quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Methodists and Anglicans both have both confirmation and bishops, so it's not a solid ID, depending on the other Catholic references.
I think you are picking at nits here. Eastern Orthodox has both as well, and if I had to choose two it would have been Roman Catholic or Easter Orthodox as that family's religion, based just on that short conversation. I understand being defensive about it, but what I pointed out wasn't an indictment of Catholicism.
I missed the part on the page that mentioned it was a Catholic family before. Or maybe I didn't miss it totally and didn't realize that it affected my assessment without consciously recognizing it. Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:It is not always a very focused feeling, because it typically starts with a trust in the upper levels of the organization and finds foundation in fear of the organization as a whole.
Do you mean distrust? Or do you mean starting with trust that is subsequently disapointed?
quote:Because while the part that turns people off to the organizational aspect may hinge on what they feel is manipulation, the part that those and many areligious people actually fear is the large groups who are assumed to being manipulated.
Okay, this is where I'm not asking questions, because I have a vehement response to this. Religion is voluntary! It's totally voluntary! If you are an adult, then if you don't go to church, then (barring specialized circumstances) no one takes away your paycheck. No one locks you up. There may be some fallout from relationships, but the glory of being an adult is that you don't have to live your religion wholly or even in part unless you want to.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I sorta think she didn't act so much like "a christian" so much as she acted like a "Freaked out and worried Mom."
I don't endorse her screaming and materialistic threats of course, but she seemed like a woman who was put in a situation she didn't expect from her child and didn't know what to do.
As far as the Christian point of view goes, I have to imagine the idea that her child won't be joining her in heaven has to be devastating.
What she said.
Is it wrong to go ahead and edit posts you are quoting for spelling, or even punctuation?
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quote:I think you are picking at nits here. Eastern Orthodox has both as well, and if I had to choose two it would have been Roman Catholic or Easter Orthodox as that family's religion, based just on that short conversation. I understand being defensive about it, but what I pointed out wasn't an indictment of Catholicism.
I missed the part on the page that mentioned it was a Catholic family before. Or maybe I didn't miss it totally and didn't realize that it affected my assessment without consciously recognizing it.
No, I was just giving more information and specifically left room for other Catholic-suggesting references that you said you might have heard but couldn't remember.
It's been confirmed, now.
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quote:Religion is voluntary! It's totally voluntary! If you are an adult, then if you don't go to church, then (barring specialized circumstances) no one takes away your paycheck. No one locks you up. There may be some fallout from relationships, but the glory of being an adult is that you don't have to live your religion wholly or even in part unless you want to.
None of that means that people aren't manipulated.
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quote:What I do believe is that such a view does not spring whole from nothing. If enough purple polka dotted people punched you in the arm every time you met one, wouldn't you eventually begin to shield your arm when you saw a purple polka dotted person approaching?
I agree. But this speaks for a degree of personal, physical, conclusive experience which I don't think is realistic in most interactions with religious people.
Also, when they punched you, were you threatening them with a gamboozle? Because, really, you should know better than to approach a purple polka dotted person with a gamboozle. It's just common sense.
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But with children, they do not have a choice!
This is the greatest crime on this earth!
You are indoctrinating them into beliefs they may or may not have chosen given free will, and you are stealing their options away from them, and setting them into a groove that may cause them to be attacked, discriminated against, or any other such, or they may do that to others because of their religions!
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Methodists and Anglicans both have both confirmation and bishops, so it's not a solid ID, depending on the other Catholic references.
I think you are picking at nits here. Eastern Orthodox has both as well, and if I had to choose two it would have been Roman Catholic or Easter Orthodox as that family's religion, based just on that short conversation. I understand being defensive about it, but what I pointed out wasn't an indictment of Catholicism.
I missed the part on the page that mentioned it was a Catholic family before. Or maybe I didn't miss it totally and didn't realize that it affected my assessment without consciously recognizing it.
Mormons have confirmation and bishops as well. The fact the boy was accused by his mother of saying anything to the Bishop at his confirmation, leads me to believe the family if they are catholic are converts, as the boy would not recollect much if he was born into the church.
