posted
Steven. We've been through all this before. It's junk-science. Dr. Price was misled by his desire to validate pre-conceived notions. I have offered repeatedly to share knowledge of the scientific method with you so that you can avoid falling victim to the same error as Dr. Price. Are you ready to take me up on that offer yet?
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posted
Sure, if you'll do it online, in front of everyone, and if we do an analysis of each page of chapters 18 and 19 simultaneously.
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"Peanuts! 50 cents a bag, get your peanuts!" "Cotton Candy! Free for the little ones, 75 cents for adults."
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Sir, I have come to complain about this parrot! What's wrong with it? It has no life, sir! No, no. It's only stunned.
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posted
Hum. I've been reading comrade Price, in accordance with the challenge made this summer; I must admit that I find it slow going, though. At any rate, I must say I do think he makes a good case that a modern diet of processed foods - particularly sticky white bread - if you don't brush your teeth, will lead to massive tooth rot. Which was probably quite surprising in the thirties, who knows? There are still considerable concerns about the methodology; in particular, we are told nothing about how he divided people into 'modern-eaters' and 'primitive-eaters'. In fact, the division seems suspiciously complete, with almost no reported cases of people eating both kinds of food. One might almost suspect that he looked at the teeth first and then decided what dietary information he was going to pay attention to! But since the correlation of white bread, no toothbrushes, and caries is well corroborated elsewhere, I suppose we can believe him on this. Where he goes off the deep end is in the correlation with various other illnesses, for which he offers only anecdotal evidence - including some 'miracle cures' of a suspiciously snake-oil-like variety - and page upon page of statistics about the amount of vitamins X, Y and Z there are in various foods. Now, it's probably fair to say that his information about vitamins was new and important back in the day, when perhaps the chemistry for synthesizing the stuff wasn't so good, and preservatives tended to take out everything but calories. I rather doubt these things are still true, though; and even at that, as I said, only anecdotal evidence is offered for vitamin-deficiency illnesses. In fact, the contrast is quite sharp; in the early chapters, where he's going about checking on primitives, it's all "We examined X number of primitive-diet teeth, and Y number of modern-diet teeth, and found much higher percentages of caries in the latter." (He'll also give some pictures of narrow modern faces versus broad primitive faces, which amounts to anecdotal evidence since there is no account of how he avoided cherry-picking his photographs.) As mentioned, there are concerns with the methodology, but at least he gives by-God genuine numbers! But then when you get into the later chapters, it's all "I treated a boy" and "This lad was extremely malnourished". Anecdotes!
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It's alittle bit dishonest of you to imply that I was ever unwilling to do all of this publicly. If you will recall, I offered to read Dr. Price's treatise if you would cause my critique to stay up on the Price Society website for one year. Barring that, I offered to read and critique it for the same sum you offered to pay KOM. You couldn't deliver on the first offer and refused the second.
I will read through it and begin my critique with whatever passes for his methods section, but I want something from you first. You have to stick with the discussion right through to the bitter end this time. If not, then I want your promise that you will never bring up Dr. Price on Hatrack again. If you do, I'll be here to quote your promise back to you in you own words.
posted
Hi steven. I'm so glad to see you back here at Hatrack. I can honestly say that I've missed you here, and that I look forward to reading your posts. While I may not always agree with your assertions, I do enjoy hearing you present and defend them, and I encourage your right to do so here.
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See...I disagree that he has actually defended his assertions. He has persisted in saying the same things over and over, without answering any of the criticisms with substantive arguments. And, when that fails, he leaves for a little while and then comes back with the same stuff, and the same assertions -- as if there had never been any prior discussions.
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Tante is more fair minded than most of us, I suspect. She always seems to find the good and give the benefit of the doubt until absolutely no one could. That, or she's really making fun of us all but she hides it really really well.
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Hey, this thread turned into an "all-about-ME!!" That's awesome. You may all continue to hijack poor steven's earnest thread in order to sing my praises.
(Sorry, steven, the hijack was unintentional on my part. What can we do? My fans are unable to contain themselves. I would suggest that you might re-rail the thread by, you know, posting in it again. I look forward to you defending your position.)
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Uh.. can someone link the discussion Bob is talking about? I must have missed it entirely (or blocked it out).
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The bad thing about deleting posts is that you can't defend yourself when I start telling lies about what happened in there.
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Price is Price. I didn't write the book. I take the dietary conclusions that the primitive groups all reached independent of one another VERY seriously for my own diet, but that's up to the individual.
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Porter....read el booko, chapter 15. Organ meats, fatty body parts, fish eggs, and shellfish are all important for pregant women and young children to eat to facilitate normal skeletal development and general health.
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There's no way that every single primitive group ate significant amounts of fish eggs or shellfish, as they are not to be found in many areas.
