quote:I think part of the reason I like people who are passionate about something - anything - is because they are willing to devote their whole self to something other than their self.
I think you're confusing pride with selfishness, in the same way we've been confusing submissiveness with humility and assertiveness with ego. They're not the same thing, and I very strongly believe that attempts to conflate these very different attributes are harmful.
In fact, your definition of "humility" here seems especially odd, since you're saying that people who are passionate about things are less selfish -- and, given the context, presumably more humble. In my experience, many of the people who are most passionate about their causes, interests and hobbies are also the least humble.
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I didn't define humility. I went from humility to a specific case of pride.
There are extremes on either end, but I'm not interested in using the extremes as examples for the whole. On the whole, people who care about themselves more than anything are more self-centered and less pleasant as human beings than people who care about something other than themselves.
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But you didn't. You actually contrasted selfishness with fanboyism. Self-obsession is not pride; self-denial is not humility. And I don't think the possession of external interests really speaks to or correlates with either.
I'll freely agree that people who are obsessed exclusively with their own happiness are less pleasant for others to be around. I don't see how that relates to "humility" at all, though.
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Are they less pleasant to us because their self-centeredness conflicts with our own self-centeredness?
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<Note: this post harkens back to the first page where folks were speaking about generalities, and not the second page where we've gone on to defining self-centeredness, etc. *sigh* You all type and post too fast for me. What a humbling admission. *wicked grin*>
And of course, generalizations about any group of people or cultures are just that -- generalizations -- and rarely hold true across the spectrum, and can be easily argued against.
*grin* Generally speaking, the good 'ole USA makes a lot of generalizations about other groups of people and then promptly pours concrete on and around those generalizations and cements them into ideologies and beliefs.
I'm not sure that's at all helpful as a group of people.
From an individual point of view, Annie, it's a good reminder to give the other side a respectful hearing and attention. Who knows -- something could be learned, neh?
But submission? I don't buy that, especially when it comes out of the Biblical interpretations that then do great harm to relationships. "Wives submit to your husbands, slaves submit to your masters, children submit to your parents . . . "
Well, maybe the child-parent paradigm can hold . . . *grin*
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I find it useful to remember that something discussed in the abstract doesn't necessarily translate well into advice for a particular individual, at least not directly.
Even if humility is (in general) a virtue, some given individual may not be of the personality and habits that may make a reminder of this useful -- rather, he or she may be someone with excessive anxiety for such a reminder would provoke an unhealthy reaction. Similar problems can arise in the opposite case.
When discussions about this topic occur in the abstract and then rebuttals are made in the personal and particular, I'm often reminded about how differently the abstract plays out in individual human contexts.
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Tom, you are making a mistake in conflating fanboyism with devotion to something outside of oneselves.
You are also making a mistake about humility - you even put it in scare quotes. True humility isn't forced and it isn't false.
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quote:Tom, you are making a mistake in conflating fanboyism with devotion to something outside of oneselves.
The contrast you specifically drew was between people who were not humble and people who were interested in "something - anything" other than themselves. If you'd like to amend your observation to say that humble people are those who're interested in "something - anything," as long as that thing is important and not, say, a TV show, I'm okay with that, too.
quote:You are also making a mistake about humility - you even put it in scare quotes. True humility isn't forced and it isn't false.
I'm not putting it in scare quotes. I'm putting it in quotes, period, to indicate the use of a specific definition of "humility" -- or not, as the case may be. Your definition, for example, seems very different from Shan's, and there's not a lot of overlap with Annie's, either.
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quote:Even if humility is (in general) a virtue...
See, that's specifically what I don't grant. I think people take it for granted because it's commonly said that it's a virtue, but it's not. Perspective is a virtue, and humility is one of many tools that can help achieve perspective.
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quote:Don't you think it's possible for a person to remain modest yet could appropriately seize the good opportunities to show his or her abilities?