Its still within the realm of reasonable possibility that these folks are Mormons.
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People are subject to advertising every day that people spend millions of dollars magnopere tailoring to get money from someone. The entire world is filled with people trying to persuade each other to do things - usually spend money or time. I don't think religion is exempt from being one of the voices, but it is far from being particularly culpable and it is definitely still voluntary.
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quote:The fact the boy was accused by his mother of saying anything to the Bishop at his confirmation, leads me to believe the family if they are catholic are converts, as the boy would not recollect much if he was born into the church.
Catholic confirmation happens after the age of reason - in many dioceses, after high school starts.
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quote:You are indoctrinating them into beliefs they may or may not have chosen given free will, and you are stealing their options away from them, and setting them into a groove that may cause them to be attacked, discriminated against, or any other such, or they may do that to others because of their religions!
Yep. Same for school, ballet lessons, and space camp. That's what parenting is - someone would be criminally negligent to do nothing to prepare their children for entrance into society - all the different societies. That's the obligations of being a parent.
I absolutely love being an adult. There is nothing about being a kid again that sounds appealing to me, and the lack of autonomy tops of list of things that suck about being 12. Having teenagers is difficult precisely because they are transitioning between childhood and adulthood. Once they are adults, though, it is up to the individual.
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quote:The fact the boy was accused by his mother of saying anything to the Bishop at his confirmation, leads me to believe the family if they are catholic are converts, as the boy would not recollect much if he was born into the church.
Catholic confirmation happens after the age of reason - in many dioceses, after high school starts.
I did not know this! Thanks.
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quote:People are subject to advertising every day that people spend millions of dollars magnopere tailoring to get money from someone. The entire world is filled with people trying to persuade each other to do things - usually spend money or time. I don't think religion is exempt from being one of the voices, but it is far from being particularly culpable and it is definitely still voluntary.
I agree. But you were taking issue with the idea of religions being manipulative (edit: not if it was okay that they were so).
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I think a lot of the maniuplations that various people/organizations do are irresponsible and have a net negative effect. They often exist to discourage rational consideration, instill negative feelings in people, and/or reduce the control people exercise over their lives.
And the best ones make these things seem like it was all the person's idea.
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posted
I think she mentioned that he was confirmed at age 15...
quote:But with children, they do not have a choice!
This is the greatest crime on this earth!
You are indoctrinating them into beliefs they may or may not have chosen given free will, and you are stealing their options away from them, and setting them into a groove that may cause them to be attacked, discriminated against, or any other such, or they may do that to others because of their religions!
Well, that's certainly one view of it.
Another, more plausible view is that parents are passing along something they value, that they feel will do the child good.
It's what parents do.
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quote:It is not always a very focused feeling, because it typically starts with a trust in the upper levels of the organization and finds foundation in fear of the organization as a whole.
Do you mean distrust? Or do you mean starting with trust that is subsequently disapointed?
I mean both, depending on circumstances. There is no single pattern. Issues with trust of the group or organization as a whole is usually what starts it, but in many different ways depending on circumstance.
quote:
quote:Because while the part that turns people off to the organizational aspect may hinge on what they feel is manipulation, the part that those and many areligious people actually fear is the large groups who are assumed to being manipulated.
Okay, this is where I'm not asking questions, because I have a vehement response to this. Religion is voluntary! It's totally voluntary!
If you believe that is true then you are ignoring, unaware of, or unwilling to attribute the value of having certain beliefs instilled upon you (general you) as a child. It is voluntary similar to how shaking someone's hand as a greeting is voluntary.
quote:If you are an adult, then if you don't go to church, then (barring specialized circumstances) no one takes away your paycheck. No one locks you up. There may be some fallout from relationships, but the glory of being an adult is that you don't have to live your religion wholly or even in part unless you want to.
You are arguing using unrelated points. Most people in the world belong to the faith of their parents or the predominant faith in where they grew up. It isn't a gun to the head, but it does affect how we view the world around us and how religion applies to it.
