quote:Because each person's health is their own responsibility, NOT the government's.
Not according to the schools that teach my children. They are full of all kinds of propeganda about fire saftey, drugs, and more. Why? Because someone with power and money decided it was important enough. The superiority of organic foods didn't make the list.
Probably because it is NOT agreed upon.
Lack of pesticide exposure = good Additional mold, mildew, and insect infestation = bad Additional cost, and therefore probably less produce consumed by poor households = bad
Whether organic produce is on net better or worse is not so simple, and therefore I certainly am glad the government is not pushing it. (They are quite open about both the benefits and the drawbacks.)
And as far as the majority of studies I have seen indicate, there is little or no evidence that "artificial" vitamins and minerals provide any less nutritional value than natural ones, provided they are with their "partners" (such as having the correct balance of calcium and magnesium, etc.).
Many of the choices about which health issues are taught to your children are made by individual teachers and/or schools. Also, your kids are very young. Some of these issues are too complex for elementary school, and they will probably hear about them in high school.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:steven....how many "natural" grown tomatoes have the reasfings of the "best"? Most don't I'd bet.
Here ya go, from page 11. I am guessing that it is supposed to say "readings", but I am not sure.
Banna said something about all the nutrients a plant needs can be synthesized and that the plants wouldn't know the difference. I haven't found it yet, though.
Bev...that was me, and I stand by it. He was talking about a BS test, using a meter incorrectly to get it, and telling us that hydroponics don't work, and can't meet the same standards that his own tomatoes can, without mentioning that even his own home grown ones don't all measure up to a his above mentioned standard.
I never said I knew everything about nutrition, but when hydroponic grown vegetables are grown and the majority of people can't tell the difference (with or without actual scientific testings), I'd say hydroponics are a viable option. Particularly since the specific lab I mentioned, at Disney, uses natural home grown pest controls, macrobiotics measures, and natural fungicides whenever possible., rather than using chemicals.
The tomatoes and other plants they grow are used in their own restraunts, BTW, and are a huge hit.
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: all your so-called "organics" that your fruiting plants need, can be completely synthizised from non-organic sources and the plants aint gonna know the difference.
quote: there is absolutely no difference in the final ion product with respect to synthetic nutrients and organic based nutrients. An ion is an ion. It is simply a different way of delivering the food to the plant. As has been stated, plants “eat” ions in an inorganic form in the end anyway. In other words, plants do not eat guano ions, or kelp ions; they eat the inorganic constituents of these materials after they have been broken down or dissolved in water.
Bev...here is the quote you were looking for, BTW.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: ...the specific lab I mentioned, at Disney, uses natural home grown pest controls, macrobiotics measures, and natural fungicides whenever possible., rather than using chemicals.
Those things are all chemicals as well. The word "chemical" is not a pejorative. Nor are things inherently good because they're "natural" (whatever that means -- plenty of "natural" goods are synthesized anyway).
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Kwea, according to Rex Harrill, the moderator of the Brix Yahoo group, who lives in Florida, the orange growers for the Florida orange juice industry are paid according to the Brix of their oranges. Higher Brix=more cash per bushel.
You are conflating vegetables and fruiting plants. The complex relationship between fruiting plants and microbes is not yet fully understood. For vegetables it's simpler, and hydroponics is more likely to give similar results as soil-grown.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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And brix basically = sugar. The way they are talking about total solids being comparable to brix I have major issues with, because of the physics of light and refractive indices.
Of course things with more sugar taste better to everyone! That part of it does make sense to me. I do *not* agree that brix actually implies anything about anything other than sugars content.
With regards to other items being discussed involving my name.
From my reading of Price, it wasn't necessarily that he wanted to return to whole grains because he realized that industrialized processes for feeding a nation weren't entirely compatible with such a notion. But, that in lieu of whole grains making sure everyone has vitamins is a good thing. Breakfast cereals are currently enriched with *more* vitamins than are in the raw grains. This helps compensate for a less balanced diet.
I never said that eating less processed food is bad, I said that I think Price would be pleased that the nutrient content of processed food has vastly improved.
I also completely stand by my statement about plants. Supplying minerals in hydroponic form generally results in far more nutrient rich plants, because the minerals are easily accesibleand they can't tell the difference in where the ions came from.
