posted
OK, so I'm working on a story where the "typical" plot type (Hero vs villain) doesn't really apply. The problem I'm having is that I don't really know what plot type does apply. The genesis of my story (what made me want to write the story itself) is completely milieu-based. That is, I want to introduce a place/time/circumstance to readers, but I'm not entirely sure how to do this and keep their interest.
Hero vs Villain is definitely useful for exploring a milieu, take The Lord of the Rings, as an excellent example. However, my milieu is necessarily villainless for the most part.
There are a few other plot types I've thought of that might be useful: man vs environment or man vs himself, for instance. The first might work to some degree, but the milieu in question is (arguably) completely benign, if not downright beneficial. The second of these would work better, perhaps. But surely there are more. So, writers, tell me what other basic plots might work well to introduce and explore a unique milieu to readers.
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quote:Originally posted by Shan: Beneficial or not, you need some sort of conflict, neh?
Well, yeah. That's my problem. I have this IMO great milieu, and due to it's nature there is no villain.
For instance, let's say you want to write a story about Utopia, and not some Dystopia secretly parading as Utopia. How do you write this story about a place where there are no villains (except maybe yourself) and the environment is perfectly benign. What if you want to show this place as really a good thing and not as a cautionary tale about how too much peace leads to decadence and corruption or some such. Is conflict critical to a story? If not, what kinds of non-conflict (or low conflict) plots are there? If it is critical, then what kinds of conflict can you bring to a story set in a true Utopia. What threats could their be to an individual. (I can't go with a threat to Utopia itself - well I could, I suppose, but that's not the story I want to tell.)
I'm probably going to go with a man-vs-himself type story. I was just wondering what there is that I haven't thought of.
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posted
Hmmm. I'm not sure how to move a story without conflict. Perhaps there's an outside conflict -- y'know, the person looking in and wanting what he/she sees but not knowing how to get it? And maybe that sets the stage for snippets back to what conflict there probably was in the early stages of this haven? I'm only on cup 1 of coffee, sorry if that doesn't make much sense.
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posted
Forgive my ignorance if you will. I am not particularly well versed in the terminology.
It seems milieu is the social structure and environment, it defines the atmosphere of the story.
Consider paintings which have milieu only, some are effective. However, paintings with specific subjects are typically more interesting.
Shift the painting analogy slightly; Think, perhaps, of your milieu as the canvas the paintbrush and the frame. They are things of beauty, as much for what they are as where they will become once they are used. When your melieu comes alive it can be used to tell a compelling story.
A milieu can be interesting, but the story of a group usually has to be told through one of individual. Hopefully one you actually care about.
I don't think that any society can be without some sort of conflict. The varying degees of sentience involved in a society will always produce conflict, use the conflicts of the society to make it compelling. Although stark villians are not always necessary, it seems there should be at least a path for your protagonists to choose that will enrich thier lives, countered by one that will not.
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quote:If it is critical, then what kinds of conflict can you bring to a story set in a true Utopia.
Well, your protagonist might be truly unhappy with the utopia. If you were willing to make him the technical villain, especially if he were "defeated" by the utopia in some way, it could probably work. A spiritual journey which just led him to eventually learn to like the utopia wouldn't be as interesting, IMO.
Tom's description above reminded me of the character.
quote:Tempus: You want to know the future, Miss Lane? No one works, no one argues, there are 9,000 channels and nothing on!
Tempus: Well, this is a special pleasure, Ms. Lane. I'm Tempus. I'm from the future that you and Superman created. Lois: Me and Superman? Tempus: A world of peace. A world with no greed or crime. A world so boring you'd blow your brains out, but there are no guns.
posted
This brings up another question. Do you think Utopia is inherently boring? I don't. I can conceive of many very interesting things about a theoretical Utopia and don't think life requires disease, crime, etc. to be exciting.
On the other hand, if someone only wants to read about crime, betrayal, and political intrigue, this definitely isn't the story for them. A thriller it ain't, but I don't think it has to be in order to not be boring.
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posted
The conflict, for me, is obvious in your problem.