I hope so That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
And Euripides, I know exactly what you mean. The humility is very often just surface. But it's cute, really. I love when you're eating something a cute little obachan cooked for you and you rave about how delicious it is and she says "aa sou? oishii?" with a little twinkle in her eyes. Everyone does love to be praised, no matter what the cultural convention for accepting praise. This probably explains the popularity of the Japanese Compliment Game. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Even if humility is (in general) a virtue...
See, that's specifically what I don't grant.
You may be confusing me asserting a claim with me putting forth the hypothetical clause of a conterfactual conditional.
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I know. I was actually worried that you'd think I was arguing with you on that point. But since my concern is precisely how commonly it is said that humility is a virtue without any analysis of the virtue inherent in humility (if any), I couldn't let that one pass unremarked-upon. *grin*
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I know. I was actually worried that you'd think I was arguing with you on that point. But since my concern is precisely how commonly it is said that humility is a virtue without any analysis of the virtue inherent in humility (if any), I couldn't let that one pass unremarked-upon. *grin*
Oh, for sure. I'm one of the people who had to work for years -- literally -- even merely to make sense of the idea that humility (as the term was explained and presented by example to me) could bring about bitterness and ill in the world. That it could be used as a very effective weapon.
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I actually worry about how much we teach that selflessness is inherently virtuous, too, despite the fact that it clearly isn't. I think it causes our society a lot of cognitive dissonance.
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I don't think it is clearly not a virtue. You may think it is not a virtue, but it isn't clear or obvious. There is a definite arguement that it is.
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I think Tom is claiming that it is clearly not inherently a virtue, if that makes a difference. That is, there are some contexts in which it* isn't.
*"it" being the behaviors and attitudes of the virtue, though of course one could define the virtue in such a way as to exclude improper usage -- but that fails to capture the concept in actual use (I think)
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quote:I think Tom is claiming that it is clearly not inherently a virtue, if that makes a difference. That is, there are some contexts in which it* isn't.
If this is what Tom is saying (and I agree he is), then I agree with Tom. There are some situations where behaving in a humble manner is not in fact virtuous.
But then again, can't that be said of all the things we call virtues? Doesn't that word depend entirely on context?
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If you're asking whether I think the word "virtue" -- often used to mean something that we should aspire to as an end in itself, something that is inherently a good thing -- is often applied to things which are not actually virtues in that sense, my answer is "yes."
I do think there ARE virtues, things which are inherently good for a given definition of "good," things that should be aspirational goals in and of themselves. I also believe that there are vices, things which are inherently bad, things that should be avoided regardless of context. I do not think humility is a virtue by this definition any more than I believe that sexual promiscuity is a vice.
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I think we're all talking about 20 separate concepts/ways of behaving and calling them all humility.
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Well, yeah. Christ is "humble" despite announcing that He's God because He submits to God; someone else is "humble" because they refuse to admit that they play the piano well; someone else is "humble" because he cares about other people; etc. One of my problems with the promotion of "humility" is that it's somehow applied to all these blanket situations, when in reality there are more specific terms which better describe each. Consider the use of the word "modest," which is profoundly broken.
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I use "modest" fairly functionally. But I don't think I use it with its typical self-deprecating connotation.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: This whole topic needs some reconsidering imho. It's just more name calling and generalizing about our culture, when clearly there are a million holes in your theory and you don't even seem to be very clear on what you mean. I am willing to bet that an Asian would would have a different view of our culture than you do, viewing it from your return- they might be able to assign some more neutral reasons for the ways we behave.
That seems rather harsh. I *am* Asian and I think her view is on the whole pretty correct. It is a generalization, but it does seem to be correct in the majority of cases.
In fact, at my university, they offer courses on interview skills. Due to the high Asian population, they specifically gave some advice to Asians saying that they had to be more aggressive and outgoing (and reduce any self-deprecation) in order to compete.
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quote:But I don't think I use it with its typical self-deprecating connotation.