Bev, one of the cool things about plants is all of these "organics" you are talking about, are things that plants make for themselves. From the air. The roots exist to provide the trace minerals and water. Every single carbon atom in a plant, even the roots, came from carbon dioxide molecule in the air. None of it came from the ground. The trace minerals of course are necessary in helping the carbon fixation process, but it doesn't matter where they come from as long as the correct ions are there.
I would agree that fruiting plants are more complex particularly in pollination mechanisms, and there may be some microbe symbiosis in the wild, because the microbes can eat harmful things, and put nutritents in more accesible forms. But pollination can be provided for artificially in most cases, and in most agricultural fruits the entire process is very well defined.
Do plants synthesize different chemicals in response to environmental stressors? Absolutely. But you would have a hard time convincing me that those chemicals help humans nutritionally in any whey, when they get broken right back down into simple molecules in our stomachs and digestive systems. Those complex molecules get destroyed so fast by the acidic pH in our stomachs that I think their nutritional usefulness is highly unlikely.
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"I do *not* agree that brix actually implies anything about anything other than sugars content."
I never said otherwise. It is possible to have high Brix and low mineral content. That's why you also can use an EC meter to determine total mineral content. You can also test for phosphorus, calcium, etc.
I am not insulting the idea of hydroponics. I think it's the wave of the future. I think it's also important to be honest about where we are versus where we one day will be, nutritionally speaking, in hydroponics. Brix and EC, among other tests, help tremendously in this regard. Animal testing takes a lot longer, but is another objective measure.
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Electrical conductivity will give you an idea of the ionization of the object, however to directly correlate it with total mineral content is problematic, as an increase in sodium chloride will increase electrical conductivity.
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That leaves us with animal testing, which I mentioned a couple of posts ago. I imagine you can get results with insects in a couple of days, and with mice in a few weeks. I still say that Brix+EC is an excellent starting point.
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OR use specific ion electrodes. THey are considereably cheaper than animal testing. I don't understand what your aim of animal testing is? A good laboratory assay would tell you the organics present so I don't see why you need animals.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: ...the specific lab I mentioned, at Disney, uses natural home grown pest controls, macrobiotics measures, and natural fungicides whenever possible., rather than using chemicals.
Those things are all chemicals as well. The word "chemical" is not a pejorative. Nor are things inherently good because they're "natural" (whatever that means -- plenty of "natural" goods are synthesized anyway).
I know that, twinky, I really do. I was trying to be concise and left something out. Again.
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I don't doubt that we still have a ton of things to learn....about ourselves and about the food we eat. I do think that modern science is a MUCH better, more reliable way of finding out what we do and don't know, and increasing the amount we do know in a significant manner.
I just had a couple of problems with you claiming your personal beliefs as scientifically proven fact, and with you jumping on anyone who objected to any part of your arguments, steven. I tried, at least at first, to leave an opening for you. I heard a lot of people saying that for his time, Price wasn't was off base.
But the scientific method has evolved, and a lot of study has been given to a lot of claims he had made. There are also a lot of predujces in some of his views, and eugenics was not a pretty movement. Nor was it particularily scientific in it's processes.
I hope that hydroponics are the gleaming hope they seem to be, and that we will continue to improve on their techniques.
But I still don't believe, nor have I seen any real proof, of people regrowing teeth, or curing their Downs Syndrome.
Nor do I get anything other than disgust reading up on Ormus. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Banna, animal testing is the gold standard by which the usefulness of any other testing method is judged. I have never worked with single-element electrodes, nor have I heard of anyone in hydroponics using them. Can you point me to some hydroponics papers on using them?
Regarding regrowing teeth--there's no question that people have had their cavities healed using diet alone. You can find plenty of pictures of this in Dr. Price's book.
It's also very true that sometimes people do regrow teeth on their own, without dietary changes. I admit to knowing squat about how that works.
Down's syndrome--Dr. Price found that older women on a traditional-style diet were not more likely, on average, than younger women, to have children with birth defects.
My whole point with eating a traditional-style diet is this--when you break down nature, you had better know what you're doing. "The Law of Unintended Consequences" applies. My personal experience has been that, the better quality food I eat, the more pleasant the surprises in my life tend to be, barring other factors. The opposite is true when I don't eat so well.
Re: Ormus--here are the basic facts.
