quote:Originally posted by ElJay: And honestly I think there is a lot of conditioning involved in the decision for those who do, but I can't prove that anymore than you can prove it's part of life.
What kind of proof would you need to agree that it’s part of life? If there were no instinct to pass on genes, then what do you think “sexual attraction” is based on? Pleasure? Then pleasure is also the base for eating, even more obviously so. (We actually feel sick if we don’t eat). And the fact that some of the humans don’t “feel” the instinct to pass on their genes can’t prove that there is no such instinct, while “some of us” do feel it.
quote:And the fact that some of the humans don’t “feel” the instinct to pass on their genes can’t prove that there is no such instinct, while “some of us” do feel it
Well, sure. Which is why I said that "I can't prove that" anymore than you can prove the reverse. So to ask me what kind of proof I need is kinda silly. I can't think of anyway you could prove it, because I don't think it can be proven.
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You can receive pleasure from carrying out your conditioning as well, or feel ill from failing to do so, so I don't think that necessarily proves anything.
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Also I have EVERY intention of going to China one day and adopting a sweet little Chinese girl. This is purely an act of compasion on my part, the fact little chinese girls are the cutest looking the world is secondary. I hate the fact that they are tossed away by their families because they wan't sons, and these girls have no hope of a better future. If I can help one of them at least get a fair chance, even if it does not pan out, I think my existance will have more meaning.
Having said that, I still want to see just what kinda of human beings I myself can craft with my genes as well as my personality.
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I beg to differ, BB. Hatrack babies are the cutest in the world, it's a scientific fact.
That said, I think that it's nice to pass on your genes-- but, having two children, I think there are more important things to pass on, like the importance of loving families and kindness to others and wisdom and great literature and...
If I was not able to have children, I would very much hope to adopt. Loving children is in my genes, and was nurtured in me through my upbringing. I am glad I am able to have children, but were there no hope of that, I would still want to rear children.
This way is much cheaper for us, though. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: You can receive pleasure from carrying out your conditioning as well, or feel ill from failing to do so, so I don't think that necessarily proves anything.
So, do you agree that "passing on genes" is a (essential) part of the life of any species, or not?
quote:Originally posted by rivka: *is apparently invisible today*
Nah, I just got my message 99% composed immediately after Scott had posted, got caught up with work, and didn't get a chance to type the last three words and click "Add Reply" for about an hour.
Or basically, what Olivet said.
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quote:Given all of that, adoption makes more sense to me.
That makes sense to me, too, but this isn't an area where I decide things logically.
Which is fine. It is for me, but that may be because I don't feel any particular drive, either biologically or culturally induced, to have kids.
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A motivation just occurred to me, though it won't apply to everyone. Most people are not very bright; to the extent that intelligence is genetic (and I think it's generally agreed that there is a strong hereditary factor) it follows that most people's children are not very bright. Plainly, raising a bright child is more fun than raising a dull one. Any child of mine will, probabilistically speaking, be a lot smarter than one selected from a random sample. (And also, you have to consider that the best and the brightest may well be underrepresented among the people who put children up for adoption, so the sample is actually a bit worse than random.) A child of mine, then, is a better bet for my personal satisfaction.
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I feel excited by the idea of having my own child. As a woman, I think it's amazing that I have the ability to create life inside of me. I would like to have that experience. I also think it would be interesting to watch a child grow and see at least some of the genetic traits of myself and future mate.
That said, I think that raising adopted children is a more meaningful endeavor than raising your own kids. Raising kids you made is simply fulfilling your duty. Raising somebody else's kid is going above and beyond. And going beyond that, is raising kids that somebody else started raising (most likely poorly) and then stopped. I think that with each additional layer of meaning it requires a stronger person to rise to the challenge. One day I would like to be the kind of person that is emotionally strong enough to adopt older children that have been abandoned to the state foster care system.
I am single, young, and have no money so children are not in my immediate future. At this point in time, although this could quite likely change, I love the idea of working my way up. I could start with my own child and learn about raising kids. If that goes well and I feel I could handle more, I would look into adoption.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: *is apparently invisible today*
Nah, I just got my message 99% composed immediately after Scott had posted, got caught up with work, and didn't get a chance to type the last three words and click "Add Reply" for about an hour.