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quote:Another, more plausible view is that parents are passing along something they value, that they feel will do the child good.
That's one view. Another, more nuanced view is that there are many different ways of doing things like this, some of which are generally positive in practice and effect and some of which are negative. It is not the general type of behavior itself, but rather the way that people engage in it that make the determination.
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There is no state religion. It is illegal to discriminate because of religion in the workplace. In practical terms, it is impossible to make a fellow adult go to church and especially impossible to make them be sincerely religious if they don't want to. It's voluntary.
Adults take responsibility for their own actions. If some adult is going to church and blames it on being manipulated, then they need to grow. Of course we are all products of our culture and upbringing, but we are not SOLELY products. Blaming other people for one's own actions is, funnily enough, the action of a child. Choose to go or not to go, but whatever you decide, take responsibility for it yourself.
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quote:In practical terms, it is impossible to make a fellow adult go to church
That kind of depends on how you mean "make". You can use some pretty heavy manipulation (psychological or otherwise) to get them to go. This manipulation may be the only reason why they do go, against their will. Given enough control, you can even brainwash into wanting to go.
Realistically, we are generally talking more about matters of degree than a binary, yes or no situation.
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Brainwashing is a convenient fiction. There is no way to make someone a long-term faithful member of a church or religion unless they want to be.
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posted
This is quickly tuning into a chicken or egg debate that will potentially escalate. I am not arguing for or against someone having religion, I was simply trying to clarify the basis for certain opinions to which I do not hold but understand fairly well.
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quote:Adults take responsibility for their own actions. If some adult is going to church and blames it on being manipulated, then they need to grow. Of course we are all products of our culture and upbringing, but we are not SOLELY products. Blaming other people for one's own actions is, funnily enough, the action of a child. Choose to go or not to go, but whatever you decide, take responsibility for it yourself.
Ladies and Gentleman, I present you with The Milgram Experiment. 60% or so of people will kill someone if someone in a lab coat asks them to. Properly done, manipulation is much more effective than I think is being credited in this thread.
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posted
With religion however, this is one of the most important, if not the most important factor in many of their lives ans shouldn't they be allowed to figure it out for themselves without having anyone tell them where to go and what to believe?
Morals, basic virtues and etc. I believe are outside of any religion, and I think these can be taught, but the theological structure should not be taught, but all available views should be presented, so that they may find what they feel is right.
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posted
That controlled experiment under specialized conditions is utterly irrelevant to the way human beings in real life choose to partipate or not participate in religions.
quote:With religion however, this is one of the most important, if not the most important factor in many of their lives ans shouldn't they be allowed to figure it out for themselves without having anyone tell them where to go and what to believe?
They can! As adults (again barring the few crazy outlying exceptions), they can choose for themselves what to believe and how or whether to participate.
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posted
No, when the man in the robes who is worshipped by the child's parents tells them to believe it, they will do it, and anything else, because they feel they are expected to.
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I gotta say, that video looks staged to me. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I think this particular event wasn't real.
That sort of reaction probably isn't ideal if you want your kid to change his mind, but I can understand why it might happen. That mother (or someone in a similar situation) probably believes her kid would go to hell now. That's a lot of strain to put on a parent, and I could see why it could cause someone to snap like that.
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quote:Brainwashing is a convenient fiction. There is no way to make someone a long-term faithful member of a church or religion unless they want to be.
kat, What is your basis for claiming this? Granted, I'm using brainwashing as the popular term for a loosely associated collection of methods that are used to instill long term beliefs in people against their will or at least without their consent, but, if we're talking about the same thing, what you are saying is counter to my experience in years of studying and experimenting in psychology and against the American Psychological association.
In more extreme cases, such as when used by cults, these methods have the exact effect you are saying that they don't. That is, turning people into long-term, faithful members of that cult/religion. So faithful, in fact, that they are willing to commit suicide, along with a host of other things at the direction of people in the cult.
If you are going to disagree that any of this exists, could you give you reasons for doing so?
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...went to church more often than my parents (once I was able to go by myself).
