posted
The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Do yankees get a lame Southerner joke free with every mocha latte?
It's not that simple, MightCow. While there are certainly racists aplenty in the South who think that way about the Civil War, lots of us have more complicated feelings.
I and other Southerners feel shame about the South's history of slavery while resenting the brutality of the Union Army during the war and during Reconstruction. My home town, Atlanta, was burned to the ground. That's not something you think of lightly. By the way, the North only gave up slavery gradually, stste by state, year by year, well into the 19th century. It's not like the pre-Civil War North was a paragon of virtue on the slavery issue.
As for why the South is "so backward and behind the rest [of the US]", there are plenty of racists in the North who rant about urban blacks as well.
Economically, there was a conscious effort by Northern capitalists and politicians to keep the South marginalized and unindustrialized decades after Reconstruction, on into the 20th century--in particular the Northern Railroad Conspiracy, which fixed freight prices unfairly and made it impossible for Southern factories to compete, even 75 years (approx.) AFTER Reconstruction ended.
quote:Discriminatory freight rates, the Justice [Douglas said in the SC's opinion] continued, may cause a blight no less serious than noxious gases in that they may arrest[p.760]the development of a State and put it at a competitive disadvantage. “Georgia as a representative of the public is complaining of [b]a wrong which, if proven, limits the opportunities of her people, shackles her industries, retards her development, and relegates her to an inferior economic position among her sister States. These are matters of grave public concern"[...] 324 U.S. 439 STATE OF GEORGIA v. PENNSYLVANIA R. CO. et al. No. 11 , Original. Argued and Submitted on Rules and Returns Jan. 2, 1945. Decided March 26, 1945. http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag45_user.html http://supreme.justia.com/us/324/439/
posted
I thought it was called the Rust Belt because what had once been a string of industries based on the production of and use of steel have all moved overseas, and giant factories are literally sitting around rusting.
I think once domestic manufacturing sorts itself out, you might see that migration level off, and maybe even reverse a little bit. A lot of the north has been retooling for the last 10 years (some more some less), and once (if they manage it) they get their new economies humming, there will be more jobs and thus I think you'll see a flight back to the north, especially as the gulf states become too expensive to live in for people looking for work.
I don't think those migrations south have anything to do with the south being a great place to live or being "right" about something in some way or form. I think it's because there are jobs down there, or at least the hope of jobs, and the world market is crushing a bit of the traditional northern manufacturing base. While they figure out what to do, it's a sad time to be a blue collar worker in the north.
Frankly, I don't think much about the south, because I don't view the south as some sort of separate state within a state I guess the way some people do. There's been hushed talk the last 100 years or so of the UP in Michigan seceding from us and being their own state with bits of Wisconsin thrown in. I don't see it happening, and not just because we give them a lot more money than they give us (which seems to be the reverse of Virginia).
I do however think areas should have the right to self determination to a degree, but I don't ever see Virginia's state legislature letting NoVa break away. At the very least, it'd have to be pretty embaressing to have ANOTHER state break away because they didn't like you .
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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As I've written before here on Hatrack, Phase IV of Dubya's secret plan is for Texas to divide into 5 states, as the bill of Annexation for Texas allows. This would quintuple Texas' senators from 2 to 10, allowing them to dominate the Senate.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Representative Tyrone Brooks, Democrat from Atlanta...said it's discouraging to see the Confederate month proposal moving through the legislative process..."Georgia needs to recognize and apologize and atone for its part in the slave trade, as Virginia has done..."
House Speaker Glenn Richardson, Republican from Hiram, said...he's "not sure what we ought to be apologizing for." Senate Majority Leader Tommie Williams, Republican from Lyons, agreed, saying "people shouldn't be held responsible for the sins of their fathers." [while advocating that folks should be strongly encouraged to celebrate&honor those sins]
quote:House Speaker Glenn Richardson, Republican from Hiram, said...he's "not sure what we ought to be apologizing for." Senate Majority Leader Tommie Williams, Republican from Lyons, agreed, saying "people shouldn't be held responsible for the sins of their fathers." [apparently advocating that Georgians should be strongly encouraged to celebrate those sins instead]
I don't see that as apparent at all, aspectre. Can you explain your position more clearly?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:As I've written before here on Hatrack, Phase IV of Dubya's secret plan is for Texas to divide into 5 states, as the bill of Annexation for Texas allows.
