I actually don't live in Fredericksburg city; I'm in the suburbs outside of it, in Spotsylvania county.
I'll be passing through there, whilst visiting the Fredericksburg Civil War battle site, in about five months. Anything big or cool I should see while I'm there? Or anywhere special to eat?
I should add, that this thread has overwhelmingly reaffirmed my longstanding belief that the Electoral College needs to die fast and hard.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: MC: If you communicate badly, don't blame the messenger who informs you of it. It isn't my fault you posted narrow-minded and prejudiced material.
If you choose to be reactionary, instead of offering a fellow poster the benefit of the doubt, who is the more narrow-minded?
I can't force you to take offense when none is intended, and particularly none is directed at you. You have to choose to do that yourself.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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You MUST get directions to Carl's frozen custard and give it a visit. Best frozen confection EVER.
I'm serious. If you pass up this opportunity, I'll never speak to you again.
There are a number of excellent restaurants in Downtown Fredericksburg; we enjoy Olde Towne Steak and Seafood (very pricey) and La Petit Auberge (pricier)... For good seafood, you might like Barefoot Greens; mostly fried stuff, but they've got make some good crab.
Mmm...crab. If you're in Northern VA, or Maryland, you HAVE to try the blue crab. Delicious. It's an exercise to eat them, but worth it, IMO. They can be expensive; about $50-60/bushel. But a bushel will feed a number of adults, so... (Maryland has better crabs. I suggest Captain John's Crab House on Cobb Island, if you're ever out by Dahlgren. All you can eat steamed blue crabs...)
More modestly priced food can be had in Downtown Fredericksburg, too. All food that isn't fast food is good down there. There's a vegetarian restaurant that consistently gets good reviews; I think it's called Merrimans. OSC gave a favorable review to Mike and Dave's cafe.
Anyway...lots of good food in Fredericksburg.
Which Civil War battle site are you going to? Every inch of Fredericksburg, and most of Spotsylvania was a battle site...
Whatever you do, schedule two or three hours to walk around downtown Fredericksburg. Take it slow-- there are lots of little hole in the wall places that you miss if you go too quickly.
There's not as much to do in Spotsylvania. The battlefields are largely do-it-yourself tours, and are spaced far enough apart you can't visit them on foot. There is no (or little) public transportation in the city or the county; your best bet is to stick with the city if you are just doing a day trip. If you DO visit a battlefield in Spotsy, try the Battlefied of the Bloody Angle. That's the one our family likes the most. (But probably for different reasons than historical interest) Battlefields in Spotsy are rarely crowded; in Fredericksburg, you may have a difficult time in the visitor's center.
Spotsylvania is extremely close to Fredericksburg; when we learned our Civil War history in Middle School (when I lived in Texas) I always imagined them far apart. They are not-- only about seven miles. However, if you're visiting on a Friday, or on a weekend, traffic can be a bear. Also, driving in Fredericksburg city can be an experience, as the one way streets often aren't labeled, and there's never any parking.
Sorry. You're not a Southerner. You're missing the qualifications.
1) You don't seem to want to be a Southerner.
2) You haven't lived in the South.
Ignoring the problems that any culture has isn't healthy. The South has its share-- poverty, education, racism, etc.
However, to a lot of people, the Confederate flag and its children don't represent the problems within Southern culture, but its unique strengths. To these people, the Confederate flag represents the Blues, Jazz, good cooking, friendliness, honor, and patriotism. It represents gentility and good manners.
I'm not in favor of the Confederate flag flying over anyone's capitol building, or behind anyone automobile. I think that the offenses that the State it represented committed are severe enough that Southern culture is better represented by some other symbol. But I've taken the time to investigate the issue, and understand it from the opposite viewpoint.
posted
In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
I'm not a Southerner (grew up in Pennsylvania), but my husband is. We like NoVa, but most of it is most definitely NOT the South. On the other hand, there are pockets (for example, in the aforementioned western part of my county) that feel--and sound--much more like the southern part of the state. If the reporter had just driven 50 miles west of Alexandria...
