quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I didn't know the Jews were supposed to have killed the FSM and IPU. I really should keep better track of this stuff.
I've told you and told you, FlyingCow: there is no IPU. If he's pink, he isn't invisible, and if he's invisible, he isn't pink. <sigh>
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Some believe that all that breeding and sorting among the Jews was to produce Jesus Christ and that the Jews, like the Egyptians and Canaanites, have now served their purpose in God's plan, so they are on their own like the rest of us, trying to make the best world men can shape with the hand of the Savior to guide us.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: And none of us, nor any of our ancestors, did anything to your fictional deity.
(emphasis mine)
It always amazes me how Lisa can show such understanding and tolerance of others. She really is a model of how we should all follow the rules of our forum...
Posts: 409 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Characterizing it as "more than 100 years" is ridiculous. The Catholic Church didn't even start backing down from its anti-semitism until the 1960s.
Aha.
What about the rest of the Christian world that isn't Catholic? There's a pretty sizable chunk that doesn't fit in your definition of Christian, and has NO ties (or scarce ties) to Catholocism.
quote:Do you think that nineteen centuries of viciousness evaporates because of 40 years of moderation?
Most Christians today do not recognize the Inquisition as part of "their" story. Furthermore, many Christians since Martin Luther don't recognize those atrocities as part of their story.
quote:When I hear Christians denying that it was anything but bad or mistaken people doing things that weren't justified by Christianity, it tells me that they're just trying to avoid the truth.
I've asked you specifically, and so has Dag and Rakeesh: provide evidence for your claim. MY understanding of Christianity doesn't justify committing genocide. In fact, MY understanding of Christianity actually harshly critisizes the people who murder Jews for being Jewish. Specifically.
You are mistaken about Christian beliefs, Lisa.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Silly Scott, don't you know that all Christians are the same? I have a hard time telling them apart, myself. Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: * "Pharisees and scribes, hypocrites". * The Jews' holy scriptures predicted a god/savior/messiah and they rejected him when he came * Jews (or at least Jewish leaders) were responsible for the murder of said god/savior/messiah
That do you?
No, actually. Those are not doctrines or a theology that calls for murder.
Your post isn't logical by the the widest, most liberal standards.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I'm in a good position cos i can call Lisa a liar and her deity a fictional one, though. So there Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:"Pharisees and scribes, hypocrites". The Jews' holy scriptures predicted a god/savior/messiah and they rejected him when he came Jews (or at least Jewish leaders) were responsible for the murder of said god/savior/messiah That do you?
No. None of those "murdered" any Jews. They might have been used in a chain of justification that resulted in such murders. That's an entirely different thing altogether, since the rest of the chain would be necessary to support your claim.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: You mean the Canaanites? Sure I will. I'm proud of it. God told us to destroy them, and we did. The only thing we did wrong was in not completing the job fast enough, and we paid the price for that.
I'm consistent, you see. Now, you can say that God told the Inquisition to burn Jews alive. If you do that, then I say it's a lie, or that any religious claim that God commanded any such thing is blasphemy.
Wow. This is bizarre. So, hypothetically, if the Holocaust *was* ordered by God, there would be nothing wrong with it? To reiterate, genocide is not inherently bad, just genocide not-sanctioned by God?
With apologies to Dag, perhaps another comparison to children is in order link :
quote: "Tamarin [an Israeli psychologist] presented to more than a thousand Israeli schoolchildren, aged between eight and fourteen, the account of the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua: Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction...But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.'...Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and assess, with the edge of the sword...And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
Tamarin then asked the children a simple moral question: 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted righty or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval), B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarized: 66 per cent gave total approval and 26 per cent gave total dissaproval, with rather fewer (8 per cent) in the middle with partial approval. Here are three typical answers from the total approval (A) group:
In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyim.
In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.
Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth." (pp 255-256)
Continuing on a little further:
"Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by 'a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago'. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7 per cent approved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of children agreed with the moral judgements that most modern humans would share. Joshua's action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view. And the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it." (p 257)
posted
So it's not the theology of modern Christianity...but it was the theology of LOTS of European Christianity for, mmmm, a thousand years or so.
I suppose we can quibble about the definition of "theology." In this case, I'm referring to actions and attitudes of the religious elite and followers of a religion that followed from their interpretation of Scripture.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
As long as we remain constrained to this one world, so long as some fraction of the population breeds unchecked by responsibility with the goal of achieving superior numbers to sieze political control, we face the certainty that genocide will remain on the table, we will live to see it tried again.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Mucus, that's terrifying, but I'm not surprised.
Lisa thinks that being unrighteous in one area is worth it if it makes one think they are more righteous in other areas. This applies on both a micro and macro scale.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: What about the rest of the Christian world that isn't Catholic? There's a pretty sizable chunk that doesn't fit in your definition of Christian, and has NO ties (or scarce ties) to Catholocism.
A) The largest organised religion is Catholic B) Catholicism is the largest Christian church, so even if all other Christians did not suffer from the same problem...Lisa is still well justified in saying that many Christians suffer from a theology that inherently is aggressive towards Jews C) They have a pretty big tie, the *Bible*.
quote:Most Christians today do not recognize the Inquisition as part of "their" story.
As I said, most Christians today ( link ) are Catholic, hence the Inquisition is part of most of their stories regardless of whether they like it or not.
Counter Bean: What? What is your game/dysfunction?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Mucus, that's terrifying, but I'm not surprised.
Lisa thinks that being unrighteous in one area is worth it if it makes one think they are more righteous in other areas. This applies on both a micro and macro scale.