A Utopia, perfect? Impossible. Well, impossible to many people. So have the conflict in the mind of a sceptic either visiting or entering the Utopia.
Create a Utopia disguised as a Dystopia.
Joe, the reporter from WORLD WIDE NEWS is searching for the monster he knows is hiding under the glitter and goodness. He can't believe it and must be convinced.
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A there-and-back-again kind of approach could work (like Gulliver). You know, the stranger in a strange land, where the interesting thing is the discovery process, the comparison between the world you are attempting to portray and the world we all know as the "real world".
The most fascinating characters are usually the most flawed. In this case, your main character may well be your society. This could be problematic for you. It just makes your job harder, not impossible, imo. But it won't be easy, for sure.
Utopias will have costs. The costs may very well be worth it, but they might give your "character" the character it needs to have to be truly fascinating.
posted
Well, a Utopia story was just an example of type, to kind of illustrate my problem. My story isn't really conducive to the "skeptical reporter" concept.
The only story I can think of that is really similar to mine would be, perhaps, Dante's Inferno, but I'm not writing about Hell. I make the comparison because this particular story is really about the milieu (as is Inferno), and in Inferno, the milieu just is. It's not a question of judging the goodness or badness or efficiency of it, really, since you can complain about Hell all you want but it isn't going to change Hell (in the traditional sense of "Hell".) I'm just trying to come up with something more exciting than Virgil giving a tour of Hell (or heaven, for that matter).
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posted
Sharpie, can I call you later tonight maybe? You know more about this than you may think since I talked to you about this story on your last visit. (I hate to be so cryptic, but if I spill it all on Hatrack I know I won't feel as invested in actually writing it out.)
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And I totally grok that. I am always hesitant to talk about the story until I get to a certain point, because I'm afraid I'll use up the energy.
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Dan has a point. Depending on what your Utopia looks like, there would be plenty of room for people to view it as a Dystopia.
however, I wouldn't go for a perfect world that someone thinks is bad "underneath" but a world that appears dystopian but is actually utopian underneath. If you were very, very careful you could actually create a world which has a dystopian appearance but actually is utopian. I imagine it would be very tough, though.
Your character could therefore play a number of roles. He could be the first to realise that they have reached Utopia... only the Utopia doesn't look a thing like everyone expected it too.
Or more like Dan said, he could be the last and thus at odds with the rest of society.
Personally I like the first of these scenarios. It's kinda new and to me actually makes the idea of a Utopia feasible.
EDIT #2: Oh! Good idea (I know, kind of irrelevent) but what if the only way to keep it utopian was to keep the populace believing they were living in a dystopian world.
Heeheheehe
EDIT: So it's not a utopia/dystopia story?
Anyway, it was a cool idea.
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posted
Get OSC's book Characters & Viewpoint (I think it is), which speaks of 4 story types:
Milieu Idea Character Event
You can blend them to some degree.
A milieu story begins when someone enters this new world and ends either when he leaves or when he decides to stay.
LotR is only partly milieu; it's also Event (Sauron's resurgence).
A purer milieu story is The Architect of Sleep: a man goes to a parallel earth in which raccoons have evolved to humanlike size and intelligence, and homo habilis didn't.
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quote:Get OSC's book Characters & Viewpoint (I think it is), which speaks of 4 story types:
I have that. Unfortunately it's in a box in the attic that I haven't unpacked from the move (um, two years ago. )
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posted
suggestions: 1) All stories thrive on conflict of some sort, otherwise they tend to be essays rather than stories.
2) Have the conflict be internal with the struggle of "how can an imperfect man survive in a perfect world?" like the lois and clark example: is the world at fault, or is it imperfect man's fault that he wants to kill himself?
3) Have the conflict be external to the Utopia. i.e. America is a Utopia, but the rest of the world isnt, perhaps there are wars, perhaps there are enemy spies trying to undermine the utopia and point out its flaws, or develop them from nothing. perhaps the character is a missionary of this utopia trying to convince a skeptical world that it's not a sham...
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posted
The oldest boxes I had in my house that hadn't been unpacked were from 1998 or so; I unpacked them this past Saturday, and it was like an archaeological dig of my life. I had much older boxes stored at my parents' house, but they were destroyed in a fire.