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King of Men- if you were stupid, would you want to raise a baby smarter than you? Or would you want to raise a super genius baby?
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: A child of mine, then, is a better bet for my personal satisfaction.
Thankfully, whether by nature or nurture, any child of yours is likely to be inexcusably arrogant as well. I say "thankfully," because I fully expect the exact same glee my parents get when they see me have to deal with stuff my kids do that is similar to what they had to deal with from me.
Noem and Ic, making me laugh like that at work is not ok! Do you know how much my ribs hurt from stifling it?! Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:A motivation just occurred to me, though it won't apply to everyone. Most people are not very bright; to the extent that intelligence is genetic (and I think it's generally agreed that there is a strong hereditary factor) it follows that most people's children are not very bright. Plainly, raising a bright child is more fun than raising a dull one. Any child of mine will, probabilistically speaking, be a lot smarter than one selected from a random sample. (And also, you have to consider that the best and the brightest may well be underrepresented among the people who put children up for adoption, so the sample is actually a bit worse than random.) A child of mine, then, is a better bet for my personal satisfaction.
I hate to rain on your parade, but it's not true that intelligent people will have intelligent children. Yes, there is a genetic component with intelligence, but there's also a regression to the mean involved in genetics. For example, my father was a world-famous cardiologist and medical researcher (before he ruined his career with drugs and alcohol). And while I was intelligent enough to get a scholarship to a good college, I have very little aptitude for science. Genetics is such a roll of the dice that nothing is certain. Also, genetics doesn't protect against injuries or infections or diseases that can reduce your child's intelligence.
I'm guessing that you have very little experience with children - the bright ones give just as much trouble, if not more, than the "dull" ones. Also, I can't imagine how you came to the conclusion that most people who give their children up for adoption aren't bright. There's a difference between stupidity and poor judgment. I think that people who give their children up have made a mistake and are brave and smart enough to realize that they aren't in a position to raise their child.
I wanted to have a biological child for reasons already stated - maternal instinct and the desire to create a person with my husband. However, we were also ready to adopt if we couldn't conceive. We are still planning on adopting in the future and I'm sure we'll love all of our children equally.
For me, there's a religious consideration. We believe that the command to be fruitful and multiply means having at least one child of each sex.
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: That said, I think that raising adopted children is a more meaningful endeavor than raising your own kids. Raising kids you made is simply fulfilling your duty. Raising somebody else's kid is going above and beyond. And going beyond that, is raising kids that somebody else started raising (most likely poorly) and then stopped.
I disagree with this. To me, choosing to have children and raise them with love is just as meaningful as choosing to adopt someone else's child and raise them with love.
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quote:For me, there's a religious consideration. We believe that the command to be fruitful and multiply means having at least one child of each sex.
This is interesting. Would your religion look down on (sorry couldn't think of a better phrase at the moment) people who couldn't concieve?
(p.s. If that sounds like an attack I'm terribly sorry, it is a legitimate question that I couldn't think of how to phrase without using a bit of inflammatory language... )
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quote:For me, there's a religious consideration. We believe that the command to be fruitful and multiply means having at least one child of each sex.
My sister and her husband believe something similar, only it's two children, not necessarily one of each.
What happens, then, if you end up having all girls or all boys? (And, like stacey, this is honest curiousity, not any attempt at being inflammatory.)
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: King of Men- if you were stupid, would you want to raise a baby smarter than you? Or would you want to raise a super genius baby?
I have no idea, and don't see why the question is interesting.
quote:I hate to rain on your parade, but it's not true that intelligent people will have intelligent children. Yes, there is a genetic component with intelligence, but there's also a regression to the mean involved in genetics.
Clearly there is no guarantee, nor did my post suggest one. But there's such a thing as improving the odds.
quote:I'm guessing that you have very little experience with children - the bright ones give just as much trouble, if not more, than the "dull" ones.