It's funny, but I don't even know if I should say "No, Lisa doesn't think any such thing", or "I sure do". Because your statement is so vague and bereft of context as to lack any meaning whatsoever. It's also unclear, just as a sentence. What, for example, would be a case of being unrighteous in one area, which would make one think they are more righteous in other areas? Does that even make sense?
posted
Mucus, Counter Bean is a critter who used to post as Bean Counter. He's a fundamentalist and a politically right-wing fanatic. He's kind of fun to have around, though, just for the entertainment value.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I am the opposite of this Bean Counter, I am Counter Bean!
As for my posting style, as you can see I correctly anticipated the 'Lisa' position and took it to show the ridiculousness of it in advance, then I stated the truth mixed with irony, Nobody knows what Europe would look like today demographically without WW II and the Holocaust, we have a situation to deal with and anything else is idle speculation that is useful only in how amusing it is, so my speculations are meant to be amusing, mostly to me, since it is still a blizzard outside.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Lisa: I think what others object to is your repeated assertion that the theology exists that states that Christians ought to kill Jews PERIOD.
Yes I believe that Jewish people setup Christ to be crucified.
Yes I believe the Jewish leaders accepted the responsibility for killing Jesus.
Yes I believe God punished the Jews for killing the messiah.
Yes I believe the Jews will continue to endure hardship until they acknowledge that Jesus is their true messiah.
BUT
I do not believe that God has required that anybody kill or molest the Jews as a requisite for righteousness.
There are more then enough wicked people around that can be influenced to hurt the Jews without God doing anything.
There are no scriptures that request that Christians, by force, persuade the Jews to consider a recourse.
I do not believe the Jews owe ME or anyone else (save perhaps Jesus himself) an apology, Jesus has not asked that I be offended on his behalf until he gets one.
None of those beliefs cause me to think that Jews are living in sin or wicked. I see them exactly the same way I see anybody of any other religion; mistaken. It would be incredibly wrong of me to wish ill of those I disagree with across the board.
Lisa, from what I can tell I think you are an intelligent but more importantly good person. Surely you can understand that even, "God's chosen people" can foolishly commit terrible atrocities and fool themselves into believing it is God's will, no matter how specific the scriptures or oral traditions are.
If we take the Old Testament at face value, it is rife with this situation.
Christians that pretend Christianity is impervious to adulterations and heretical teachings that can gain general acceptance of a society are blind to history.
But more importantly no matter what evil is committed in the name of God, it in no way shape or form alters what God actually said to us.
As it stands, the Bible lacks a single passage calling for us to attack and molest or destroy any other human being.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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And wouldn't God prefer we destroy the witch via converting her through sound reasoning rather then just killing her right off?
But lets say there was a baby eating witch in a Christian society, we would not be justified in doing anything until she posed a threat to the lives of those in that society.
Not only that, could you define what constitutes a "witch?"
And beyond that, you are quoting Law of Moses to me which is completely pointless as Jesus fulfilled it over back in 33AD approx.
"As it stands, the Bible lacks a single passage calling for us to attack and molest or destroy any other human being."
The quotation still stands.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I'm sad to say I think CB is being somewhat fair. For as out there as Lisa is, he's matching her, just on the other end of the spectrum.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ew You put ketchup on popcorn? GROSS!
No. The ketchup can be eaten either as a side, or like a dip for the popcorn. If you put it on the popcorn, it would just get soggy, and that WOULD be gross.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Secondly, the Jews were almost unique in the efficiency (for want of a better word) used against them. The Nazis hated and killed Poles and homosexuals, but they never seemed in a great hurry to totaly exterminate them. However, they were in a hurry to destroy two groups: the Jews and the Roma. Of all the groups, those two had the longest history of being opressed. They were also minorities, unlike say Poles. They were also more indetifiable than Gays or political dissidents.
Thirdly, both Jews and Christians have a long history of religious violence, the Christian violence being rather more recent. Almost all members of both groups now reject the theology that led to such violence.
Fourthly, there is no serious question about rather Jesus existed. If by "fictional deity," Lisa means that his divinity is fictitous, I will not arue with her.
Finaly, Jesus was born and died a Jew. He came from a rich tradition of Jewish thought and (suposidly) from the Jewish royal line. His disciples were Jewish, so were the authors of the Greek scriptures. There can be nothing anti-Semetic about their works: they were Jews!
I have been reading Hans Küng's On Being a Christian recently, and he makes a very good argument that Christianity can only be understood by analyzing Jesus's works in the context of first century Judea and in the context of Judaism.
posted
The trouble with "Never Forgetting" the Holocaust is that people can remember it, yet still find some excuse why their particular hatred is more valid than the Nazis' hatred. People often remember history yet refuse to apply the lessons it offers to their own ignorance. Genocide will probably happen again and again, and each time the guilty party will claim "We are not like the Nazis. Our genocide truly is necessary!" And each time they will be wrong.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
And the problem with "Never again" is that it seems to have come to mean "never again will a German dictator with a funny moustache murder millions of Jews." At least, not yet. We knew about the Rwanda genocide as it was happening. Those in charge of preventing such things (UN peacekeeping forces) withdrew under orders from their head. The US has a law requiring us to intervene in cases of genocide -- OK, like we'd do that in Tibet -- so the President was careful not to say "genocide" in public until it was over. (The WH did use it on internal correspondence.)
Sometimes there's some intervention, as with Darfur, Bosnia (stupid intervention, but still), Kosovo. We should give ourselves some credit, I suppose.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Sorry I've been away from the computer/Hatrack for so long (almost a whole day!), or I would have maybe commented on this long enough ago that it didn't need to be locked now.
It's possible to disagree with someone else or someone else's religion without disrespect, and definitely without mockery.
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