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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Jesus Camp (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Jesus Camp
Morbo
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"We're kinda being trained to be warriors, only in a much funner way."-- a young girl at the camp, in the ABC story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

Creepy.

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King of Men
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Well, it seems I'll have to quote myself again.

quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
I would still like to hear katherine's response to these:

quote:
quote:

It is by definition misanthropic to think that what certainly seems like a fundamental part of human nature is risible and despicable.

Why? Many religions, in fact, preach that things which appear to be fundamental parts of human nature are risible and despicable. You might even argue that one of the primary functions of any society is identifying which primary functions of human nature are going to be considered risible and despicable.
quote:
quote:
I saw the trailer. I don't think it's fanaticism. There were no blood sacrifices going on, no calls for actual violence in war. But it still gets called "fanaticism - creepy and narrow regardless of the reason."

What I've learned from this thread is that there are still groups that it is considered okay to mock.

Yes, well? A desire to mock those who are different is also a 'fundamental part of human nature'. Who are you to say that this is a bad thing?


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MightyCow
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I thinks this movie fills an important role. The kids in that camp, and most likely many other similar camps around the country, are being taught to fear, rally against, and oppose anyone who is not part of their group.

It's really only fair that the rest of us be given the same opportunity.

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katharina
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KoM: I like what Matt said.

-----

I don't like the camp in the movie, although I suspect it's for a different reason than that which is being generally decried. I don't like it because I think focusing on politics cheats religion. Every hour spent on President Bush and fake swordfighting is that much less time spent on spiritual things.

Not everything can be focused, though, so there's some wiggle room, but in general mixing politics and religion bothers me more because of the effect on religion than because of any effect on politics.

[ September 21, 2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Lissande
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quote:
...in general mixing politics and religion bothers me more because of the effect on religion than because of any effect on politics.
sums up my opinion quite nicely.
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dkw
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I just read (in an offline journal) that the woman who runs the camp featured in the movie has cancelled it for next year after the site was vandalized. She said she feared for the safety of the kids.
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Storm Saxon
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I would be interested in some elaboration on that, if anyone ever runs across it.
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dkw
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This is all I've got:

quote:
Camp out: Becky Fischer, the Pentecostal pastor featured in the documentary Jesus Camp, has decided not to continue her "Kids on Fire" summer camp for children. She made this decision after the site of her camp, an Assemblies of God property in North Dakota, was vandalized. "I have a responsibility to keep the children safe," said Fischer, who has been accused by some of brainwashing children in her campaign to recruit kids for "God's army" (AP).

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General Sax
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Since Christians are having more children, there is a measurable shift to the right every election cycle, (possibly one reason the Dem's want the gates wide open to the south)

It is good to see the Spirit so strong in so many young people.

These kids outnumber the kids produced by gay couples by twelve orders of magnitude...and those by the typical yuppie 3:1 so like it or not this is where we are going, various fundamental Christians in a larger and larger political majority.

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Juxtapose
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Do you have a source you can site for that, General Sax?

Also, how do you account for increased percentages of Atheists and Agnostics in the past few decades?

Check out the religious affiliation section.

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katharina
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quote:
Camp out: Becky Fischer, the Pentecostal pastor featured in the documentary Jesus Camp, has decided not to continue her "Kids on Fire" summer camp for children. She made this decision after the site of her camp, an Assemblies of God property in North Dakota, was vandalized. "I have a responsibility to keep the children safe," said Fischer, who has been accused by some of brainwashing children in her campaign to recruit kids for "God's army" (AP).
Wow.

[Frown] People suck. Who vandalizes a church camp?

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Raventhief
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I liked the statement "There are only 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who believe in Jesus, and those who don't."

It's always fun when someone equates me to a suicide bomber. Oh, and incidentally equates him/herself to a Klansman.