You are looking at the wrong end; obviously all children are troublesome. I'm looking at the good end, the experiences you have with your child. Let's see you teach someone with an IQ of 90 to enjoy chess.
quote:Thankfully, whether by nature or nurture, any child of yours is likely to be inexcusably arrogant as well. I say "thankfully," because I fully expect the exact same glee my parents get when they see me have to deal with stuff my kids do that is similar to what they had to deal with from me.
I expect my children's arrogance to be exceeded only by their reasons for arrogance, just like my own.
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There is something to the idea of wanting to make a child with the person you adore, at least for me. I have already produced my "quota" and then some, if the quota is two children, in my first marriage. But I confess that I often find myself dreamily imagining the amazing child that John and I could make. "Could." Who knows what the genetic dice would do? Who knows what effect our ages would have? And probably we won't. But the wishful thinking is there, I admit it.
Is there a googly-eyes icon? A dreamy schoolgirl one? Well, just imagine it.
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My question about having a kid smarter than yourself was looking at whether or not you want a child who is like you or trying to optimize your child.
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: My question about having a kid smarter than yourself was looking at whether or not you want a child who is like you or trying to optimize your child.
I don't think the situations are symmetrical. I have a low tolerance for the company of stupid people, hence I would enjoy raising a smart child more. If I were stupid, I don't think I would necessarily have a low tolerance for the company of smart people; a smart child might still be a better bet, to the extent that the child was able to tolerate my company. It's not a question of similarity, but of compatibility.
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stacey and quidscribis - you can fulfill your obligation by adopting (adopted children must be converted). In my experience, there is a stigma about infertility in certain Jewish communities. It's something that I'm still coming to terms with. I believe that infertility (in either spouse) is grounds for divorce, but rivka or Tante Shvester would know better than I. And y'all couldn't have been more respectful.
KoM, you can get just as much joy teaching a learning disabled child to read as you can teaching a bright child to play chess. Happy and meaningful experiences with your children don't have to involve achievement. You don't love your children because they have qualities and abilities you value - you love them unconditionally.
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If it's any consolation, Mrs. M, there's a stigma about infertility in many communities, including the LDS one. Not everywhere, and it has improved, but it is there. Okay, not so much a consolation as a general commiseration. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mrs.M, are you allowed to adopt even if you can concieve? (i.e. you can have your own biological children but you choose to adopt instead) or is adoption just a last resort?
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quote:stacey and quidscribis - you can fulfill your obligation by adopting (adopted children must be converted).
This is generally not accepted to be true. Although adoption is absolutely seen as a Very Good Thing, it is entirely separate from the commandment of having children. However, like any commandment, if you are constrained by circumstances beyond your control, you are not held to blame.
quote: In my experience, there is a stigma about infertility in certain Jewish communities.
This is unfortunately true. Although it is something that is spoken out against by those in authority. The more acceptable attitude of pity is probably not a whole lot easier for those dealing with infertility.
quote: I believe that infertility (in either spouse) is grounds for divorce, but rivka or Tante Shvester would know better than I.
Correct. However, unlike some grounds for divorce (such as infidelity by the wife), it is an optional choice. I know a great many Jewish couples who stayed married for life, who had no children. Among the more famous were Sara Schneirer (mother of the Bais Yaakov movement) and her husband, the last Lubavitcher Rebbe and his wife, and Nechama Leibowitz and her husband.
Someone who never marries is also unable to fulfil the commandment. Which, BTW, only devolves upon men, not women.
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quote:However, unlike some grounds for divorce (such as infidelity by the wife)
Sorry to drift from the actual topic but this sentence just jumped out at me. Is infidelity by the husband not grounds for divorce?
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Just wanted to add a relevant quote from my last link.
quote:We were talking about rebbes and the faith people have in them when Nechama remembered the following story:
"One day when I was in the University library's reading room, a young married Yemenite woman, who was an ex-student of mine, came over to me:
I must ask your advice.
What is it?
My husband and I are married nearly ten years and we have no children. We don't know if we should get divorced and each try to have a family with another spouse. What do you say, Nechama?