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posted
Pack rattiness is ingrained in my genetic code, I think. I'm undergoing self-therapy to ameliorate the effects, but with limited and arguable success.
I appreciate all the comments, but people are still suggesting threats to the Utopia, which leads me to believe I'm either being unclear or people aren't reading my posts closely enough. The milieu I'm writing in is unassailable. By it's nature there can be no threat either from within or without (at least insofar as this particular story goes) even to the degree that if I find some I'm going to have to find a way to eliminate them. I understand this severely limits my options in terms of sources of literary conflict, which is why I was posting. Rest assured, I do know the need for conflict or at least tension of some sort. I was just hoping for some brainstorming of other possible sources than "villain" or "environment", and I"m not opposed to trying something experimental. Indeed this whole project is largely experimental. Not that I'm trying to re-invent the novel, just that while I'm relatively confident this story hasn't been told, I'm also relatively confident this type of story has been told but I can't think of specific examples (other than Inferno, which isn't quite right either).
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Pack rattiness is ingrained in my genetic code, I think. I'm undergoing self-therapy to ameliorate the effects, but with limited and arguable success.
Same here. The method outlined above is one of my self-help attempts.
(I would post something more on topic, but I have no clue. Sorry!)
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posted
Karl, I think that you'd have to give me more to go on before I could try to come up with something. I can definitely understand why you're reluctant to do so, however; I've bled the energy out of stories I wanted to write by talking about them in too much detail too.
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In that event, the only thing I can think of is that your protagonist needs to be someone or something from outside -- something that doesn't belong in your utopia.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Karl, if there's no possible external conflict then from my mind I'd still suggest the internal conflict of an imperfect man trying to fit with a perfect world, or tell you that you're SOL and apparently should be writing an essay rather than a novel (at least from my current understanding of the situation)
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posted
I don't see how you could do a Utopia without an outsider being shown around, experiencing and having explained to them all the details that seperate the Utopia from the current world.
Dante was able to tour Heaven in Paradiso (though I admit its the most boring of the trilogy).
The biggest problem with a Utopia is that it is perfect, and to maintain its perfection, it is usually seen as unchanging. What is unchanging is stagnant. What is stagnant dies.
A dynamic Utopia would be one where the ability to change and grow is built in. Growth and change is usually frought with uncertainty and fear--another source of conflict.
Growth means expanding outward--where you meet interesting new people. Interesting new people equal conflict.
Star Trek was an exciting show based off of a near Utopia that is the Federation, but did so by growing that Utopia outward.
If a news article is out, is a travel-logue possible. (This is how I wrote my Utopia for a college assignment.)
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posted
OK, another example of the type of story might be if during a lab accident a man finds himself in a parallel world that is infinitely better than this one and has counterparts of all the people he knows who fit into this Utopian parallel universe with varying degrees of success. Let's say he really likes this parallel better than the one he left. He might come across people he "knows" or thinks he does, who are unhappy in varying degrees, but he likes it. Those who don't embrace the larger "society" are unable to experience it fully, so they wouldn't be very good POV characters. Can this happy-to-be-here character be a compelling or interesting POV character, or does he necessarily have to be in conflict with the world he finds himself in?
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posted
Could there be one person, somewhere, whom the Utopia has failed? One anomoly who just floats through the world in an unnacountably poor way?
Or similarily, could there be one person who, for no apparant reason, disrupts the Utopia? Accidents might happen around him/her that are supposed to be impossible under the working system.
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posted
Karl, I think as long as there is conflict somewhere it can work. Now you have to be careful though, perhaps your POV character is in love with this utopian world, but others are not. If the others that are in conflict are completely unimportant to your POV character, then you're not going to draw people in much (we have to care about the conflict).
However, if it's say the POV character's alternate brother who is at odds with the Utopia we now have a conflict which doesn't directly involve the POV character, but we still care about. but by introducing this conflict the POV character can't be entirely happy either (even if the only point of conflict with him is that his brother wouldn't be happy)
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posted
I would say the biggest trap you have with having the happy-to-be-here guy as protagonist is making him unsympathetic to readers who identify with the reasons why the others are unhappy in this utopia.