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KarlEd
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quote:
People suck. Who vandalizes a church camp?
Without more information we can't even guess. It could be some anti-Christian hate group bent on domestic terrorism, or it could be some random group of teenagers from within the Assemblies of God's own congregation, or it could be anyone in between the two extremes. The blurb doesn't even mention the type of "vandalism" or give any reason why Ms. Fischer would feel it was reason to fear for the safety of the kids.

I'm sure negative public reaction to her message and methods of indoctrination had nothing to do with her deciding not to hold camp this year.

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King of Men
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quote:
I liked the statement "There are only 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who believe in Jesus, and those who don't."
Substitute "imaginary friends", and I agree entirely.
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katharina
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It's like you have Tourette's Syndrome, except on purpose.
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KarlEd
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"There are only two kinds of imaginary friends in the world. Those who believe in Jesus, and those who don't." ??
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BlackBlade
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"There are only 2 kinds of people in the imaginary friends. Those who believe in Jesus, and those who dont."?
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Lyrhawn
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"There are only two kinds of Jesus in the world. Those who believe in imaginary friends, and those who don't."
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KarlEd
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OK, now you're all just being silly. [Razz]
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
It's like you have Tourette's Syndrome, except on purpose.

Do you feel the comment is irrelevant? Untrue? Unimportant? Inappropriate? If the latter, why didn't you whistle it? If untrue, how about an argument to show its falsity? If unimportant or irrelevant, then we have what's technically called a 'disagreement', and comparisons to mental disease are not, perhaps, entirely called for.
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BlackBlade
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Oh KOM I am POSITIVE that you would agree if somebody substituted the phrase, "imaginary friends" in for, "Jesus." It seems pointless to argue with you about what YOU have said.

Are you saying you don't believe in imaginary friends? Would you tell Calvin that he does not really believe in Hobbes' existence?

I'm sure EVERYONE agrees that you shouldn't believe IN imaginary friends, but perhaps you are stating that those who believe in God are mistaking reality for just another imaginary friend.

Not sure why you think anybody actually believes in imaginary friends that they know to be, imaginary.

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Lyrhawn
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It's funny when KoM is intentionally obtuse.
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Storm Saxon
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Attempt to disbelieve, Blackblade! Attempt to disbelieve!
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Not sure why you think anybody actually believes in imaginary friends that they know to be, imaginary.

I don't think I said anything of the sort. I'm sure Calvin really believes Hobbes is alive, too.
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katharina
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KoM, do you believe that Calvin is real? *concerned*
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King of Men
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I'm not the one who introduced C&H to the argument. Do you care to respond to the question I asked you?
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Princess Leah
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quote:
do you believe that Calvin is real?
He is. [Big Grin]

*re-lurks*

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katharina
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*amused* KoM, is Calvin YOUR imaginary friend?
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King of Men
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Ah, I see you don't. I won't respond further to your trolling, then. Have a nice day.
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crescentsss
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quote:
Originally posted by Raventhief:
I liked the statement "There are only 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who believe in Jesus, and those who don't."

Reminds me of some president of some country who once said something to the effect of "you're either on my side or the terrorists' side"
hmmm

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Raventhief
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http://www.thegodmovie.com/clip-TheGap.php

This was the link at the bottom when I was reading this thread. Well done, Google.

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KarlEd
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Kinda sucky movie, but really good interviews in the extras on the DVD.
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signal
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It's posted on google video now. No idea how long it will stay there.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8877708936425212842

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jlt
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One word reaction: wow.

More words reaction: Wow. That's a little scary. As for me, I really think that what you believe is up to you and you should be free to practice your beliefs as long as that doesn't mean imposing them on others. Many people came to America for religious tolerance, now we're getting rid of that? I have nothing against Christians or really any other religious group but I hate it when people force their belies on me. Some of those scenes seem like cult gatherings. Are we suggesting that children become suicide bombers?