Consider the use of "modest" when seeking to describe, say, a "modest" dress -- as opposed to saying something like "Annie modestly declined the award." The word is strained to its breaking point.
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Tom, You're arguing semantics which is banal. English words commonly have numerous meanings. Take for example the word cleave which means both to stick together and to cut apart. Yet somehow or another the word hasn't broken yet.
We get around these weaknesses in our language by understanding context. Often the context is a specialized field where a more precise word is chosen or a common word is given a more precise definition.
Since Annie has recently returned from an LDS mission. I assume that the context in which she uses the word "humility" is from the specialized LDS meaning of the word. While the term "humility" may be frequently used to describe attitudes that are not inherently virtuous, within the LDS those attitudes are not true humility but something else. I would like to explain to you what humility means in the LDS context. Since you want to argue semantics, I'll give it a different name "demut" (from the german). For the purposes of this discussion, "demut" is the word I choose to mean the following and which is what I as an LDS individual understand as the virtue "humility".
1. A clear understanding of the limitations of ones own knowledge and wisdom.
2. A clear understanding of the limitations of ones own skills in comparisons to the ideal or perfect.
3. A willingness to publicly confess ones own limitations, mistakes and failings.
4. A willingness to learn from (and when appropriate submit to) those who are more knowledgeble, wise or skillful than ourselves.
"demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
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quote:Tom, You're arguing semantics which is banal.
Except that it's not. Very often we see people confusing people who do not wear "modest" clothing with people who lack "modesty," and then conflating the two attributes. Rarely do we see people accidentally confusing the uses of "cleave;" we do, however, see people promoting multiple definitions of "humility" in the same context and without making any attempt to distinguish between them.
Katie, for example, speaks of "pride" as an ugly thing that's opposed to "humility" -- but means by it something completely different. And of course the Japanese Compliment Game is something altogether different still.
If this were merely an irrelevant issue of semantics, it wouldn't be a problem. But people see nothing wrong with condemning "pride" and vaunting "humility" without establishing which sort of pride and/or which sort of humility they're talking about, and this gets propagated through the entire society. Is submission a virtue? Is a reluctance to acknowledge your strengths a virtue?
quote:"Demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
I was with you up to this point, and then you lost me. Up to here, I was perfectly in accord with your attempt to narrowly define the word; I personally still prefer "perspective" to "humility" to describe the first two, and "honesty" to describe the second two, but it's no big deal.
But then we butted up against your definition of "virtue." "Demut" may indeed be the first step towards improvement of any kind -- although, to be honest, I doubt it; I think there are some people and some situations for which it might be inappropriate -- but if that's why it's good, it's not a virtue. It's merely a mechanism by which actual virtue is achieved. I think the distinction is important -- semiotic, not merely semantic, if you will.
Humility for its own sake -- even if you're defining humility to mean "a willingness to improve" -- is still merely a means to an end: namely, improvement.
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Welcome, Dusty! Thanks for sharing.
I have to admit to a huge curiosity over whether you're still there, did you grow up there, that sort of thing, but I'll refrain from giving you the third degree. Of course, you could always volunteer the information... You know, in an intro thread or something.
Thank you for your warm welcome, Quidscribis.
"The third degree" reminds me of Jack Bauer in 24, lol, but I guess I'm not as tough as he is, so I'm gonna tell you everything about myself.
Let me start from your question, yeah I'm still in China and actually I've never left my country. I'm a graduate student majoring in translation, which deals with both translation&interpretation practice and theory studies. I like my major but I'm always unconfident about my English level. This might be the very thing people are discussing here, the "look at me" attitude or the contrary, for when sometimes certain demanding job arrives, I wouldn't help but show a "don't look at me" attitude. lol.
Umm, what else about myself? See, here come the cultural differences again, I don't think I'd say enough about myself except being forced, not as far as by "the third degree" though. lol.
Anyway it's wonderful that I've found a cozy and active forum here. I'm new but I wish I could stay long and make friends with you guys, to learn and to share.