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A character who's truly content, almost by definition, doesn't have a story; there's no conflict, and thus no progression. Someone who's experiencing perfect contentment doesn't have a plotline.
Your actual protagonist shouldn't experience perfect contentment throughout the novel, therefore. Your narrator can, as long as your narrator isn't actually your protagonist. You can have your narrator observe people who are not perfectly content and wonder at their behavior; your narrator can be perfectly content while describing situations that would horrify modern audiences, thus turning the reader into a protagonist of sorts at odds with the narrator's judgement. And so forth.
But a novel about someone happy who stays happy and describes his happy place isn't a novel; it's an essay.
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posted
So basically, no one wants to read about heaven? We're only interested in some form of hell?
Actually, that's hyperbole. I agree that perfect contentment is boring. What I'm driving at is does tension necessarily have to come from dissatisfaction with the milieu, or Utopia, or whatever. Can an interesting story be written where the protagonist is discovering Utopia and buying into it?
What about someone unhappy who find happiness in Utopia?
What about a story that builds tension by raising questions about the nature of a Utopia, looking for a dark underbelly or flaw but ends with the protagonist accepting the Utopia for what it is? Will readers feel betrayed that they didn't get the dirt?
What about a POV character who is simply trying to understand a bizzare and somewhat surreal place he finds himself in?
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posted
Two works that come to mind are Serenity (specifically the planet Miranda) and No Exit "hell is other people." Well, other people and Third Empire furniture.
There is no suffering without desire, there is no joy without desire. No yin without yang, to be awful. Maybe underneath atoms are those little photo-mills. The things with little fins that are dark on one side, light on the other that are "pushed" by light.
quote: a man finds himself in a parallel world that is infinitely better than this one and has counterparts of all the people he knows who fit into this Utopian parallel universe with varying degrees of success.
This could also be reminiscent of OZ, though there were villains a-plenty there. So no one he doesnt care for is there? Are they like real people but not real? I'm still trying to figure out how "the natural man" is accounted for.
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quote:What about a story that builds tension by raising questions about the nature of a Utopia, looking for a dark underbelly or flaw but ends with the protagonist accepting the Utopia for what it is?
That could work. But honestly, I'd actually come up with a different plot, and let his exploration of and reconciliation with the utopia be the backdrop for the plot.
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posted
Karl, while some of these latest ideas could work in principle, I still don't think they'd work well.
The problem as I see it is that we are generally conditioned not to really believe that perfection exists in society. (that there's always at least some amount of seedy underbelly). So, personally were I to read this story I think (from the sounds of it) that I would be offended by the lack of realism.
I don't think people want to read about heaven because: 1) everyone's idea of it is at least a bit different from everyone else's. 2) it's a utopia that we don't expect to follow the normal rules, so maybe it actually can exist in perfection...
Even assuming you could somehow create a utopia that wouldn't offend my sense of logic, then how much do you really expect page after page of "wow this is really great, and so is this" to entertain readers?
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posted
There was also a Star Trek episode about an orphaned girl who is emerging into the Q continuum, and the question is whether she will use her powers to remake her human life the way she wished it had been or go on to the next level. It was the only really interesting episode with Q that I remember.
Doesn't the MC have concerns about whether the place is "real"? Is there maybe a Brigadoon aspect where he can't stay?
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posted
What if you have a different plot, as suggested above by TomD, and the utopia saves the hero somehow?
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posted
Pooka, the MC could question the reality of this place. (But heck, many real life humans question their reality all the time.)
Brigadoon won't work. But good suggestion.
quote:I don't think people want to read about heaven because: 1) everyone's idea of it is at least a bit different from everyone else's. 2) it's a utopia that we don't expect to follow the normal rules, so maybe it actually can exist in perfection...
Really? #1 seems bizarre. I read specifically to be exposed to ideas different from my own. As for #2, I'd expect Utopia to follow different rules. If it didn't we'd have Utopia now with the rules we've got, right?