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Dagonee
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quote:
Many people came to America for religious tolerance, now we're getting rid of that?
No, we're not.

quote:
Are we suggesting that children become suicide bombers?
No, we're not.
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Mucus
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Not enough time to watch the whole thing...but working through it.

quote:
No microphone problems in Jesus's name
Got to this part so far, where they're praying over the Powerpoint presentations because the devil might affect them.
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TomDavidson
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Having attended a number of Powerpoint presentations, I find that completely credible.
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Euripides
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*is tempted to make a joke about Keynote, but realises this will reduce his credibility in future Mac-PC debates, so refrains*
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Samprimary
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SATAN, OUT OF MY POWERPOINT PRESENTATION.

BY THE GRACE OF GOD, THE DARK LORD IS PURGED FROM OUR SOUND SYSTEM.

LUCIFER, THEE SHALT NOT CAUSE ANY SCRATCH DISK ERRORS IN XP in jesus name i pray

lumshaddadwalla doowedjoghuyyp lollololopopofogoggoggy hoodowewewewnnenedomodallawala

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Earendil18
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I'm keeping this:
lumshaddadwalla doowedjoghuyyp lollololopopofogoggoggy hoodowewewewnnenedomodallawala

*added*

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Adam_S
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I wrote this review for another forum about a month ago:

Jesus Camp - ****

"I don't think kids can choose anything"
"I think democracy is the greatest system in the world... but it means you have to give equal freedom to everyone, and in the end that is going to destroy us."

from the lady (Becky Sharpe) who runs the camp as heard in the documentary. The first quote refers to why she prefers indoctrination to letting kids choose, the second is her response to the idea that what makes America great is it's democracy and principles such as the separation of church and state.

Jesus Camp is about a small, extremist evangelical branch of Protestant Christianity. The whole world is their enemy, and they want to convert us all. Ideally they'd like to impose their principals by pressuring the government out of proportion to the size of their sect. This is nothing at all like regular evangelicals behave or think. it is not remotely representative of them as a group, but it's a pretty accurate portrayal of the most extreme right wing of evangelicals.

All the adults lacked credibility, in my estimation, from Ted Haggard's slimy put downs of the earnest Levi (though he did challenge the kid to think, because of it), to Becky Sharpe and her sad screed against Harry Potter (a series with quite Christian themes, heroes, and iconography), to the bald guy taping kids mouths shut (so they can only express what is written on the tape, ahh sweet conformity. [Roll Eyes] )

But perhaps the worst moment comes as the credits are rolling, when the little girl and Levi walk up to a trio of elderly black men sitting in a park and asks them where they're going after they die. When they reply heaven and she pushes them to repeat it. then she walks away unsure what to do when encountering an affirmative answer, but concludes that they were 'probably Muslim' The next bit in the credits shows her handing out leaflets to passers by, and as a group of white tourists presses past her, she shrugs and says, 'they're probably Christian and we just don't know it." It's a moment completely created by editing, but it is at least as disturbing as anything else in the movie, to me.

A terrific examination of the powers of community and culture--people need and crave both, and one of the best aspects of the film is seeing how people willingly fit themselves into both. The stories they tell each other about themselves, to define who they are as a group, also illustrates one of the most powerful ways communities are shaped and how malleable the perception of truth can be. What is clearly true for one community could be just as clearly false for another. And I think in the eyes of most evangelical christians, or non-evangelical christians what the people behind the Jesus camp promote has only elements of truth that have been twisted to serve the purposes of the extremists sponsoring the community. Jesus Camp is exactly what Al Queda does. And that is why it is just so disturbing.

Adam

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
SATAN, OUT OF MY POWERPOINT PRESENTATION.

BY THE GRACE OF GOD, THE DARK LORD IS PURGED FROM OUR SOUND SYSTEM.