1. David Hudson found huge amounts of "precious metals" in the volcanic dirt on his land in Arizona. He was extracting rhodium to the tune of 100 pounds per ton or more from this dirt, as well as iridium and gold, et al in smaller amounts. Rhodium goes for about 3-5 thousand dollars an ounce, currently.
2. The ancient alchemists said that these materials like white powder gold, the oil of gold, and others would prolong life and increase health.
3. I personally know quite a few Ormus researchers who have had their own cancer healed via taking Ormus, or have provided Ormus to people who have healed their own cancer using it. Don Nance at Atlantis Alchemy is one such person. I can name 4 or 5 others easily.
4. Ormus elements exist in large abundance in certain rocks, some groundwater, and seawater, and many plants. They are much more abundant in their Ormus form in nature than the metallic form. David Hudson's chemists found them in brain matter, Concord grape juice, aloe vera, and some Hawaiian-grown carrots, as well as other foods. Other researchers have found Ormus in groundwater.
5. Plants grown in volcanic soil are very often extremely nutritious compared to other soil types. Anyone who has been to Hawaii or Costa Rica and eaten lots of the local fruit can attest to this.
6. The anecdotal research of Dr. Price suggests that native diets are extremely protective against cancer as well as other common health problems.
7. Many raw food vegan healing centers claim high rates of cancer cures. Hippocrates Health Institute is one. I have heard they claim 77% cancer cure rate, although I've never contacted them. I'm not a vegan, and I suspect the rate would be higher using good-quality raw animal products like good-quality raw dairy and fish eggs.
8. Many Ormus researchers have seen their hair start to return to it's original color from being gray. I can name at least 3 or 4.
9. Stories of hair turning to its original color are very abundant in the raw foods community. I started going gray at age 25, went 100% raw, and the gray disappeard 2-3 months later, and hasn't returned since.
10. Several Ormus reseachers have reported the healing of tooth problems.
11. Billins of dollars in research money ahs been spent on learning how to use the platinum group metals to heal cancer. The research is geared toward getting the particles to their smallest size and keeping them at that size. Ormus is probably eithier diatomic or monatomic, according to most Ormus researchers.
Can anyone see what I'm sayin'? I don't think the case is closed by any means. Don't assume I do. I think it may actually be ridiculously more complicated.
Here's a nice passage from Chapter 15. It has nothing to do with Ormus but I thought I'd post it and see what you said.
"Shortly before our arrival in Northern Canada a white prospector had died of scurvy. Beside him was his white man's packet of canned foods. Any Indian man or woman, boy or girl, could have told him how to save his life by eating animal organs or the buds of trees.
Another illustration of the wisdom of the native Indians of that far north country came to me through two prospectors whom we rescued and brought out with us just before the fall freeze-up. They had gone into the district, which at that time was still uncharted and unsurveyed, to prospect for precious metals and radium. They were both doctors of engineering and science, and had been sent with very elaborate equipment from one of the large national mining corporations. Owing to the inaccessibility of the region, they adopted a plan for reaching it quickly. They had flown across the two ranges of mountains from Alaska and when they arrived at the inside range, i.e., the Rocky Mountain Range, they found the altitude so high that their plane could not fly over the range, and, as a result, they were brought down on a little lake outside. The plane then returned but was unable to reach the outside world because of shortage of fuel. The pilot had to leave it on a waterway and trudge over the mountains to civilization. The two prospectors undertook to carry their equipment and provisions over the Rocky Mountain Range into the interior district where they were to prospect. They found the distance across the plateau to be about one hundred miles and the elevation ranging up to nine thousand feet. While they had provisions and equipment to stay two years they found it would take all of this time to carry their provisions and instruments across this plateau. They accordingly abandoned everything, and rather than remain in the country with very uncertain facilities and prospects for obtaining food and shelter, made a forced march to the Liard River with the hope that some expedition might be in that territory. One of the men told me the following tragic story. While they were crossing the high plateau he nearly went blind with so violent a pain in his eyes that he feared he would go insane. It was not snow blindness, for they were equipped with glasses. It was xeropthalmia, due to lack of vitamin A. One day he almost ran into a mother grizzly bear and her two cubs. Fortunately, they did not attack him but moved off. He sat down on a stone and wept in despair of ever seeing his family again. As he sat there holding his throbbing head, he heard a voice and looked up. It was an old Indian who had been tracking that grizzly bear. He recognized this prospector's plight and while neither could understand the language of the other, the Indian after making an examination of his eyes, took him by the hand and led him to a stream that was coursing its way down the mountain. Here as the prospector sat waiting the Indian built a trap of stones across the stream. He then went upstream and waded down splashing as he came and thus drove the trout into the trap. He threw the fish out on the bank and told the prospector to eat the flesh of the head and the tissues back of the eyes, including the eyes, with the result that in a few hours his pain had largely subsided. In one day his sight was rapidly returning, and in two days his eyes were nearly normal. He told me with profound emotion and gratitude that that Indian had certainly saved his life.
