quote:Most Jewish people would shudder to think of raising their kid without raising them in their religion.
Sadly, this is patently false. The majority of Jews, especially in this country, are raised with very little in the way of religion.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Oh, that makes sense. What would win that?
"Good ... OSC" was incindiary, but for a true explosion, I'd back OSC's post on the other side inviting people to submit names for an Ender book.
Let me go see.
---
Ah, well, looks like it was deleted. But I seem to remember 15+ pages in the first day. Getting to be the one with The Name = priceless. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Same goes for Muslims. You certainly won't find Muslims raising their kids without instructing them on their religion. And you're probably not going to get a comparative religion class in a muslim family. Yet no one questions that.
Prove that no one questions this.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Same goes for Muslims. You certainly won't find Muslims raising their kids without instructing them on their religion. And you're probably not going to get a comparative religion class in a muslim family. Yet no one questions that.
Prove that no one questions this.
Show me where someone questioned how muslims raise their children in this thread.
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posted
Adding qualifiers now? Your logic in your last post seems to be:
A) Jewish religion is heavily intertwined with culture, background, and tradition B) Muslims heavily educate their children in Islam without exposure to other religions C) No one questions either of these D) Thus Christians should be able to do this without questions either
First, it would seem irrelevant to your logic whether someone criticizes how Muslims bring up their kids in this thread or outside, as long as someone does in fact criticize it.
Second,
quote:Originally posted by RunningBear: But with children, they do not have a choice!
This is the greatest crime on this earth!
You are indoctrinating them into beliefs they may or may not have chosen given free will, and you are stealing their options away from them ...
I certainly could find Muslims who don't "instruct" kids in their religion. I knew a couple kids in high school whose parents were Islamic, yet they had been given a choice from an early age and had stopped practicing when they were around 16.
Are you trying to say that because you think Muslims would raise their kids without introducing the possibility of believing something different from their parents, other people should behave the same way?
quote:IMO, the fact that parents don't pass along a religious family life, and leave it up to the kid, is why so many people in our culture today don't understand religion, don't know what to believe. And if they don't know what to believe, or even where to start, they are most likely not going to try. Nor even think they even need to try to discern a belief. And I'm not sure, as a parent, I would feel good about believing in a religion, and not raising a child to believe in anything, or leaving it up to them if they feel like it.
I don't know anybody who doesn't try to discern what they believe in, who doesn't evaluate the possibilities that society places before them, even if they decide that "agnostic" best represents their position.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: No way!
The subjectivity of memory.
And I couldn't find it, either ... in two pages of threads. *sigh
Haven't been firing on full cylinders this morning.
Well, what about "Good ... OSC"? If that one was 15 pages, I'll quit speech altogether.
That was my guess, but I thought for sure some of the old-timers* could best it.
*'Old-timers', in this case, refers to the length of hatrack membership and not to chronological age. Especially with CT and rivka, who are both in their early 20s.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: That was my guess, but I thought for sure some of the old-timers* could best it.
*'Old-timers', in this case, refers to the length of hatrack membership and not to chronological age. Especially with CT and rivka, who are both in their early 20s.
>_> <_<
52 if I'm a day, sonny.
My top two votes at this point would be "Good ... OSC" and Thor's early sonata, named something like "OSC, I challenge thee" (First Edition: SS did a Second Edition that was quite sweet).
Who knows, though, given the wrenching fits my brain gives memory.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Adding qualifiers now? Your logic in your last post seems to be:
A) Jewish religion is heavily intertwined with culture, background, and tradition B) Muslims heavily educate their children in Islam without exposure to other religions C) No one questions either of these D) Thus Christians should be able to do this without questions either
First, it would seem irrelevant to your logic whether someone criticizes how Muslims bring up their kids in this thread or outside, as long as someone does in fact criticize it.
Second,
I was pointing out that the discussion has revolved around christians bringing their kids up in their own religion. No one questioned Jews or Muslims for doing so. Why? Jews and Muslims have their faith intertwined with their culture. I know Christians who have the very same thing. I was raised catholic, my whole family was catholic, most of our family friends were catholic, our religion was very much part of our lives. And my parents chose to raise me that way. Which I am grateful for.
Parents do not have to give their kids a comparitive religion course, nor should they. They should give their kids the kind of culture, family, and religious life they chose. Muslims do it, Jews do it, there is no reason why Christians shouldn't also be able to do it.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by RunningBear: But with children, they do not have a choice!
This is the greatest crime on this earth!
You are indoctrinating them into beliefs they may or may not have chosen given free will, and you are stealing their options away from them ...
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Children don't get to chose what kind of culture or family they get to be raised in. And parents shouldn't be required to raise their kids in a family democracy. If a parent decided to raise them in their religion, that's all a part of it. If a kid doesn't want to be in that religion when they grow up, they have the choice to do so. Children don't get those choices, the parents do.
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posted
I think "Good . . . OSC" was the fastest growing that I personally recall. Some of the posthumous baptism threads took off pretty fast, as did some other religion-related threads.