It's not something Texas can do - it would require Congressional action plus Texas's consent.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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If Illinois hasn't seceded from Chicago yet, I don't think we have to worry about Virginia splitting in two. The differences between VA and NoVA can't be any greater than those between Chicago and IL.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Re: racism in the South vs. racism in the North (or Midwest, in my case): I've lived in Georgia, and I've lived in Indiana. From what I've seen, there's much less racial diversity in the midwest, and consequentially, much more casual racism.
Also, before you start declaring an entire part of the country "backward and behind the rest," bear in mind that a) the south is actually growing and prospering much faster than much of the rest of the country, and b) many hatrackers live or are from the south. Try to control your stereotypes a bit better.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I've witnessed less casual racism from strangers visiting Atlanta than I have visiting Phoenix, for what that's worth (probably not much.)
In any case, I think racism has a lot more to do with community resources and dynamics, average age of the population, and how homogenous or otherwise the community is than where that community is located.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Well, let's look at the likelihood of the two possiblities stemming from Mighty Cow's remark:
1) An entire quarter of the country and millions of people are ignorant and backwards despite being Americans and as plugged into the general culture as everyone else.
2) Mighty Cow, one person, is speaking from ignorance.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I have to say, I can't believe some of the snobbery I've encountered here in DC. When something is to be characterized as dumb or stupid, the general shortcut is to describe them as coming from the midwest. Iowa, in particular. It's very off-putting. I can't believe how narrow and provincial people can be. (You know I'm talking about the people who use that as a shortcut, right?)
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I just read the article - I don't like the tone of it. Why are the quotes from Central Virginians only including the details that sound like it came off of HeeHaw? It's like quoting someone from DC on law enforcement and mentioning they are cooking chitlins for their family of four generations of only females.
quote:"How come they have the bad accents and we talk fine?" asked Casey Childress, a waitress at the Pigs R Us Bar-B-Que in Collinsville, a small town near Martinsville and the North Carolina border.
Because no one in Northern Virginia works as a waitress or eats ethnic food.
quote:Paige Grainger, a fundraiser for nonprofit groups, was born in Alexandria. Her mother was from Charlottesville. But, she explained to a group of working-mother friends gathered for a glass of red wine last week, she doesn't think of herself as a Virginian.
Right. Because no one in central Virginia either works or drinks wine.
And she struggles??!?! Oh, please. It's like hearing some white kid talk about how shameful it is be associated with the other black students. If that seems wrong and her quote doesn't, then you've bought into the same prejudice she is exhibiting.
Having a blue-colored prejudice doesn't make someone sophisticated - it makes them backwards in a different way. I'm not impressed with narrow-minded people.
Based on the descriptions of the those quoted, I think it's a trumped up story. Considering how hard the writer labors to highlight the differences, I think he's stoking the divide more than reporting on it. I know there are differences, but it's no more than the differences between Austin and Dallas. It's not a very good article. A real reporter doesn't have to photoshop a story in order to make it true.
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I love Virginia-- all of it.
Scott, I'm with you there. I'm not from Virginia, but my grandparents lived there when I was a child and I have always loved it. They were in Centreville, which is now part of Metro DC but was really just a small town back then. I lived in Northern VA for 12 years, and will probably end up back in some part of the state someday.
I grew up in NY and have lived in Virginia, Delaware, Georgia and Utah, and have traveled throughout the US, but Virginia is where my heart is.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eddie From Ohio does a great song about Virginia-- called 'Old Dominion.'
Here's the chorus:
quote:when you're talking home you mean the old dominion just southeast of heaven to the surf and the hills she's the best of thirteen sisters and thirty seven more sweet sweet virginia always keeps an open door
Which I heartily agree with.