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Despite the scare quotes, people who wear modest clothing DO lack modesty according to at least one definition of the word. To deny it is to play games with semantics.
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Dusty, I don't know how your speaking and understanding skills are, but your writing is indistinguishable from that of a native speaker.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Dusty, I don't know how your speaking and understanding skills are, but your writing is indistinguishable from that of a native speaker.
My reaction exactly.
Welcome to Hatrack, Dusty. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I remind you again that I'm using "scare quotes" not to call the definition of the word into doubt, but to indicate that we're specifically discussing the definition of the word itself. I just used scare quotes around "scare quotes" for the normal reason, though. Just so we're clear. *grin*
And, yes, one definition of "modest" does include "wears clothing which is deliberately non-provocative." This is, however, not a definition which by any stretch of the imagination can be conflated with "virtuous;" it simply piggybacks on other, more "virtuous" definitions of the word to steal their connotations.
Hit Dictionary.com to see the extremely hideous fruit of this definition of "modesty," the third in their list: "having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc." In itself, this seems harmless. A moment's thought, though, leads inevitably to the question: who gets to decide what's decent? What's particularly interesting is that in their discussion of synonyms, it's specifically this third definition which is said to be roughly synonymous with "pure" or "virtuous:" "Modest implies a becoming shyness, sobriety, and proper behavior."
Look at that again. Purity and virtue are here equated with "a becoming shyness" and "proper behavior" through what I can only suppose is the magic of banal semantics. *grin*
It's absolutely insidious. Leaving aside the sexism that usually dogs "modest," since in fairness there's no requirement that the word only be applied to women despite its unequal usage in practice, I have very real disagreements with the assertion that "purity" means "proper," or that "shyness" is "becoming," much less "virtuous." (Edit: if you want to see what I mean by sexism, try Googling "modest woman" versus "modest man." Don't pay attention to the number of hits, but look instead at the nature of the hits. Overwhelmingly, "modest" when used to describe women is equated with a lack of open sexuality and/or voluntary submissiveness; "modest" when used to describe a man is normally found in a context in which he is being lauded for his accomplishments.)
That it's an implied assertion, rather than an openly stated one, makes it all the harder to uproot.
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Where in China are you? I'm trying to save money to visit my friend in her hometown of Xian. Anywhere else you recommend?
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Dusty - your English is impeccable!
Where in China are you? I'm trying to save money to visit my friend in her hometown of Xian. Anywhere else you recommend?
Thank you so much, Noemon, rivka and Annie, for your kindness and hospitality.
Annie, it's wonderful to know that you are planning to visit China! I'm now in Chongqing, a municipality in southwestern China, and my hometown is in the Northeast. I'd be glad to make a detailed introduction of these two places if you are interested, but first I'll start with the prior recommendations.
There are two places on my mind that I think are especially worth visiting. One is, of course, Beijing, the capital of China, where you will find the Forbidden City, the Great Wall, the Summer Palace and so on. I believe anyone interested in Chinese history and culture would have a rewarding and enjoyable tour there. Besides, people in Beijing are extremely hospitable, as you know the 2008 Olympic Games will be held there, everybody is enthusiastic about welcoming foreign guests, I bet you'd feel at home when you are there.
The second place is Suzhou, known as the Oriental Venice, in Zhejiang province on the east coast of China. This water town is famous for its elegant and exquisite gardens whose history could be traced back to more than 2000 years ago. I've been there once and I was absolutely in love with that tranquil place. Suzhou is also well known for its products of silk and embroideries, which are much favored by tourists and are often bought as gifts for families and friends.
As you know, like American, China is also a country with a vast territory, therefore there are bound to be many more places that are waiting for your visit with their own charm and characteristics. If you've got enough time, you can also choose among places like...say, Tibet, the Yellow Mountains in Anhui province, Jiuzhaigou in Sichuan provice (near Chongqing), Lijiang in Yunan province, to name but a few, according to your own interest.
