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Author Topic: How big can big brother get?
lem
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Britons 'could be microchipped like dogs in a decade'.

quote:
The prospect of 'chip-citizens' - with its terrifying echoes of George Orwell's 'Big Brother' police state in the book 1984 - was raised in an official report for Britain's Information Commissioner Richard Thomas into the spread of surveillance technology.
quote:
They could be used by companies who want to keep tabs on an employee's movements or by Governments who want a foolproof way of identifying their citizens - and storing information about them.
quote:
In their Report on the Surveillance Society, the authors now warn: "The call for everyone to be implanted is now being seriously debated."
How depressing. I might have to rethink Alex Jones. [Frown]

Do any of you think that this is even a possibility for citizens in the US or Briton in the next 15 years?

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blacwolve
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I hope not. I really don't think most people would be ok with it. I hope.
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Storm Saxon
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*Puts picture of abducted waif/puppy/baby seal on the television*

Look, if we had just been tracking the poor little thing/person who abducted her, we could have saved her wee, wittle life.

I mean, you're not for killing waifs/puppies/baby seals, are you?

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aspectre
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Most air travellers would probably accept such tagging if it meant that they could go through security faster.
Heck, there are already people who have had tags implanted merely to bypass the line into a popular nightclub, and to have food&drinks automaticly billed to their bar tab without ever having to pull out cash or a credit card.

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pH
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Oh, the Southern Baptists will have a field day with this...

THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US, PEOPLE.

But seriously, um. Yeah, this idea scares the crap out of me.

-pH

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Megan
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I would move to another country, fast, if this were ever implemented. I would hope that it would never even be seriously considered here, but given how complacent the population as a whole has been about giving up civil liberties so far...
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Dan_raven
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Of course I think this is a good idea. Anything our great leaders, especially Uncle Cheney, Big Brother Rumsfield, or Good Ol' President Bush think is best for us folks is perfectly all right with me.

I am certainly in no way helping those who would harm our country. No need to label me an Enemy Combatant. No need for me to go water-boarding. No need for me to disappear..er..I mean to earn an all expense paid vacation maligned by the evil press as Extrodinary Rendition.

And to all the wonderful people at the NSA who are listening in, all is good. Peace through War, brothers, Peace through War.

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lem
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Sorry Dan_raven, you've already been tagged..err...I mean your thoughts on this administration are already known. [No No]
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Will B
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Has GWB really endorsed this? I find it hard to believe.

I think it's very plausible that this will be a requirement and people will go with it. People in at least 5 states have all agreed to be fingerprinted so they can, well, do anything (since you can't do anything without ID now). They didn't like it, but hardly any of them so much as wrote a legislator.

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BaoQingTian
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It will start with sex offenders. Then move to convicted felons. Then the military, police officers, and certain government employees. Finally private citizens will be tagged. Each step along the way will make sense. I think it's a certainty that we will be somewhere along the above continium in the next 15 years-most likely near or at the private citizen end. It's all my opinion, no hard facts involved, but you asked for it.
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aspectre
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Good grief. Most of you already run around with cell-phones. Cell-phones can already be traced to a nearly exact location when they are set to receive incoming calls, as well as during the more obvious outgoing calls.

And legislation has already been passed which mandates that new cell-phones must be able to be turned on by the cell-service provider -- even if the owner has it shut off -- upon request by law enforcement or intelligence agencies.
ie If ya keep a cellphone with ya, soon it will be possible for the government to eavesdrop on ya whenever they want.

[ October 30, 2006, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
I would move to another country, fast, if this were ever implemented. I would hope that it would never even be seriously considered here, but given how complacent the population as a whole has been about giving up civil liberties so far...

I'm with you. Where shall we go?

-pH

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pH
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aspectre, you don't think there's a huge difference between cell phones and...microchips in your skin? I mean, anyone can track my car with the almighty satellites, but that's completely different from tracking ME.

-pH

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lem
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quote:
Has GWB really endorsed this? I find it hard to believe.
Not that I know of. The article talks about Britain. However, I am with BaoQingTian that it will be done incrementally. Sex offenders, private companies, select hospital/mental patients, law enforcement.

It will get to a point that it is so convenient for commerce that the rest of the population will follow suite.

I am not convinced there is a maniacal plot behind the transition to chip-citizens, but I do think the transition is probable. It probably doesn't matter much anyway. Schools already are introducing RIF tags, biometric lunch machines, and cameras everywhere.

It is not like we live in a day of anonymity.

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lem
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quote:
I mean, anyone can track my car with the almighty satellites
Actually they can track you with the little black box in your car that come in all new automobiles.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
Oh, the Southern Baptists will have a field day with this...

THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US, PEOPLE.