I'm not a native Virginian; I've been here since 1990. I LIKE the juxtaposition of the Northern and Southern parts of the state (I live in Fredericksburg, just south of the Rappahannock). I like being able to go north to get good shopping and culture and ethnic food and my job; I like going south and west for the beaches, the mountains, the woods, the amusement parks, and the barbecue.
Mmmm...barbecue.
My family, on both sides, are long-time Virginians; my dad's family has been in this area since the Revolutionary War, my mom's since shortly after the Civil War. They complain about Yankees still; I don't, really. Unless those Yankees get all kinds of uppity about how they don't like Virginia (and they've never been south of Dumfries). Then, I don't have much use for them.
In doing an anthropology paper, I came across some research that indicated that Northern Virginia really isn't part of the south; it's lost its "southerness." I agree, but don't really mind it so much. There's another culture there-- not a better one. Just different.
I like having options.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Many states are like this. Maryland's eastern shore doesn't want any part of the Baltimore/Annapolis/DC mega city. The eastern shore folk call them "chicken neckers", those west of the Bay call them rednecks.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Scott, do you know any of my LDS Frederickburg friends: Jilleen Harter, Tom John, Frank and Amy Weber, or Gary and Beth Austin?
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quote:I thought it was called the Rust Belt because what had once been a string of industries based on the production of and use of steel have all moved overseas, and giant factories are literally sitting around rusting.
Prior to their movement overseas, the factories moved to the South because the Northern workers unionized and the Southern workers and states were much less friendly towards unions.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nope, Scott, I don't know the wards, and I don't really know Frederickburg all that well. Jilleen was in my mission many more years ago than I care to remember, and I haven't met her husband.
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posted
Northwest Arkansas has been threatening (off and on) to break off from Arkansas and form the state of Ozark for over 30 years and it hasn't happened. (God I wish it would...)
California has talked about splitting into 2 (or 3) peices. LA and the bay area don't belong in the same state. And neither belong with the third of the state north of Santa Rosa.
Liberal, Kansas once threatened to split away from Kansas.
McDonald County, Missouri once threatened to leave Missouri and join Arkansas due to being left off the tourist map. This would have created an inverted bootheal on the western side of Missouri/Arkansas... but I think we warned them off.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Liberal, Kansas once threatened to split away from Kansas.
Actually, it was a good chuck of southwest Kansas. There was a political reason behind that threat, too. Lack of representation in the judiciary or something. Can't remember exactly...
Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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TStorm: Ya, I should have said "The area around Liberal, Kansas."
I remember at the time thinking they had a good reason to be pissed but I can't remember what it was.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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My mind keeps telling me it had something to do with district court lines being redrawn...in a way that favored the eastern part of the state more than the west.
Or maybe it was related to taxes. That area is particularly rich in oil and natural gas deposits. I honestly don't remember exactly.
It's only tangentially related to this thread, but I'll say it anyway, for Pixiest: I'm from Kansas...not to be confused with the same Kansas that created Senators like Sam Brownback. Brownback calls homosexual acts 'immoral' From the examples we've seen listed here, it's probably true that there is a cultural divide in many states.
Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Recommended reading: The Nine Nations of North America, Joel Garreau. It's from the 70's, but it's still true.
Regarding the anti-Southern thing: there's not much more ironic than stereotyping a group as stereotyping too much! Still, there are certainly worse fates than being looked down on. I'll take it from a black friend who told me, "If someone's prejudiced, that's their problem."
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I've lived in Southwest VA all my life, and to anyone who hasn't seen the blue ridge mountains, you're definitely missing out.
But the article is definitely spot on about the difference between Nova and the rest, at least from what I've observed.
If nova seceded, though, the rest of VA wouldn't get all of those nova tax dollars! It would be a disaster.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Washington has had similar discussions about splitting, since Western Washington is a liberal hotbed and Eastern Washington is basically the Midwest, displaced.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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(Heh. I'm a little surprised that there's actually a town somewhere called "Liberal.")
quote:Regarding the anti-Southern thing: there's not much more ironic than stereotyping a group as stereotyping too much!