I know that America is a country endowed with countless magnificent landscapes, so what I recommended above may have intentionally avoided those you might find a little repetitive from what you are familiar with. Beijing and Suzhou exhibit things very Chinese, I bet you'll like it there.
Here are some websites about traveling in China, wish they would be helpful to your future visit to my country.
Another tip, there are three cities you may avoid visiting in summer, Chongqing (yeah that's where I am), Nanjing and Wuhan, bcz it could be real hot then that you wouldn't be able to go anywhere in day time.
Please feel free to ask if you have any other questions, I'd be so glad if I could be of any help to you.
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About modesty, here's sth I'd like to share with you.
In China when someone tries too hard to deny something he or she is capable of, like in the case when the Japanese lady eschews from playing the piano in public, people would half jokingly push on "Being too modest is no different from being haughty." I don't know if you'd agree but in China there's a saying which goes like "Things turn into their opposites when they reach the extreme."
This saying is like a warning which has been said by so many people for so many times that people's attitude has somehow changed. For example, nowadays when you ask a kid "how are you getting on with you school work?" most probably the kid (if he or she is an average pupil) would answer "Not bad." which might seem perfectly appropriate to you but which would annoy the kid's parents who would then blame the kid, "How well are you doing indeed that you think it's not bad?"
I don't know if my words bare the implication clearly or not, but the parents who are of the former generation apparently are more affected by the modest way of thinking but not the kids any more.
What I'm trying to say here is that, modesty indeed needs to be judged within certain context, and that context is different from generation to generation, country to country, occasion to occasion.
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quote:Let me start from your question, yeah I'm still in China and actually I've never left my country. I'm a graduate student majoring in translation, which deals with both translation&interpretation practice and theory studies. I like my major but I'm always unconfident about my English level.
From what you're demonstrating here, you have no reason to lack confidence in your English. That was what confused me, actually - from what you said, it sounded like you grew up in China, but the way you wrote it was so much like a native English speaker (or, really, far far better than most), that it didn't quite make sense. But now that I see you're in translation, it makes sense - you have to be really good to do that.
quote:Anyway it's wonderful that I've found a cozy and active forum here. I'm new but I wish I could stay long and make friends with you guys, to learn and to share.
Oh please, do stay! We'll play nice, honest we will! Or, um, most of us anyway... Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
Wrong ocean, but you could buy Sealand.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If this were merely an irrelevant issue of semantics, it wouldn't be a problem. But people see nothing wrong with condemning "pride" and vaunting "humility" without establishing which sort of pride and/or which sort of humility they're talking about, and this gets propagated through the entire society. Is submission a virtue? Is a reluctance to acknowledge your strengths a virtue?
Tom, you seem to be arguing that "humility" isn't a virtue because there are too many different but easily confused definitions of the word. Or perhaps you are arguing that its wrong to encourage "humility" because it is too easily confused with things that are not virtuous. If so, I would note that exactly the same observation can be made about "love". Would you argue that its wrong to encourage "love" because "love" can easily be confused with destructive attitudes and behaviors? "Justice" also has multiple definitions that are easily conflated and confused. Would you argue that it is wrong to promote "justice" because someone might confuse it with revenge?
quote:
quote:"Demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
I was with you up to this point, and then you lost me. Up to here, I was perfectly in accord with your attempt to narrowly define the word; I personally still prefer "perspective" to "humility" to describe the first two, and "honesty" to describe the second two, but it's no big deal.
First, I don't see that "honesty" and "perspective" are any less prone to misunderstanding than "humility". I seen people justify "cruelty" in the name of honesty and negligence in the name of "perspective". Second, I don't see how my fourth point falls under any common definition of honesty. It might be called teachability, but that term could be understood to mean posessing inherent talents which is not even close to what I mean. It might be called submission, but that also has connotations which are not accurate.