The story goes on for a bit, and concludes:
quote:I remember my thoughts as I drove home after hearing that story. Neither Nechama nor the Rebbe ever had children. They both know the pain of the childless, and they both know the power of love. Their deep-seated love has blessed them both with thousands of "children" throughout the Jewish world.
quote:However, unlike some grounds for divorce (such as infidelity by the wife)
Sorry to drift from the actual topic but this sentence just jumped out at me. Is infidelity by the husband not grounds for divorce?
Since biblically the husband could have multiple wives, no. (Which is not to say it might not cause a divorce, just that it is not obligated to do so.)
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So in Jewish couples where one of them is infertile but they decide not to get divorved, are they allowed to adopt? (Maybe allowed isn't the right word.) Would it be acceptable? Would they be thought of differently in the jewish community if they adopted instead of remaining childless?
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: stacey and quidscribis - you can fulfill your obligation by adopting (adopted children must be converted). In my experience, there is a stigma about infertility in certain Jewish communities. It's something that I'm still coming to terms with. I believe that infertility (in either spouse) is grounds for divorce, but rivka or Tante Shvester would know better than I.
Mrs.M IS Jewish, Stacey
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: So in Jewish couples where one of them is infertile but they decide not to get divorved, are they allowed to adopt? (Maybe allowed isn't the right word.) Would it be acceptable? Would they be thought of differently in the jewish community if they adopted instead of remaining childless?
I know Jewish couples who have biological children and adopt, and quite a number who have adopted because they cannot have biological children. As I said above, adoption is seen as a wonderful thing -- a big chesed (kindness). While not every Jewish infertile couple adopts, many do.
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Whoa... maybe I missed something... Is it religiously wrong in some belief sets to adopt? If so - can someone fill me in on the why?
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I've never felt the drive to be a mother at all. I always assumed that if I ever did want to have a family, I'd adopt. I just don't think it's important for me to pass on my genes. I have really crummy genes, in fact. I have some kind of weird-ass immune system problem, and my family is absolutely riddled with alcoholism, heart disease, and mentall illness. The world does NOT need more Libbies. I managed to escape relatively healthy and normal, but I couldn't guarantee that to any of my genetic offspring.
However, there are lots of great kids out here waiting for good families. If I wanted the responsibility of caring for a family, I'd want to provide a good home for one (or more?) of those children. I don't see it as giving up my "chance" as passing on my genes (as if you only get one?), but rather as giving those children a chance at a good life.
Bummer that I don't want any kids anyway, though, huh?
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quote:KoM, you can get just as much joy teaching a learning disabled child to read as you can teaching a bright child to play chess. Happy and meaningful experiences with your children don't have to involve achievement. You don't love your children because they have qualities and abilities you value - you love them unconditionally.
Love, unfortunately, does not preculde being annoyed at the loved one on occasion. Plainly, the fewer those occasions, the better. I believe I mentioned my impatience with slow people.
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So much claimed intelligence and you still can't figure out basic skills like patience and empathy? I've met plenty of adults without degrees who can atleast manage that.
Sorry, I just find the idea of intelligence as a precursor to love to be absolutely ridiculous and contrary to the very meaning of love.
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I'm not worried about adoption for a very simple reason. A few years ago I met my cousin Joe for the first time. He's the adopted son of an adopted son - nothing close to a blood relation - and we were finishing each other's sentences within minutes. We could tell we were family even if there wasn't a shared gene between us.
My mom was adopted by her stepdad. Same thing. They've always been family. The fact that he was originally her stepdad rarely comes up.
On a side note, I hear a lot of people get bent out of shape about telling kids they're adopted. They get all worried about the kid wanting to find their birth parents and like them better or that people will treat the kid different if they know. I've known a buddy of mine was adopted for about three years, and I only asked him about his birth family a few months back. It's just never come up before.
I don't see what all the hooplah is about, but then I plan on adopting in about 15 years. It's pretty liberating to know I don't have to plan my family around the lifespan of my reproductive organs. I can wait until I'm ready.
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Biology does very good things to most people, Katharina. Hopefully, he's one of them. It will make him mushy and goofy and he'll be buying Power Puff Girls sneakers for his imperious four-year-old daughter with a loopy grin on his face, and thanking her for the privilege.
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