...really, dearly treasure days where I don't have to get "up" and dressed at all. Mmmm, padding around in my jammies all day is bliss.
...make it to mass pretty much every week, but don't fret unduly or worry about the state of my soul if I don't.
...don't worry about the souls of other people who don't.
...am grateful that my parish has a 5:00pm Sunday mass and that they need me to sing at that one.
edit to add: Oh, and chose it myself without undue influence from my parents. Part of becoming an adult is to decide to accept or reject all sorts of things that you experienced as a child. I know a lot of "cradle Catholics" who have mananged to decide for themselves what they want.
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quote:No, when the man in the robes who is worshipped by the child's parents tells them to believe it, they will do it, and anything else, because they feel they are expected to.
This goes for adults as well.
I don't know enough about child psychology to comment on this, and it messes with what the obligations and rights of parents are, but I know it doesn't apply to fully-actualized adults. Choosing what to believe, follow, and do with one's life is the fun part and the responsibility of being an adult.
quote:As adults (again barring the few crazy outlying exceptions), they can choose for themselves what to believe and how or whether to participate.
quote:Morals, basic virtues and etc. I believe are outside of any religion, and I think these can be taught, but the theological structure should not be taught, but all available views should be presented, so that they may find what they feel is right.
It's just not going to happen, nor should it. We value what we know too highly to even be able to attempt to give equal footing to something that is, in our estimation, false.
I don't teach my kids that men and dinosaurs co-existed just so they can make a choice between Creationism and evolution. That would be false; I teach them the truth as much as I know how.
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quote:That controlled experiment under specialized conditions is utterly irrelevant to the way human beings in real life choose to partipate or not participate in religions.
Yes, and if our understanding of psychological manipulation stopped in the early 1960s, that might be a more trenchant criticism. However, there has been a huge body of work developed since then. I brought Milgram up as a vivid example of the type of power that skilled manipulators could control, not as a direct analog to contemporary real world manipulation.
For a layman friendly overview of the post 60s field, I'd recommend checking out Robert Cialdini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion. (edit: fixed the link)
quote:Originally posted by RunningBear: No, when the man in the robes who is worshipped by the child's parents tells them to believe it, they will do it, and anything else, because they feel they are expected to.
You clearly have never met my children. Or many others', who ask (as they should!) question after question. Of me, of their father, of their teachers . . .
Then again, there is no "man in the robes who is worshipped by their parents," but you knew that was hysterical hyperbole when you said it. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I am not remotely interested enough in this topic to do outside research. If you, however, would like to summarize the main points, that would be welcome.
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Kmbboots, I certainly meant in no way to disparage Catholicism or Catholics, and I somewhat regret pointing out what seemed obvious indicators of a pointess observation in this case.
Katharina, I don't think that anyone is blaming things on one's childhood, but pointing out that it is not a choice that is made in such a black and white manner as you are arguing so vehemently. Human beings are not blank slates until we reach adulthood when it comes to matters of behavior, faith, and our most basic habits. All of it is learned through experience, emulation, and environment.
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Justa, I know it isn't black and white. That parents were Mormon has had incalcuable influence over my own religious choices. I know that upbrining has an effect. Our behavior is the result of many factors.
I still think, though, that on a Sunday morning when one is twenty-five, the decision to get up and go to church is ultimately up to the individual. Maybe free will is an illusion, but if it is, it is not because we have all been mass-hypnotized by one another. The decision to participate in a voluntary society must in the end come from oneself.
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quote:Kmbboots, I certainly meant in no way to disparage Catholicism or Catholics, and I somewhat regret pointing out what seemed obvious indicators of a pointess observation in this case.
Just to be clear, your pointing out she's Catholic in no way disparages Catholics in my mind. Plus, you were right, and it spawned an interesting exchange with BB - I had no idea there were LDS confirmations.
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quote:I am not remotely interested enough in this topic to do outside research. If you, however, would like to summarize the main points, that would be welcome.