Now modern science knows that one of the richest sources of vitamin A in the entire animal body is that of the tissues back of the eyes including the retina of the eye...."
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Sorry, y'all. We had a big storm come through Oregon, and we lost power for about 48 hours. Quite an adventure!
quote:Regarding regrowing teeth--there's no question that people have had their cavities healed using diet alone. You can find plenty of pictures of this in Dr. Price's book.
It's also very true that sometimes people do regrow teeth on their own, without dietary changes. I admit to knowing squat about how that works.
I know very little about dentistry, but I had a small cavity this last year, one of those "let's wait and see" cavities. I had been told "wait and see" on small cavities before by other dentists. I remember asking the dentist, "Why wait and see? What do you expect to happen?" The dentist told me that sometimes a cavity can "recalcify" or something like that, basically implying that there are times when the mineral enamel of the tooth can build back up again. I thought this sounded extraordinary and asked him more about it. He said that the minerals that we take in can contribute to it.
I just want to generally apologize for getting cranky with y'all. I still honestly don't understand the issues you have with steven, since I find what he has to say interesting, but we might just have to agree to disagree.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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15 pages? I go away for a week and a half because of a wedding and living at work (not going to get better before the 22nd, then it's lots of family time until the second) and I have 11 pages to catch up on? wow... I thought I'd have to go searching three or four pages back to find the thread.
Price didnt claim to heal cavities, but in his practice he induced (through changes in diet) dentine to remineralize over existing calories. he never proved it scientifically or published professionally, but NaPD is full of anecdotes from his practice) I think this is one of many things Steven didn't quite understand.
To quote the good doctor:
quote:If [the chemical content of the saliva] has been sufficiently improved, bacterial growth will not only be inhibited, but the leathery decayed dentine will become mineralized from the saliva by a process similar to petrification. Note that this mineralized dentine is not vital, nor does it increase in volume and fill the cavity. When scraped with a steel instrument it frequently takes on a density like very hard wood and occasionally takes even a glassy surface.
Note he's quite clear that the cavities are not cured, but that dentine remineralizes over them. this is made even more clear by the preceding and following paragraphs.
Posts: 128 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:I still honestly don't understand the issues you have with steven
My big issue is that the underlying understanding of science exhibited and advocated by steven leads people to stop seeking evidence-based treatment for cancer and check in to a vegan treatment center.
People die because of this (in general - I'm not laying any deaths at steven's door in particular), and the whole "pharmaceutical conspiracy" issue is used to convince people who otherwise would not be convinced.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I offer a more moderate view. The things that steven discusses are fascinating (to me) anecdotes that get filed away in my brain for later in case I come across something similar somewhere else, but I don't turn a deaf ear to what science and medicine is saying.
I figure certain kinds of people are predisposed in their nature and experiences to go against conventional medicine. If it isn't steven, it will be someone else they listen to. They are looking for it. The arguments for medical wisdom are abundant and if they are already being ignored, further arguments here may not be effective either.
I guess what I'm saying is that I am not personally concerned about steven leading anyone astray. I understand that others are. I'm sorry about that, and I am especially sorry because of the hurtful words that have come out of the conflict. I don't think it is worth it, and I truly wish that could be avoided.
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Interestingly, there have been dozens of studies on which people choose varieties of CAM ("complementary and alternative medicine") and what reasons they give for that choice. There are some pretty consistent findings. There is also a national database collecting information on negative (and positive) outcomes for CAM users. I didn't know if anyone was unaware of these, or whether such information would be useful to the discussion.
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I never suggested people shouldn't get chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Both are proven to work in at least some cases. I suggest using whatever works. I suspect Dag knows all this, though.
