterical frenzy that they lose all prespective, then they become dangerous criminal and not soldiers for God.
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What I found most disturbing about the trailer was that it presented one small group as being representative of all evangelicals. I think that this is far from true.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: ]People are people. Apparently.
I'm confused. Is this directed at me? If so, how was I looking down on other people? Maybe I need to make myself clearer. I disagree with many organized religions, I don't look down on them. Maybe I look down on fanatics, I'd be willing to admit that. But with all the flaws that I have, I find it hard to look down on too many people.
"When I look down I just miss all the good stuff, when I look up I just trip over things." -Ani Difranco
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quote: Mullet boy, though, was very intelligent for his age. The kids they showed speaking certainly were.
His ability to speak clearly shows intelligence, but I do not think he's old enough to have really formulated complex thoughts on those issues beyond how he's been trained to think about it. In other words, I would be shocked if he was doing anything more than parroting back what he's been taught.
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In which some parents advocated "looking at people who are clearly doing wrong" (i.e., misbehaving children) and professed toleration and acceptance.
Of course, this necessitates separation of the actor and the action. You can accept your child while not accepting her behavior. You can fight a political viewpoint while defending the right of others to express that viewpoint. You can support the office of the Presidency, while seeking a particular President's impeachment. Etc.
I think someone famous propounded ideas like these, by preaching forgiveness, accepting the adoration of sinners, embracing apostate sects as 'neighbors,' loving one's enemies, and so forth.... Oh yeah. It was Jesus.
(And that's assuming you can always be sure what "clearly doing wrong" is.)
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BTW, I have been meaning to mention John, that I have truly enjoyed your posts esp. nature of science, which I hope to get into with you someday when I am feeling longwinded.
Fleshing out 'clearly doing wrong' might wind up the same conversation anyway!
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The desire to be part of something bigger becomes a problem when we define that "something bigger" as something smaller than it is in order to belong to something that excludes other people.
People only want to belong to exclusive clubs. We don't feel the value of being right unless someone else is wrong. It is what makes us feel special. We define ourselves by who we are not. That means there has to be a "them" so we know what "us" means. It is very human.
It is easy to use this desire to whip people into a frenzy - and then you can do anything you want to with them.
And don't for a minute think that this is only a religious phenomenon. Family, nations, races. Good heavens, people riot, set fires, commit vandalism and violence on each other over sporting events.Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Its certainly possible to use scriptures to advocate armed defence of Christianity, especially if you use the Old Testament alot, and sprinkle them with some New Testament out of context quotes.
Katherina explained quite well that many Christians advocate being soldiers fighting against evil, but in a very non violent way.
Mormons talk about a battle in heaven where 1/3rd of God's children refused the opportunity to come to earth and become more like him. But its generally accepted that this battle was a battle of ideas fought through debate and conversation.
I personally do not like it when people try to dismiss the miraculous as having no place in Christianity, but I am VERY much against it being taken to extreme and boardering on mysticism.
I had a friend who was told that if you are saved you ought to be able to speak in tongues whenever you so desired, the thought made us both ill. Some early Mormons carried the idea of "shaking" and tried to plug it into Mormonism, it had to be strictly supressed.
I feel particularly aversive towards being "Posessed by the holy spirit" Why in the world would the spirit possess you and cause you to convulse on the floor and babble incoherently? How is anyone edified by that? How do people miss the warnings in the New Testament that decry these things as "Not of God."
Jonathan Spence wrote a VERY good book called, "God's Chinese Son." You will find eery similarities between his "Chinese brand of Christianity" mixed with Chinese folk lore, and "The Jesus Camp."
Also: I agree mullets can universally be made fun of, and with extreme prejudice Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Some early Mormons carried the idea of "shaking" and tried to plug it into Mormonism, it had to be strictly supressed.
It was NOT suppressed. It fell out of favor about the same time that the Pentacostals appeared, but it was not "suppressed." Joseph Smith, Brigham Young - all sorts of early church leaders happily participated in it. It was a spiritual gift that was welcomed. The crowd spoke in tongues at the dedication of the Kirtland temple.
We still talk about spiritual gifts. The gift of tongues is interpreted generally as ease of learning a new language to communicate the gospel, but that is NOT the only interpretation and that has not been the interpretation all along.
I don't understand it and I have never experienced it, but I've felt the spirit when other people have talked about it and modern day prophets had it happen. I'll put it on the list of things I don't understand but cannot completely discount.
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quote:BTW, I have been meaning to mention John, that I have truly enjoyed your posts esp. nature of science, which I hope to get into with you someday
Thanks. Hope so, too.
quote:... when I am feeling longwinded.
Ouch!
quote:Fleshing out 'clearly doing wrong' might wind up the same conversation anyway!
Perhaps. Although by nature I tend to wax less verbo..., er, enthusiastic when it comes to discussion of ethics, morals, and philosophy.
Not that I don't have strong views, even closely reasoned views (on those topics) -- but that I feel little inclination to win others over. I do, however, enjoy the search for logical consistency.
To get back on topic here, the thing that disturbs me most in this film (and in fundamentalist Christianity in the US today) is the strong feeling of "if you're not with us, you're agin us."
I respect the absolutist religious principles that give rise to that, but it's a slippery slope, especially as it percolates into national government (as I believe it has to an alarming degree).
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