I kinda already did. Manipulation can be much stronger than you especially seem to be crediting. Long term attitude change against people's will or against their consent is possible and has been demonstrated. Heck, hypnotic implantion can be surprisingly effective.
We've got a vast body of research that demonstrates these things. edit: I don't know that I can point you to a better source for examining this research than I already did.
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I'm curious, if you don't know that much about the field, where are you getting the foundation to claim that brainwashing is a convenient fiction?
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I don't teach my kids that men and dinosaurs co-existed just so they can make a choice between Creationism and evolution. That would be false; I teach them the truth as much as I know how.
But you do teach your kids, and that is what I was originally pointing out. Of course you teach your kids. You love them, you want them to grow in all ways, mind, body, and soul. It is an act of love, nurtuting and caring. I see no reason why anyone should feel justified in begrudging that.
But you (and others) do teach your kids. That is how they learn. That is how they begin to understand the world around them and how it works. There is nothing sinister in that. It just is.
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There are LDS confirmations, but I think it's completely different from what Catholics engage in.
'Confirmation' in Mormonism, is an ordinance in which the newly baptised member (often a child of 8) is given the gift of the Holy Ghost and made a member of the Church.
Can you clarify what is meant by confirmation in Catholiscism? (I think the idea is similar, but not the procedure)
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No disparagement taken. I agree that it is blurry. Parents do condition us. That is what parents do. Children aren't raised in a vaccuum. And not just about religion.
But children reject all sorts of stuff as they get older and form their own opinions. I honestly think that children are more likely to reject religion that is forced on them. I know a lot of Catholics who have.
MrSquicky, I think you are taking the Milgram experiment too far. It establishes what people are likely to do in a once-off, pressure situation. It doesn't really address what people decide to do or believe over the course of many years when the pressure is less focused.
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quote:Maybe free will is an illusion, but if it is, it is not because we have all been mass-hypnotized by one another.
As I've said, it is more complex than that. The choices aren't absolute free will versus no free will at all. I believe (and my study and research bear this out, in my opinion) that free will can be likened to a muscle. One's capacity for resisting external influences/manipulations can be developed or enervated. Also, specific types of manipulations can be countered by specific types of knowledge/training/personality factors.
But, to me, it is important to realize the immense effect external manipulation has in our society and that it is generally much greater than people want to credit.
quote:For a layman friendly overview of the post 60s field, I'd recommend checking out Robert Cialdini's [ur=http://tinyurl.com/yt6qz4]Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion[/url].
The link doesn't come up for me when I type it into the address bar.
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I think what people meant about representing is that the woman represents Catholics but she is not representative of Catholics, sort of like you could send Cold Stone Steve Austin to represent America at a WWF match although most Americans are not very much like Cold Stone Steve Austin.
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quote:Kmbboots, I certainly meant in no way to disparage Catholicism or Catholics, and I somewhat regret pointing out what seemed obvious indicators of a pointess observation in this case.
Just to be clear, your pointing out she's Catholic in no way disparages Catholics in my mind. Plus, you were right, and it spawned an interesting exchange with BB - I had no idea there were LDS confirmations.
There are confirmations in many Protestant sects, from what I understand. Your original list of Methodist, Anglican, Orthodox, and Catholic all have a similar ceremony, whereas the other examples of confirmation I have heard about do not as closely resemble those. Also, I was under the impression that Mormon bishops are laymen, without the same type of authority that a Catholic bishop would hold.
I just didn't want you or kmmboots to think I was singling out Catholicism. Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I think you've got that backwards, Qaz. I at least, was saying that she is representative (this is displays characteristics/behavior that a significant subsection of religious people have) rather than a representative.
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So, let me see if I understand something. Do you believe that it is immoral to raise your child within your religion, even if a major part of your religion involves the need for individuals to question everything, and for true faith to be developed independently, and not as a result of parental influence?
IE, you teach your children what you believe, and involve them in your religious community, but at the same time, explicitly teach them that right now, they probably believe what you do because they are too young to have really questioned anything ... but when they are older, it will be their responsibility to develop their own faith (if any), independent of yours?
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