quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I am also impressed with the social network portrayed by the LDS community. I don't know anything about it first hand, but there seems to be a great deal of planning built in for emergency situations.
Personally, I'm disappointed in human nature to the extent that people seem much more willing to help those within their own group than the population at large. I understand it completely, but it's still a hard pill to swallow.
I think the reason behind it is because it is easier to humanize someone like you because you can identify them in some manner to yourself. For example, once you know a person's name there is a certain level of intimacy reached, but when you know that person's nickname that level of intimacy is greater. Things like that draw us together into communities, and even within those communities there are smaller subdivisions. I had been taught previously that we learn to associate with the world on three levels: ourselves individually, ourselves to our 'family' or similar circle, and ourselves to our community. I tend to disagree on the semantics and break it down further into at least five levels: individually, family, extended family, community, the world and others. The closer one is to you in those levels, the more likely you are to view them charitably. It is not uncommon for militaries to encourage the extended family mentality with fellow soldiers and push the supposed enemy as far out into the "world and others" category as possible, for example. It is easier to want to destroy an enemy with whom you are not on a first-name basis.
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quote:Just because a human being cannot understand all things about God, does not mean that a human being cannot understand some things about God
That presupposes that there is a God. If there is no God, then there is nothing to understand about Him (except that He does not actually exist), and you're back to having a better chance of understanding a lot more of the alleged "truth" about the world.
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posted
Bao: I do understand the desire to help ones group, and I'm certainly compelled by it as well. To clarify, my disappointment was not directed at the LDS Church specifically.
I guess that I am intrigued by the odd restrictions we find ourselves working with. For example, if a random person on the street asked me to drive them to the store to pick up something, I wouldn't be inclined to let them get in my car. If someone I met at a friend's party asked me the same question, I'd be much more likely to agree, simply because I have a brief connection with them.
It's interesting to me, that we all make arbitrary choices about who is in our group, and who is out, and we are willing to go to much greater lengths for those inside than for strangers.
It makes prefect sense from a survival standpoint, or when there are limited resources available, but I still think most of the distinctions are rather arbitrary, and upon closer examination, we might find that they may be counter-productive in many cases.
posted
No worries MC. I actually have a pretty thick skin about my beliefs anyway, and it was clear to me that you were musing about society as a whole rather than the LDS church specifically. Rather the LDS Church was just kind of springboard into the broader discussion.
I just wasn't sure if you were trying to pass a moral judgment on it. I'm not sure what I think about that, one way or another. I appreciated the follow up post to let me know exactly where you were coming from though.
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posted
The study Katie cites is Stan Albrecht, et al, "Religious Leave-Taking" in David Bromley, ed, _Falling from the faith: causes and consequences of religious apostasy_, 1988.
It surveyed 1,874 disaffected and disaffiliated Mormons, offering them multiple reasons why people ceased church activity and attendance, of which they were asked to select all that applied.
54% cited "I found other interests and activities which led me to spend less and less time on church-related activities." 52% cited "I felt my lifestyle was no longer compatible with participation in the church." 40% cited "I just didn't feel like I belonged." 38% cited "When I grew up and started making my own decisions I stopped going to church." 37% cited "I moved to a different community and never got involved." 36% cited marriage to an inactive or nonmember spouse. 28% cited a work schedule. 23% cited "specific problems with the doctrines and teachings of the Church." 20% cited problems with other church members 18% cited "The church no longer helped me in finding the meaning of life."
My own opinion, given the rise of uncorrelated information about the church in the past two decades - via the Internet and elsewhere - is that the percentage citing specific doctrinal reasons would be higher today.
Albrecht, et al, broke down inactives along two axes - believer versus nonbeliever; engaged versus disengaged. The former is self-explanatory; the latter is divided among those who say the church is important to them and those who say it is not.
According to Albrecht, 55 percent of Mormons will become disengaged nonbelievers, 19 percent disengaged believers, and 4 percent engaged nonbelievers, for some period of at least a year. This means 78% of Mormons will undergo a year of inactivity in their lives. Of those 78%, however, more than half return, to total a 66% activity rate among Mormons at age 65.
All this, of course, applies to American Mormons. Outside the US, activity rates most generally fall between twenty and thirty percent.
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posted
What does it mean to be an engaged nonbeliever? And by the way, was "No longer found Book of Mormon/Bible/God hypothesis convincing" among the options in the survey?
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quote: Let's power down a little bit, folks (not all, but more than one, and that's as specific as I'd like to get).
I am sorry steven. I pulled a personal attack on you that did not contribute to the forum or discussion, was not productive criticism or input, and was probably against the ToS.
It certainly is unfair to pass sweeping judgments because of isolated events. I am pretty sure I got one new commer to delete her first post and never return.
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quote:What does it mean to be an engaged nonbeliever? And by the way, was "No longer found Book of Mormon/Bible/God hypothesis convincing" among the options in the survey?
I suppose that would fall under the "specific problems with doctrine..." category.
I'd be interested in how that breaks down into people switching religions vs. people simply abandoning it.