As far as I understand the Rapture mythology, doesn't the Mark of the Beast in order to buy and sell things come after the Rapture? If so, doesn't saying that this is one of the prophecies kinda put them into the unsaved column, according to the story?

edit: Nevermind, looked it up. Apparently, there's a disagreement as to whether the Rapture will be before, after, or in the middle of the 7 years of tribulation.

---

As to the chipping? I really don't know. I find the Bush government has been able to get away with so much more than I would have ever granted had I not lived through it. I'd like to say that public opinion and protest would prevent this from being implemented, but I would have said that for a bunch of other things, such as the paperless electronic voting machines, so who the heck knows.

I do think, no matter what, we're going to be moving towards a more ID'd society, but I'm expecting (or maybe hoping) that it will be biometric as opposed to implantation that will be used.

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aspectre
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As far as I know, that little black box is mostly in high-end automobiles to keep track of mechanical performance. And while it could be pulled out and placed in a reader after eg an accident to see if the driver was speeding, whether the brakes were used, etc, there is no remote-read capability.

Have you run across an article that says differently? Or are you talking of OnStar/LoJack/etc?

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pH
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I have OnStar, and I have no problem with having OnStar. I pay a subscription to OnStar because it really comes in handy, even though I have AAA. Plus, it automatically sends emergency help if the airbags go off. On top of that, it has a much better range than a cell phone, and a button that automatically dials for an emergency line if you need it.

-pH

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Good grief. Most of you already run around with cell-phones. Cell-phones can already be traced to a nearly exact location when they are set to receive incoming calls, as well as during the more obvious outgoing calls.

And legislation has already been passed which mandates that new cell-phones must be able to be turned on by the cell-service provider -- even if the owner has it shut off -- upon request by law enforcement or intelligence agencies.
ie If ya keep a cellphone with ya, soon it will be possible for the government to eavesdrop on ya whenever they want.

Can you cite the first and third claims made here?
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Alcon
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If the US government starts seriously considering this I'm throwing in the towel and moving the Canada.
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Dan_raven
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Yes Alcon, and they'll be able to track you all the way.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by Alcon:
If the US government starts seriously considering this I'm throwing in the towel and moving the Canada.

Where will you move it? There's not a lot of room left. Maybe somewhere in the pacific?
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Alcon
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Mars. And I'll bring the atmosphere with it. And I'll go with it. Let them track me to there [Razz]
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Rakeesh
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I do think that given both how ignorant most of the public is as to the extent we're already tracked, via Internet activity and purchasing for instance, it'll happen.
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smitty
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quote:
Originally posted by Alcon:
If the US government starts seriously considering this I'm throwing in the towel and moving the Canada.

It's a sad commentary when people choose moving to Canada over staying and trying to be part of the solution.

I personally don't see this coming to pass in my lifetime, but I agree that it will likely be done incrementally.

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aspectre
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cell site data

I'll keep looking for the remote activation legislation.

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akhockey
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
Of course I think this is a good idea. Anything our great leaders, especially Uncle Cheney, Big Brother Rumsfield, or Good Ol' President Bush think is best for us folks is perfectly all right with me.

Yeah, I guess that's an appropriate reaction. Seeing as how the article mentioned any of the "leaders" of either country, and specified Cheney, Rummy, and Bush.

What's next? "Independent Study Claims It Might Someday Be Possible That French People May Possibly Have To Show ID To Vote, Maybe" which is responded to by a valid "Blame Bush!" claim.

That makes sense.

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Dan_raven
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Your right AK.

That was an uncalled upon attack on President Bush and his administration.

Yet the panic and hysteria I tried putting into that semi-funny post was supposed to mock those panicing about Governmental Control as much as those panicing about Terrorists Attacks.

In other words, its not time to pack up Canada and move it to a safer spot.

On the other hand I listened to a speech given by President Bush yesterday in Indiana. He asked a bunch of, what in Sales School, we called "leading questions." The idea is that if you get the crowd to yell "Yes" often enough, they won't stop when you ask for the cash.

So while the crowd was on a roll yelling "Yes!" to everything President Bush asked, he asked a final question. "Do you want us to find the terrorists, no matter what the cost?"

And the crowd yelled, "YES!!!"

And I got scared, because there are a lot of costs that I don't want my government to pay in order to find the terrorists.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
Number 6: Where am I?
Number 2: In the Village.
Number 6: What do you want?
Number 2: We want information.
Number 6: Whose side are you on?
Number 2: That would be telling. We want information... information... information.
Number 6: You won't get it.
Number 2: By hook or by crook, we will.
Number 6: Who are you?
Number 2: The new Number 2.
Number 6: Who is Number 1?
Number 2: You are Number 6.
Number 6: I am not a number, I am a free man.


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andi330
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
Oh, the Southern Baptists will have a field day with this...

THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US, PEOPLE.