Finally, what I gave wasn't intended as four different definitions of "demut". It was four essential aspects of "demut". If you have anyone of these but not the others, it isn't "demut". For example, one could understand the limitation of their own knowledge but still believe that no one else could teach them anything. That wouldn't be "demut".
quote:But then we butted up against your definition of "virtue." "Demut" may indeed be the first step towards improvement of any kind -- although, to be honest, I doubt it; I think there are some people and some situations for which it might be inappropriate -- but if that's why it's good, it's not a virtue. It's merely a mechanism by which actual virtue is achieved. I think the distinction is important -- semiotic, not merely semantic, if you will.
Humility for its own sake -- even if you're defining humility to mean "a willingness to improve" -- is still merely a means to an end: namely, improvement. [/QB]
You ask people to defend why "humility" should be considered a virtue and yet maintain that if any reason is given, that automatically disqualifies it as a virtue. You argue that "humility" isn't a virtue because it has negative consequences. If you can identify a non-virtue by its effects, how can you then argue that a virtue can not be identified by its effects.
I thought quite hard before including that final statement because it is not fully accurate. I believe that "demut" is a virtue of first estate; i.e. desirable as an end in and of itself. But its pointless to argue about whether something is a virtue of first estate because any argument either for or against belies the underlying presumption. "Demut" is, however, also a virtue of second estate because it essential to the pursuit of other virtues.
Finally, I agree with you that submission if not necessarily a good thing, but "submission to a higher authority" is a good thing. And I should add that by "higher authority", I do not simple mean an authority that has more power or knowledge but one that also has "moral authority" by virtue of benevolence.
If Sophie had an ear infection, would you want her to submit to you and take her antibiotics even if they taste icky? Why? Not simply because you have a better understand that Sophie of why she needs the medicine and what it will do. Not simply because, if need be you can wrestle her to the ground and force her to take it or the power to punish her if she does not submit. But primarily because you love her and have her best interests in mind. You wouldn't ask her to drink lye. She should submit to you because you are a true "higher authority" who both knows more than she does and is deeply concerned for her well being.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Don't you think it's possible for a person to remain modest yet could appropriately seize the good opportunities to show his or her abilities?
I hope so That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
And Euripides, I know exactly what you mean. The humility is very often just surface. But it's cute, really. I love when you're eating something a cute little obachan cooked for you and you rave about how delicious it is and she says "aa sou? oishii?" with a little twinkle in her eyes. Everyone does love to be praised, no matter what the cultural convention for accepting praise. This probably explains the popularity of the Japanese Compliment Game.
You can thank the Chinese for The Compliment Game, but the folks in Japan definitely have their own twist.
Dusty: What province are you from/currently living in? I might be heading to Tibet this summer on a biking trip with my father. It's been 1.5 years since I've been to China and frankly it feels like a decade. I too am quite impressed with your command of the English language, your English is certainly more fluent then my Chinese Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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That's very sweet of you, quidscribis. lol.
Blackblade, I'm from Liaoning province and am now in Chongqing which is a municipality directly under the control of the central government. Chongqing used to belong to Sichuan province which borders upon Tibet. It's kinda close.
Tibet is always a most enchanting and breathtaking place, and it really thrills me to know that you are going to have the trip by bike! It must be different to ride a bike on the altiplano, lol, but I bet the experience would be well worth the effort that you are gonna make.
It's great to know that you can speak Chinese, how long have you been learning it? Some say that Chinese is one of the most difficult languages in the world, and I just think it cool for any foreign friend to speak it. Once I saw a Chinese speech contest on TV for overseas students, and students from the US, Canada, Australia, the UK, Japan, Korea and Vietnam (there must be other countries) participated in it and they really did an excellent job. Anyway, it's just cool.
Wish you a pleasant trip to Tibet, and, 旅行愉快, 一帆风顺! lv xing yu kuai, yi fan feng shun. Posts: 8 | Registered: Mar 2007
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That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Thanks for sharing. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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