Edit - and an engaged non-believer might be someone who goes to church because he/she enjoys the community. Dawkins mentions that kind of thing in The God Delusion.Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Edit - and an engaged non-believer might be someone who goes to church because he/she enjoys the community. Dawkins mentions that kind of thing in The God Delusion.
At certain times in my life I've considered joining a church, even though I didn't believe, because it's nice to be able to find a read-made community of good people. That aspect of organized religion does have its benefits.
I've always ended up joining other groups instead though. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
KoM - the previous posters have addressed your questions, I think. Certainly issues with the Book of Mormon or God in general would fall into the 'problems with specific doctrines' category. I'd put most sticky issues in Mormon history in this category as well; thus my above hypothesis.
As to your first question, I think certainly the mentality of the nonbeliever who attends for family or social reasons fits, but this is of course a survey of non-attenders. So I'd think the category engaged nonbeliever might also be defined as that nonbeliever and nonattender who still remains interested in significant LDS events, intellectual life, community, etc. They exist. I've been one, and know many more.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: At certain times in my life I've considered joining a church, even though I didn't believe, because it's nice to be able to find a read-made community of good people. That aspect of organized religion does have its benefits.
I've always ended up joining other groups instead though.
quote: 54% cited "I found other interests and activities which led me to spend less and less time on church-related activities." 52% cited "I felt my lifestyle was no longer compatible with participation in the church." 40% cited "I just didn't feel like I belonged." 38% cited "When I grew up and started making my own decisions I stopped going to church." 37% cited "I moved to a different community and never got involved." 36% cited marriage to an inactive or nonmember spouse. 28% cited a work schedule. 23% cited "specific problems with the doctrines and teachings of the Church." 20% cited problems with other church members 18% cited "The church no longer helped me in finding the meaning of life."
All of these bold ones applied to my situation, and even the "other church members" one if you consider John Paul 2 a "member" of the Catholic church.
I mainly couldn't justify being in an organization that claimed to have True knowledge of Truth, when so many of its past and present actions (e.g. the crusades, the Inquisition, decrying the use of condoms in Africa) were so obviously wrong. After that, I decided God probably didn't exist and became much happier and more fulfilled. Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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I've sometimes been tempted to go to different churches just to see what they're like. And if I meet some cool people, that'd just be a bonus. Since I have no intention whatsoever of converting, though, I feel like it'd be operating under false pretenses to some extent. Also, it wouldn't be fun to deal with scorn if I were open about my atheism. (Not that scorn would be inevitable, but it seems a reasonable concern.)
Like you, I end up deciding that other organizations can serve my needs better.
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posted
You know what I miss? Singing in public. Short of going to karaoke bars, we secular folk don't have a lot of opportunities for that.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know what I miss? Singing in public. Short of going to karaoke bars, we secular folk don't have a lot of opportunities for that.
Community theatre! Someone is doing 'West Side Story' somewhere.
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Me = fattie. While there are a few roles for fat men in musicals, most of them are of the Cinderella's Father type. Once you've played Tevye and Thenardier, what's left? Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Me = fattie. While there are a few roles for fat men in musicals, most of them are of the Cinderella's Father type. Once you've played Tevye and Thenardier, what's left?
Ahem. I'm also a fattie.
What's left?
Colonel Pickering, "My Fair Lady" Officer Krupke or Lieutenant Schrank, "West Side Story" Arvide Abernathy or Nicely Nicely, "Guys and Dolls" Mr. Bumble, "Oliver!" Any of the men in "Music Man" Any of the older men in "Fiddler on the Roof"
posted
I am late to this thread, but I wanted to comment on the poor kid in the video who was chewed out by his mother for not believing in god anymore.
My dad was not quite as frantic as that lady, but behaved nearly as immaturely when I told him I was atheist, and I was 30 years old and had not lived at home for 12 years. I know the news was painful for him, but he still should have handled it better. There are just some things you should not allow yourself to say no matter how hurt or angry you are.
Oh, and my brother-in-law told my wife that the light had left my eyes.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know what I miss? Singing in public. Short of going to karaoke bars, we secular folk don't have a lot of opportunities for that.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know what I miss? Singing in public. Short of going to karaoke bars, we secular folk don't have a lot of opportunities for that.
Irish bars
This woman speaks the truth!
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posted
I'll put in my vote for community theatre! As I've told friends before, that's <i>my</i> church!
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As long as it's a fictional character and there is no specific dialog that refers to the character's weight, there's no reason why the weight of the actor should be a factor.
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posted
I like sitting around trying to learn guitar in a park with my friend
It's doesn't exactly satisfy the same niche as church singing though. And the feeling you get from singing with hundreds of other people who know the same few dozen songs is unique. (It's not quite the same, but going to a concert by your favorite band is good too.)
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Honestly, one of the things that turned me off to church singing is that lots of the songs are really boring, and we sang so many different ones, you spent all your time reading lyrics instead of enjoying the music.
Maybe I'll just start a band, and play some of that devil music: Rock and Roll! Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I more often than not these days absolutely love the singing. I used to be bored. I have no idea what changed - I know fewer of the words now than I used to.
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