As far as I understand the Rapture mythology, doesn't the Mark of the Beast in order to buy and sell things come after the Rapture? If so, doesn't saying that this is one of the prophecies kinda put them into the unsaved column, according to the story?

edit: Nevermind, looked it up. Apparently, there's a disagreement as to whether the Rapture will be before, after, or in the middle of the 7 years of tribulation.

---

As to the chipping? I really don't know. I find the Bush government has been able to get away with so much more than I would have ever granted had I not lived through it. I'd like to say that public opinion and protest would prevent this from being implemented, but I would have said that for a bunch of other things, such as the paperless electronic voting machines, so who the heck knows.

I do think, no matter what, we're going to be moving towards a more ID'd society, but I'm expecting (or maybe hoping) that it will be biometric as opposed to implantation that will be used.

Well...it depends. There is a fair amount of debate in the Christian community about whether the rapture will occur/has already occurred/will occur at all. The rapture is a relatively new concept in and of itself. Not Armageddon mind, but the Rapture. In fact, many believe that there will be no rapture at all. The tribulation will come, and afterward those who believe will live on a New Earth.

The rapture has become a much more popular subject (even in the secular world) thanks to the ever popular Left Behind series. (Which still isn't over, thankfully there's only one book left to go...or so we believe.) And yes, in the book The Mark the mark of the beast was a microchip along with a tatoo of a certain number combination.

Before I derail this thread any further, I'll stop. Suffice it to say that there are many schools of though on the subject.

*Resume thread topic.

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Lyrhawn
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Nah, the first people will PAY to have those things implanted. Why? Because they'll be the elderly.

The first round of bio-chips will read a small array of lifesigns, and in the case of emergency will send out a signal to emergency services, so if anything should happen to an elderly person living alone, or just unattended, help will still arrive much faster than ever before, ensuring even longer lives for them.

Next will come corporations PAYING people to be temporarily implanted. Why? The chip will send signals to their tvs to see what they are watching and when they watch it, then it'll track them to see where they actually go afterwards, if they go shopping at or to eat at the places that were advertised on tv. It's the ULTIMATE consumer report. They could sell that stuff at a premium to vendors who want to know how effective their ad campaign is, and they'll pay for volunteers.

Somewhere in there, the chips will be programmed to emit RFID waves to control appliances and electronic devices:

"Don't want your car stolen? Well, with this new biometric safeguard, your car can only be operated if you are in the car with it! Have a loved one? No problem! Get them implanted too and we can program their chip to operate off your frequency for a small charge!"

It'll start off as something for the uberwealthy. What's the point of kidnapping the guy to get his car? At some point you have to get rid of him, and then you still have a useless car, unless you get someone to hack the car's computer to reset the RFID code, which opens up a slew of other issues, because then you need to have the new buyer implanted and tagged too. Carjackers aren't that high tech, at least not all of them, not yet.

Same thing will go for high end electronics, like laptops or PDAs and handheld computers and cell phones. I've already seen biometric chips implanted on people who can wave them in front of door locks to unlock deadbolts, so no more picking locks, not you have to steal someone's wrist to get into their house (or just break an old fashioned window).

Don't worry about having your credit cards, wallet, license, or anything stolen, all your information is stored in your wrist, which you'll wave over a detector to pay for your lunch, or your new TV, or when a cop stops you for speeding. You'll never have to worry again about identity theft. What you say? A purchase was made in your name in Indiana when you were in Michigan? Well we'll just check...yep, you were clearly at work when the purchase was made, so no fraudulent charges will be passed on to you.

Surely you can all appreciate the peace of mind, the safety, and more than anything the convenience that this will give people. No, the state will NEVER have to force this on anybody. An RFID chip implanted society is a commercial dream for corporations, and it sounds like a fantasy land for the average citizen too. People will clamor for, demand for, and pay top dollar (and receive top dollar) for this cutting edge society changing techology.

And of course this information will be off limits to law enforcement officials, in fact, it's all anonymous other than your age range, gender, and other demographic data that doesn't involve names. But then a major crime will be committed, and the FBI will go to Chip Inc. and say "there's a madman on the loose, we need to check your database to see if you know where he is." The company, what with the recent track records of companies giving up confidential data to law enforcement without a fight, will say "well, just this once, for the common good," and create a precedent of using chips to track people. That's how they get their foot in the door.

There's terrorism afoot! There's a child molester lurking in your neighborhood, we're going to activate all your chips so we can see who is who, and then apprehend the suspect, no need to worry. And while we're at it, this guy here is late on child support, better round him up too, and that woman over there was short on her taxes, better pay her a visit. And the guy walking down the street in front of that apartment building, he's violating a restraining order on the women in the store across the street, better pick him up. Send out the cars!