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I'm sure I don't count as Southern either. FWIW, though, I was born and have lived my life south of the Mason-Dixon line. In addition to Florida, I have lived in Tennessee and in both Carolinas. I love the best parts of southern culture. In my tastes in art, in towns, and in general outlook, I believe I can honestly claim to be Southern. And that damned old flag doesn't stand for any of the things I love about the South. At least, not to me it doesn't. *shrug* To me it stands for all the things that are wrong with the South. And not because of what liberals or northerners say, but because of the other values that are often associated with that flag by the very people waving it.
And I have investigated the issue.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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To tell you the truth, we were only planning on making a short stop in Fredericksburg, I didn't realize there was so much to be seen. I'm the big history geek of the group of friends (me and two girls) that are going, and I demanded a certain amount of Civil War Battle Site time, but I'm using up a lot of it on Gettysburg, Andersonville, and Chickamauga. I had to give up Manassas because it was too far out of the way, so I don't know how long they'll let me linger in Fredericksburg. I also don't know the area at all. I know Gettysburg like the back of my hand, so driving around there is easy, but I haven't a clue as to Fredericksburg.
We will DEFINETELY stop at the custard place. We have something like that on the West side of Michigan (which I only get once a year when I make my trek over there) called Whippy Dip. I don't know about the rest. Originally we were going to go white water rafting in Richmond on the James River, but apparently the place we were going to do it with lost their license, so now we're doing it in Pennsylvania. I was planning on getting some good seafood when we go to the Outer Banks in NC. How good is this blue crab stuff you speak of? And how much is in a bushel? Our voyage through Virginia is driving from Washington DC to Virginia Beach, where we're staying the night, and it will be on a Friday I think. I think we're stopping off in Fredericksburg for maybe an hour, and going to Newport News for like an hour to see a maritime museum.
I wish I had more time to spend in some of these places, but it's kind of a whirlwind 11 day road trip that covers a LOT of ground. The only place we'll be for any length of time is Orlando for Disneyworld.
Think you could meet us as Carl's for some frozen custard that afternoon/evening?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
You're in Louden? Cool.
Lyrhawn, the Fredericksburg battlefield is a moving place to visit. There's a place on the tour where you stand where the first rank of entrenched Southerners were, elevated and overlooking a couple hundred yards without any cover, going slightly uphill, over which the Northern commander ordered his troops to charge. The Southerners had 1 in 3 shooting, with the other two reloading, so shots were going off at an incredible rate. It was slaughter, and to stand where it happened is to actually feel "What the hell were they thinking."
People took carriages from DC to see the first battle of the civil war. It was a spectator sport.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I realize this is a few years old, but this kind of thing should NOT be happening in 2003. I'm sure it's not a unique case, based on how normal all the people involved seem to think it is:
quote:I'm sorry that you chose to take it other than I had intended.
Dude. Quit weaseling around it, MC. You deliberately phrased your post in an offensive manner because you felt there were problems in 'The South' that deserved it. Stop all this benefit of the doubt nonsense.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I do think there are problems in the south, and if the shoe fits, they should hop in and clomp around a little. I hope it gives them bunions.
At the same time, I think it doesn't take an ounce of good faith to realize I was speaking to a specific subset of people who are the problem, and not categorizing half the population of the US as yokels.
You can read it as a direct criticism of a very closed-minded and bigoted segment of the population, which it is. You can also choose to get yourself riled up and take offense.
If you want to defend institutionalized segregation, step up to the plate and do so. If you agree with me, that segments of the South are indeed messed up and backward in their thinking, I don't see any benefit in looking for something to be huffy about.
I make no apology or weaseling about it: the parts of the South where segregation and racism run rampant are beneath my contempt.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
You're in Louden? Cool.