I really wish I hadn't used the word Utopia because everyone seems so locked into it now. And I fully expect some people will dislike my milieu, even if it seems Utopian to others. I may be writing for a minority (or extreme minority) audience, and I'm fine with that for this story. I just don't want it to be boring.
What basic plot outlines do you think would be available to someone writing about heaven. Do you think an interesting story could be set there? Surely there are no villains there, and surely heaven itself is unassailable and has no dark underbelly (at least in the view of those who go there). Is heaven inherently boring? Why the hell do people want to go there, then? (Pun intended) Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Plotlines about heaven often involve "soulmates". Are the counterparts you mention 1 to 1 identical counterparts? Are they like the angels, neither giving nor taking in marriage like Jesus once answered to confound a trick question? I'm not even really sure what I think heaven (and I assume you mean the afterlife- I'm cheating because you mentioned something on the Nanowrimo thead) will be like.
I started writing one once, in which the one thing my grandpa wanted to know when he died was what really happened at Mountain Meadows. But for him to observe it, he needed a "counterweight" who would anchor him during his time journey. I didn't really get far enough to determine how I wanted those rules to work. I think he would have to move relativistically slow while the other spirit moved relativistically fast. I did fall into a "babelfish" theory of how the dead communicate with each other, where you find the words inside the other person and use them. It's part of why people who aren't nice seemed "bound" in the afterlife. But yeah, none of this is stuff I would find in a sunday school text.
So in addition to romance, observing/diverting past disaster, switching bodies, preventing the imminent murder of loved ones left behind- I guess it depends on what "power" is gained by being in a different sphere. Being able to eat whatever you want and not gain an ounce? Engaging in other vices? It could be a Siddartha/Groundhog Day type story where he is questing for fulfillment, enlightenment, or self-actualization.
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posted
let me clarify my points: 1) Since everyone's idea of heaven/perfection/utopia is going to be different from everyone else's any concrete descriptions of it are going to conflict with some people's views. e.g. If my heaven is filled with ever-ripe strawberry bushes it's great for me, but just constantly taunting for the person that is allergic to strawberries, or distasteful to the person that doesn't like them.
some people think that anarchy is the perfect system, but others think strict order is best, you can't satisfy both at the same time. how does this society deal with free-thinkers who buck the norms? social delinquants (even if the only reason remaining is just random mental disorders, and not upbringing?) Does the society allow for over-indulgence? if so, how does that effect others (jealousy short supply etc) what if certain individuals aren't contributing evenly?
2) the utopia of heaven isn't expected to follow the rules (be they physical laws, logical flow etc)
e.g. I wouldn't be suprised if my heaven had those strawberry bushes, but somehow the heaven of my friend who I can see right next to me instead has endless fields of poppies, and somehow our conversations about these aspects of our realities won't be in conflict. Additionally, there would be endless supplies of whatever would be needed, people would always be comfortably fit no matter how much or how little they ate or exercised, etc...
in short I think heaven itself would be great, but would be kinda like straight joy pumped right into your brain/soul. It's an awesome experience, but not that much to talk about.
As for your story, the MC doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict with society, but there has to be important conflict that he is involved with. Perhaps he's trying to convince those who are opposed to this milieu that it's really great, and perhaps the resolution to this conflict can even be that no one reality can perfectly please everyone...
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posted
Is there some reason why it's a utopia that your protagonist could discover while he's looking around? I'm thinking LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" here...is there some dark secret that is the reason for the perfection and beauty of the place that the protagonist could discover? Then he could decide either to stay and exist in the utopia, knowing the cost, or he could be one of the ones who walks away.
I always wanted there to be a sequel...I wanted to know where the ones who walked away from Omelas went and whether they found what they were looking for. After experiencing life away from Omelas, would they begin to re-think the way they felt? Would they create another Omelas, exactly as before? Is the universe just made up of people who walk away from paradise because it's too disturbing yet they in turn create another version of paradise that has just as high a cost, just in another way?
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posted
Karl, I think the plotlines you could set in an utopia depend highly on how utopian your milieu is. Is everyone perfectly happy, no matter what? Are all physical and emotional needs met? How do people reconcile their differences?
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