That's what I think is the most likely scenario. Hell, it'd make a great movie, which I'd go see, if the very plausibility of just such a situation didn't scare the bejeezes out of me.

I think everyone here who thinks the government will FORCE anyone to be implanted with chips is nuts. People will DEMAND that they either be given the option to implant them for commercial reasons or for health reasons, or reasons we haven't even thought up yet.

How many injustices have been committed in the past with the populace clamoring for the injustice to be committed, not fully knowing what they were asking for?

[ October 31, 2006, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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ricree101
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Both scenarios sound entirely too plausible.
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aspectre
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Nightclubbers paid to have RFID chips implanted two and a half years ago. At about the same time, large numbers of Japanese began using their cellphones as a combination identification and credit/cash card.
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ricree101
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From the article:

quote:
Andrea Fulcher, of ADS, says she doesn't understand why people may be afraid of having the chip. "It is strictly voluntary and, in the future, we see many benefits for users." She also points out that the chip is easy to remove if you change your mind. The company is working on evolutionary developments, including chips that contain GPS trackers.
Strictly voluntary, right? Just like giving out one's social security number is also voluntary?
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aspectre
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Still haven't found the specific law mandating that soon all cellphones must be capable of being remotely activated even if switched off, however...

[ December 16, 2006, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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B34N
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We're already tagged, everywhere we go we can be tracked, it's called your cell phone. Every new generation cell phone by law must have GPS tracking installed on it.
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Rotar Mode
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People aren't required to have cellphones, though.
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ricree101
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No, but they're pretty darned convenient, and it would be pretty sad if our only options were to deal with the fact that someone could be using them to spy on us or to have to forgo them entirely.
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Euripides
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Who didn't see this coming when we all read about the university professor who implanted himself with a microchip, or when there was talk of national ID cards?
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aspectre
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Then there's LittleSister tagging along after you...
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by pH:
quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
I would move to another country, fast, if this were ever implemented. I would hope that it would never even be seriously considered here, but given how complacent the population as a whole has been about giving up civil liberties so far...

I'm with you. Where shall we go?

-pH

Let's go to Pokadoodle !
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by B34N:
We're already tagged, everywhere we go we can be tracked, it's called your cell phone. Every new generation cell phone by law must have GPS tracking installed on it.

Yes, but can't you take off the batteries on those so they can't track you?
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Paul Goldner
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you can also turn off the GPS tracking on most phones. If that doesn't turn off the GPS, you could probably nail the manufacturers for fraud.

It seems the FBI uses phones as recorders/transmitters for the surroundings of the cell phone. So if you aren't the target of the recording, you could probably challenge the FBI in a variety of property law ways.

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B34N
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
you can also turn off the GPS tracking on most phones. If that doesn't turn off the GPS, you could probably nail the manufacturers for fraud.

It seems the FBI uses phones as recorders/transmitters for the surroundings of the cell phone. So if you aren't the target of the recording, you could probably challenge the FBI in a variety of property law ways.

You can turn off general GPS tracking but the emergency GPS tracking always stays on no matter what which means that any authorized official or agency can tap into it.

As for the batteries thing, can't most small devices like internal clocks and what not run off their very small power supply. I honestly don't know if you take out the battery or turnt he phone off if the GPS is still functional, it probably keeps a short charge for what it is intended for emergencies. Like if you get stranded somewhere or are kidnapped but it could also be used in the wrong manner most definitely.

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ricree101
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I would imagine that GPS uses too much power for it to run for any meaningful length of time without the battery.
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King of Men
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More to the point, you can leave your phone somewhere you aren't; you can give it to someone else; it can be stolen; you can smash it up; or you can just not buy one.
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Euripides
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quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:

No, but they're pretty darned convenient, and it would be pretty sad if our only options were to deal with the fact that someone could be using them to spy on us or to have to forgo them entirely.


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Tante Shvester
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Dang! I already have to line my sheitl with tin foil to keep the aliens from listening in to the chip they implanted in my brain, and now THIS!

Honestly, do you have any idea how scratchy a tin foil lined sheitl is in the summertime?

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Primal Curve
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quote:
Originally posted by pH:
Oh, the Southern Baptists will have a field day with this...

THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US, PEOPLE.

But seriously, um. Yeah, this idea scares the crap out of me.

-pH

There are days, pH, were I swear we've lived the same life in different places.

It's eerie.

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Sterling
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Right now, I think the justification that would be used to encourage chip implantation (once beyond the private sector employees et. al.) is the notion of keeping out illegal immigrants. There appears to be a fairly ugly strain of xenephobia permeating the country right now.

Beyond that, the appeal will be to convenience. Y'know; You fight terrorism, keep out illegal aliens, and get a coupon for a free Domino's Pizza and a Blockbuster rental with your implant. [Wink]

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