Lyrhawn, the Fredericksburg battlefield is a moving place to visit. There's a place on the tour where you stand where the first rank of entrenched Southerners were, elevated and overlooking a couple hundred yards without any cover, going slightly uphill, over which the Northern commander ordered his troops to charge. The Southerners had 1 in 3 shooting, with the other two reloading, so shots were going off at an incredible rate. It was slaughter, and to stand where it happened is to actually feel "What the hell were they thinking."
People took carriages from DC to see the first battle of the civil war. It was a spectator sport.
Ever been to Gettysburg? It's the same thing only a MILE over open land with multiple lines of Union soldiers firing with canon support from all over the field. Almost thirteen thousand Confederates attacked, and half were casualties by the end of the assualt within minutes as the Union troops shouted "Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg!" as Pickett and Lee looked on from afar.
It's going to be an amazing trip to see both sites within a couple days. I've already been to Gettysburg before, but there's so much to see, I missed a lot last time. Thanks for point that out though, I really hadn't given much though to which part of the Fredericksburg battlefield to actually focus on.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:If you want to defend institutionalized segregation, step up to the plate and do so. If you agree with me, that segments of the South are indeed messed up and backward in their thinking, I don't see any benefit in looking for something to be huffy about.
It's nice, the way you're attempting to frame the argument so that disagreement with you puts you firmly with segregationists, but it just doesn't wash.
What you said first didn't mention anything about "segments".
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
I added emphasis to help you out. Think what you like. If you aren't willing to discuss in good faith, I don't care what you think about my initial intentions. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Anyone live in South-Eastern Virginia?
I reside in Virginia Beach.
I grew up there. My folks moved up to No. Va. when I was at UVA for undergrad in 89, and I came up here starting with school breaks then.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
If you cannot, examining this paragraph in retrospect, understand how it implies you feel a certain way about the entire South, you're either just short-sighted or covering for yourself.
In one sentence, you say the South is bad. In another sentence, you say some people in the South are bad. You offered no qualifications in the post, only did so after the fact.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I've never been to any part of Virginia except for Colonial Williamsburg (when I was a very small boy), Charlottesville and the suburbs of Richmond. Charlottesville is very pretty, although the climate is much to humid for my tastes. Is that Northern or Southern Virginia? It looks pretty Northern on a map to me....
Posts: 211 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote: A lot of people in the south are ashamed of it, but a lot embrace it, flying the confederate flag high and supporting segregation.
While some people fly the flag to insult blacks, most of them fly it to insult Yankees. According to Wiki, it's the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. I was told it became popular in the 60s whent he North started butting in telling the South what to do. It's sort of a giant "Yankee, go home" sign.
Straight from Wiki:
quote: ...the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty. Since the issues of slavery and, later, segregation, are deeply intertwined with the CSA and the Civil Rights Movement, the Confederate Flag can also be considered to have connotations of racism and slavery.
The flag has a lot more to do with the person flying it than any one ideology. Heck, the design was originally changed from an upright cross so Southern Jews would feeel more included.
As for racism in the South, I think we suffer the same problem as everyone else. Blacks and whites tend not to live in the same neighborhoods, so they don't know each other. We aren't friends, so we want to live near people we're more comfortable with. Our kids don't go to the same schools, or if they do, they don't hang out because they have nothing in common. So when they grow up, they live in seperate neighborhoods and don't know each other. How do you fix that institutionally?
I don't think you can. I think we just need to be nice to the folks we do know and be open to the idea of making friends with people who don't look just like us. Meanwhile, because our racism is constantly thrown in our faces, we do tend to be aware of our stereotypes and assumptions about others. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible, either.
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quote: I was told it became popular in the 60s whent he North started butting in telling the South what to do.
This is true, but I don't think this makes the connotation less racist. What the North (some of the North, not all, of course) was telling the South to do was to give black children equal education, let black adults vote, and dismantle a system that, by design, limited the opportunities for blacks to progress economically.