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posted
Steven, I don't know you very well, so this question may have already been answered elsewhere.
I notice that your email address is from a domain called "rawfoods.com". I don't suppose you have any financial interest in making people believe that they need to eat this way, do you?
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posted
Exactly, Porter. If you'll read Ch. 15 in el booko, you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
[ December 04, 2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: steven ]
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Rawfoods mail is free and almost never down, and I've been with it so long it would be a monstrous amount of hassle to change it over.
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OK, I don't know steven or the history here but Bob said
quote: Steven. We've been through all this before. It's junk-science. Dr. Price was misled by his desire to validate pre-conceived notions. I have offered repeatedly to share knowledge of the scientific method with you so that you can avoid falling victim to the same error as Dr. Price. Are you ready to take me up on that offer yet?
which leads me to believe this has been discussed before. So do I misunderstand the situation/history or the definition and connotation of the word stumbled as used in the title of this topic?
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posted
Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
A question, steven -- what do you think about populations that, for religious and cultural reasons, are largely vegetarian, such as Indian Hindus and Chinese and Japanese Buddhists? Do you maintain that their health is ill-effected?
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I would imagine that she means: their health is impacted negatively because they do not comply with many of the precepts put forth by Dr. Price.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
*sincerely
Selling books or subscribed newsletters about a raw food diet, selling supplements made from shellfish or the like, etc. There is always a way (potentially) to make money from an idea, and so it was a good question, IMO.
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posted
Since steven has a long and storied history of deleting these threads once it's clear that the tide has turned against him and the junk science he promotes, I think that another thread should be started before any serious discussion starts. Assuming anyone is intent on seriously discussing this stuff with him.
I'd just hate for anyone else to have posts they put time and effort into disappear when steven inevitably takes his ball and goes home.
Consider this fair warning for all those unfamiliar with his m.o.Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
You gotta love how white Americans wrote about other races back then: "The characteristics of the Polynesian race included straight hair, oval features, happy, buoyant dispositions and splendid physiques" (beginning of Chapter 8, italics added). Say what?
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Exactly, Porter. If you'll read Ch. 15 in el booko, you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
And Americans will wait in line, outside, for days for a chance to buy a video game console. Human beings aren't always rational in their actions.
Not trying to derail, just adding some levity to what will likely be thread with a short life span for one reason or another. I only say this because I too remember the first go around of this particular (and identical) topic.
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Polynesians are buoyant and therefore float, whereas other races will experience equal, lesser, or perhaps complete absence of buoyancy.
DUH!
I'm white and I can remember the first time I took to the water, without that innertube I would have been a goner. I can only envy the Polynesians for being naturally buoyant, must come in handy when a ship sinks.
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quote:you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
You know, i have no idea if there were some tribes who did this or not. I do know that claiming it was or is universal is completely wrong.
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quote: And Americans will wait in line, outside, for days for a chance to buy a video game console. Human beings aren't always rational in their actions.
Sorry for double posting but I wanted to address this.
Rational? Perhaps you think the stock they put into their entertainment is excessive but experiencing temporary discomfort and even outright pain in order to obtain longer lasting pleasure is perfectly rational. Why are women willing to suffer for 9 months and go into labor for hours even days in order to give birth?
Not that I am saying babies and video games are of equal value, merely that the principle is the same.
Even if you do not accept that, if you were like me. You did the math.
I make X in dollars everyday. The PS3 costs Y dollars. I can Ebay the PS3 for Z dollars. If I wait 2 days in line for the PS3 I give up X2 dollars.
If Z > (X*2 + Y)*3
What is irrational about accepting that loss in order to obtain a bigger benefit?
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
*sincerely
Selling books or subscribed newsletters about a raw food diet, selling supplements made from shellfish or the like, etc. There is always a way (potentially) to make money from an idea, and so it was a good question, IMO.
And this is also like asking why the guy on late night infomercials is TELLING you how to make a fortune instead of just going out and making his own. Part of the kick that diet-control freaks get out of their obsessions (sorry, judgement) is convincing other people that they're on to something... Or maybe they need to convince themselves by convincing others first. I don't see it much differently than I see religious cults or political extremist groups.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Oh, thanks for setting me straight, squick.
Double posting again
Steven if you are unable to take the time to address other's points that is understandable but at least do them the courtesy of making them aware of that fact.
Making snide comments at other people's short posts whilst ignoring the sincere ones demonstrates an unwillingness to maturely discuss this topic.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: I would imagine that she means: their health is impacted negatively because they do not comply with many of the precepts put forth by Dr. Price.
Yeah. That's what I meant.
Oh, and Black Blade, sounds like somebody camped out on the pavement overnight to get his video game. Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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