LUCIFER, THEE SHALT NOT CAUSE ANY SCRATCH DISK ERRORS IN XP in jesus name i pray

lumshaddadwalla doowedjoghuyyp lollololopopofogoggoggy hoodowewewewnnenedomodallawala

Your post while not as wrong as what they do at Jesus Camp is just another brand of wrong, and it was not funny.
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MrSquicky
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Errr...could you explain why, BB? That didn't seem inappropriate to me and I did grin a bit. I mean, I get it if it isn't your type of humor, but it doesn't seem blatantly wrong to me.
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Amanecer
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I agree with Squicky, it made me smile. I find the idea of praying about a powerpoint presentation to be incredibly silly. I imagine you would have no problem making a joke about something you thought was absurd.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
Errr...could you explain why, BB? That didn't seem inappropriate to me and I did grin a bit. I mean, I get it if it isn't your type of humor, but it doesn't seem blatantly wrong to me.

Having actually been in the presence of people who speak in tongues (not my own religion) I find the action at best foolish and at worst evil.

But having said that, I find making fun of other people for sincerely believing anything extremely disrespectful, and not humorous.

I prefer humor that uplifts or even enlightens, and I have been known to laugh at stereotypes, but in this instance I felt the humor was in an attempt to belittle and I didn't like it.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
I imagine you would have no problem making a joke about something you thought was absurd.

Then I am glad your imagination does not dictate reality.
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Belle
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quote:
Having attended a number of Powerpoint presentations, I find that completely credible.
So true. If only we could blame Satan for some of the PowerPoint presentations I've sat through.

People, people - just because you CAN add fancy fonts, graphics, and animation to the text in your slides, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

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kmbboots
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Becky Sharpe? Seriously? That is hilarious.
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Amanecer
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quote:
Then I am glad your imagination does not dictate reality.
This just really rubbed me the wrong way. I've frequently seen you make jokes on this board. I think when looking at the joke in question, it's important to remember that the three previous posts were gently laughing about the same thing and that it was not directed at anybody on Hatrack.

If a similar joke had been made about the Harry Potter Hotline, I have trouble believing that you would be so abrasive about it, even if it was a bit belittling. But because the subject was religion, it's now wrong? Can nothing regarding religion ever be funny for fear of offending of somebody? That's an awfully large subject area.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote:
Then I am glad your imagination does not dictate reality.
This just really rubbed me the wrong way. I've frequently seen you make jokes on this board. I think when looking at the joke in question, it's important to remember that the three previous posts were gently laughing about the same thing and that it was not directed at anybody on Hatrack.

If a similar joke had been made about the Harry Potter Hotline, I have trouble believing that you would be so abrasive about it, even if it was a bit belittling. But because the subject was religion, it's now wrong? Can nothing regarding religion ever be funny for fear of offending of somebody? That's an awfully large subject area.

Far from me to rub you the wrong way for the sake of doing so. Religion has plenty of material worth joking about. You are mistaken if you thought I felt religion was a sort of "no man's land" for humor.

I am not saying that that genre of humor is wrong across the board, I thought that PARTICULAR instance was mean spirited. But hey that's a weakness with internet communication, we have to use graemlins to clue others into our tone of voice.

I have no particularly ill feelings for Samprimary either now or in the past. I am going into dangerous territory now explaining the specifics of my displeasure.

I felt the post was moderately silly (but even then I felt it was wrong to laugh) but when he broke into tongues it passed a threshold for me into "mean" territory.

As down as I look on speaking in meaningless tongues and altered voices the people who engage in the activity or may even witness it believe a very real communique is being given.

Even those who exorcise "demons" out of people or EVEN appliances believe that they are purifying an object of evil influences.

There's a difference between presenting a scenario where religion plays a humorous dynamic, "A Mormon and a Muslim find themselves in a situation where the only food is bacon and the only drink is coffee, what happens?"

I saw Samprimary's post as similar to morons that I hear in Utah try to make fun of Muslims by imitating how Arabic sounds to their ears.

But we already had a thread on Rosie O'Donnell's little Chinese quip.

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