<grin> I had the same thought.
The whole separate culture thing seems like a double edged sword. As I understand it, many Northern Virginians don't really appreciate being told that they're not "real Virginians," even though they do acknowledge the differences.
posted
It's nice to see I've caused a little bit of upheaval
Actually, I'm well aware that not everyone south of the Mason Dixon line is a redneck member of the KKK. I had hoped that many enlightened people who happen to live in the south would agree with me, that it's very disturbing to see some of the entrenched racism going on. When I hear about high schools with segregated proms, it disgusts me.
There's racism everywhere, and there are good people everywhere, it's true. I don't think most of the people who post on Hatrack, even if they live in the deep south, are racist and backward.
I think it's appropriate though, to call a spade a spade, and be willing to stand up to the entrenched bigotry that does exist in many places in America, and often seems to rear its ugly head in the south. A lot of people in the south are ashamed of it, but a lot embrace it, flying the confederate flag high and supporting segregation.
Ignoring it won't make it go away, it only makes it worse.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
If you had said that at first, it would have been okay. What you said at first is problematic.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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"My home town, Atlanta, was burned to the ground. That's not something you think of lightly."
It was also a hundred and forty years ago. I'm not saying get over it, but get over it. Slavery the Civil War will always be part of your past, but they don't need to be part of your future..
kq, no va can mean "no go" in Spanish. It's not very idiomatic, though. There is also a slight difference in pronunciation.
"Having a blue-colored prejudice doesn't make someone sophisticated - it makes them backwards in a different way. "
I have written several responses to this and then deleted all of them. I cannot think of what to say except to affirm my belief that not all prejudices are equal. To believe that knowledge is better than ignorence is not wrong, it is fundamentaly right. To believe that an international outlook is preferable to localism is not wrong but a natural conclusion for today's society.
There are elements of rural Southern culture which I do find deeply disturbing, particularly its brand of fundamentalist Christianity and its deep anti-intellectualism which is the heart of Southern education problem. Futhermore, there is still a huge ammount of racism in the South, and not only against Blacks. There is also a great deal of sexism and an apalling degree of homophobia.
Theese are not differences to be celebrated, but social problems of the highest level.
Keep in mind that I am something of a Southerner. I have lived my life outside of the South (barely), but my mother and all her family are Southerners. One of my great-grandfathers was wounded and decorated in the Civil war, fighting for the South. Another great-grandfather was a share-cropper. My grandmother grew up in a shack in the middle of the woods with no electricity or running water and holes in the floor where you could see the chickens.
Posts: 211 | Registered: Dec 2006
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MC: If you communicate badly, don't blame the messenger who informs you of it. It isn't my fault you posted narrow-minded and prejudiced material.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:To believe that an international outlook is preferable to localism is not wrong but a natural conclusion for today's society.
I agree! The point is that stereotyping large swaths of the United States is NOT being broad-minded, and thinking that one kind of provincialism is better than another is particularly deluded.
If you think that you aren't stereotyping the South by implying it is filled with ignorant locals, then you especially don't know what you are talking about and I suggest a tour of the country with stops to a bunch of the universities, museums, and charity events for diseases and refugees along the way. However, if you persist in believing you have nothing to learn, then you'll see nothing. Can you see how unfair you are being?
There ARE social problems with the South - as there is in the rest of the United States and the rest of the world. Focusing on the problems of the South and dismissing the entire region for it is as wrong as focusing on the race of some coke dealers and dismissing all blacks for it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
This article could have been written about almost any state.
Eastern Washington vs. Western Washinton Salt Lake Valley vs. Rural Utah Missoula vs. Butte Northern California vs. Southern California Northern New Mexico vs. Southern New Mexico
and so on.
Every state I'm familiar with has a divide of some sort. Maybe the smaller eastern states are more homogenous, but the bigger states in the west are all divided.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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