Dag, what are your motivations for this? Are you trying to make sure people get the best of both worlds, or are you still sore at me for nailing the Catholic church last year on the Overpopulation thread?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I never suggested people shouldn't get chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Both are proven to work in at least some cases. I suggest using whatever works. I suspect Dag knows all this, though.
I don't doubt you think people should use whatever works. I think your standards for determining what works are wrong and potentially dangerous.
quote:Dag, what are your motivations for this? Are you trying to make sure people get the best of both worlds, or are you still sore at me for nailing the Catholic church last year on the Overpopulation thread?
My motivations are apparent on the surface of my posts in this thread.
What are your motivations here?
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I only accuse you of this motivation because I can't imagine putting this much energy into anything for any reason other than religion.
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Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean Dags wouldn't. Also, does this mean you view this thread (and those that came before it) as a religious crusade?
Interesting that you feel the need to assign motivations in any case. No longer able to stick with the actual issues?
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I only accuse you of this motivation because I can't imagine putting this much energy into anything for any reason other than religion.
The first sentence of the post you're responding to isn't good enough?
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OK, well, maybe I misinterpreted your attitude with me last year. I thought you were defending your church.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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If you want to discuss my motivations in this thread, we can. If you want to argue Dr. Price's work point-by-point, we can. I think it would be more productive for you to read the 5 chapters I have suggested, then make up your mind about what you want to do.
However, you may have just wanted some more clarity on how I felt about Western medical treatments, which is understandable, perhaps.
The other thread I was referring to was the "overpopulation" thread, which I, apparently, have deleted. I will admit I may have done some counter-productive things in that thread. Mea culpa, etc.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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on another subject, check your email, banna.
As far as selective-element electrodes go, I can see using that once you're testing extremely specific things.
Right now I'm working on putting together a total hydroponic solution with my friend Evan Folds. It's going to include an organic N-P-K liquid nutrient, seawater precipitate, a biodynamic compost preparation, and probably oyster shell and/or fish bones that have been dissolved and re-precipitated. It may also include green leaf juices, although that may have to be added on site because they are perishable.
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I prefer to use General Hydroponics nutrient solutions, which have been designed by PhD's from UC Davis, and were used to grow wheat hydroponically.
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And don't expect an e-mail answer from me any time soon. Those who actually need to communicate with me get my work e-mail address and the one I use on forums is basically a throw away account that I check about once a month.
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Beverly, that's why, among many other reasons, I have a problem with steven. He is advocating Price as his personal religion and then insults people when they don't convert. You know that's a lousy tactic.
Appeasement is not always the most virtuous tact to take.
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I don't know where you got "appeasement" out of "validation", Kat. They aren't the same thing.
We all know that the best way to deal with trollish behavior is to ignore it. Insults beget insults. If someone shows repeatedly that they can't be civil, they ought to be ignored and reported. Don't engage them in conversation. I don't like the insulting behavior either, I just prefer a different way of dealing with it. And appeasement isn't what I'd call it.
I am giving steven some berth because I haven't personally seen enough to draw my own conclusion. If steven shows that he isn't worth engaging in conversation, then I won't, even if I find what he has to say interesting. You have had time to draw your own conclusion, I need time to draw mine.
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Well done, Steven! I don't know why you even think you need anyone's help. Sounds like you have everything in control here. I'd be surprised if anyone eats another processed food product after this thread. Keep up the good work!
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Chris, you're a pretty clever guy, and you have an interesting site www.cholesterol-and-health.com for those that don't know. I'd certainly be very interested to hear you respond to some of the questions put forth here regarding the scientific merit of Dr. Price's research methods in the context of modern scientific rigor.
personally I find the anecdotal tales fascinating for storytelling purposes/traditions and the value of the book as a whole to lean more towards anthropology than health. In terms of health I don't find the presentation of material in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration to be balanced or consistent (selection bias and confounding factors, oy!) to draw any useful conclusions other than the most vague one, (that various peoples across the globe sometimes experienced more ill health after being introduced to industrialized food stuffs).
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This thread is like pirate treasure, unearthed after so long.
It is full of traditional pirate treasure! Like Doubloons! and pieces of eight! and specious reasoning!Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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It's also like the scene in POTC3 when Jack is talking to multiple versions of himself. Chris Masterjohn is the steven swabbing the deck.
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