The confederate emblem was added to the Georgia state flag in direct response to Brown.
I do believe that some individuals who fly the flag do so for non-racist reasons, but the fact that it was an actual governmental symbol used twice to rally support for policies aimed directly at harming black people makes me think the non-racist cultural reasons for flying it are outweighed by the hurt it causes many who see it.*
*Outside the context of certain memorials or historical displays. It is appropriate, when honoring dead soldiers, to display the flag under which they fought.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Isn't Northern Virginia... well... West Virginia? Or is that just an aftereffect of the AOL hub in Richmond warping time and space?
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The South was mad becuase they didn't want to be nice to blacks. But I suspect they were pretty ticked that the North wanted them to be nicer to blacks than they were themselves. Which is worse, a law that says blacks can't go to white schools or blacks not going to white schools because whites move out of a northern neighborhood when the blacks move in? Does it make a bit of difference who's better if the end result was that blacks went to inferior schools?
My great-grandmother loved a joke that, of course, isn't funny anymore. Basically, an old black man went from door to door looking for some food. The first two houses were northern women who were kind, called him sir, and wouldn't feed him. The last was a southern woman who called him names, told him to get around back - but she fed him.
Southerners might have looked down on blacks, but there was often a genuine affection or sense of responsibility there that I don't know that any other region ever felt. I feel Southerners were so angry about the Civil Rights Movement because they felt betrayed. Like when a child rebels against a domineering parent, they honestly didn't see what htey were doing as wrong so the blacks must have been ungrateful.
I think Southern attitudes towards blacks have historically been more complicated than they've ever been presented as.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Which is worse, a law that says blacks can't go to white schools or blacks not going to white schools because whites move out of a northern neighborhood when the blacks move in? Does it make a bit of difference who's better if the end result was that blacks went to inferior schools?
I'm pretty sure the north didn't send troops into the South to stop white flight. Beyond that, oppressive law is far worse than oppressive (to cast it in the worst possible light) choice of where to live. Both reflect ugly attitudes. But the former reflects ugly attitudes backed by coercive force.
quote:I think Southern attitudes towards blacks have historically been more complicated than they've ever been presented as.
I think that's very true. But I think, speaking historically and generally, they were far worse than Northern attitudes towards blacks. And I'm not saying the Northern attitudes were very good at all.
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"But I think, speaking historically and generally, they were far worse than Northern attitudes towards blacks. And I'm not saying the Northern attitudes were very good at all."
In that case, we agree completely.
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As it turns out, Jillene works at the same elementary school as my Mom.
Small world after all.
Icarus:
I dunno. You sound pretty Southern to me...
quote:Charlottesville is very pretty, although the climate is much to humid for my tastes. Is that Northern or Southern Virginia? It looks pretty Northern on a map to me....
No. It's definitely not in northern Virginia. More like central Virginia. Though, if you asked the folks living there, they'd probably say western Virginia, since central Virginia implies being close to that stinkpot Richmond...
(I happen to like Richmond-- they've got a great science museum and a middling kids' museum. Plus, barbecue. Mmmmmm...
Also, Mrs. M lives there.)
Charlottesville is beautiful. I worked there for about a year.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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To be fair, white flight, in Detroit anyway, wasn't just racially motivated. To be sure there were big, big problems in Detroit, the base of which I think started from a massive influx of southern blacks (and whites, though not as much) who came to Detroit seeking jobs in the 40's.
Anyway, the reason a lot, a LOT of whites left in the 50's and 60's was because Detroit's taxes were unbearably high. Companies left the city, opened factories and created jobs in the suburbs, and the whites left to follow the jobs and get away from the high taxes. The injustice was that racist lending practices that didn't allow blacks to leave the city and trapped them there, but you can hardly blame whites for leaving. There's plenty of blame to go around.
The 12th Street Riot just sealed the deal. Middle class blacks fled the city too, no one wanted to be there.
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