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quote:Originally posted by Nato: edit: this is in response to stihl1:
I certainly could find Muslims who don't "instruct" kids in their religion. I knew a couple kids in high school whose parents were Islamic, yet they had been given a choice from an early age and had stopped practicing when they were around 16.
Are you trying to say that because you think Muslims would raise their kids without introducing the possibility of believing something different from their parents, other people should behave the same way?
No, I'm trying to say that Christians shouldn't be criticized for raising their kids in their religions if they chose so. Especially if you're not going to criticize other religions for the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:IMO, the fact that parents don't pass along a religious family life, and leave it up to the kid, is why so many people in our culture today don't understand religion, don't know what to believe. And if they don't know what to believe, or even where to start, they are most likely not going to try. Nor even think they even need to try to discern a belief. And I'm not sure, as a parent, I would feel good about believing in a religion, and not raising a child to believe in anything, or leaving it up to them if they feel like it.
I don't know anybody who doesn't try to discern what they believe in, who doesn't evaluate the possibilities that society places before them, even if they decide that "agnostic" best represents their position.
posted
I'm afraid I know too many. And far too many who have rejected religion altogether because they had it forced on them at an early age.
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I have to admit that rejecting religion because it was forced on one at a early age sounds an awfully like blaming one's parents for things that an adult ought to take responsibility for. If someone decides that faith is not for them, a mature approach would be to accept responsibility for that and stop blaming the parents. It's like blaming one's messy house on being forced to clean one's room as a kid. It sounds ridiculous coming from anyone over 25.
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posted
Even as a reason, it sounds juvenile to me. Adults evaluate the world and come to their own conclusions, not react (either to cleave to the religion or sever ties) based solely or even primarily on what their parents said.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Same goes for Muslims. You certainly won't find Muslims raising their kids without instructing them on their religion. And you're probably not going to get a comparative religion class in a muslim family. Yet no one questions that.
Prove that no one questions this.
Show me where someone questioned how muslims raise their children in this thread.
Show me where anyone here is telling anyone else how to raise their kids first.
We get it, stihl1, you don't like Muslims. That doesn't mean you have to make up wild guesses about them. Typical Muslim life growing up is no different than anyone else. You've now gotten Jews and Muslims wrong, I urge you to please cease making assumptions.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have to admit that rejecting religion because it was forced on one at a early age sounds an awfully like blaming one's parents for things that an adult ought to take responsibility for.
It isn't necessarily a conscious thing for some people (I'm not talking about myself, here; I was raised in an atheistic household). It's just part of the equation underneath the surface.
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Kat, I really do think that people are influenced, for good or ill, by the experiences that they have had.
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kmbboots: I would say for good and for bad. It's not an excuse we can look at and say "that is why," but it can offer perspective to those who are looking to evaluate their perception of the world and ask "Why?" of themselves. I do not find it particularly useful for evaluating others without clear consent and full cooperation (hence it does not make a valid excuse in court, for example).
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have to admit that rejecting religion because it was forced on one at a early age sounds an awfully like blaming one's parents for things that an adult ought to take responsibility for.
It isn't necessarily a conscious thing for some people (I'm not talking about myself, here; I was raised in an atheistic household). It's just part of the equation underneath the surface.
That is a very good way of putting it. Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Adults evaluate the world and come to their own conclusions, not react (either to cleave to the religion or sever ties) based solely or even primarily on what their parents said.
I think you are interpreting this rejection as necessarily a conscious thing, which isn't what I think boots is talking about.
On the opposite side of the coin, the vast majority of people remain in the religion that their parents raised them in. If we can assume that many of them haven't really explored other options is this also juvenile?
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posted
I don't think that people blame their parents for giving them a bad experience and depriving them of religion. Certainly as adults they can seek out religion if that is what they want to do.
I do think that bad childhood experiences with religion are likely to discourage adults from wanting more of it.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: ... No one questioned Jews or Muslims for doing so. Why? Jews and Muslims have their faith intertwined with their culture.
quote: Especially if you're not going to criticize other religions for the same thing.
You're completely missing the point of my post. Let me try re-phrasing it. I'm not bringing up the quote by RunningBear because I expect you to agree with it. I'm bringing it up because you're making a claim in your logic which is pretty false to someone that has been paying any attention in this thread.
You're claiming that people haven't been criticizing other religions for indoctrinating their children. The problem is that this claim is provably false whether inside this thread or outside the thread in real life. There *are* plenty of people that *have been* criticizing them, both in this thread and outside, including RunningBear in this thread.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't think that people blame their parents for giving them a bad experience and depriving them of religion. Certainly as adults they can seek out religion if that is what they want to do.
I know some who do. But it's most often in instances where the parents rejected (or ignored) the same religion their children returned to.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: ... No one questioned Jews or Muslims for doing so. Why? Jews and Muslims have their faith intertwined with their culture.
quote: Especially if you're not going to criticize other religions for the same thing.
You're completely missing the point of my post. Let me try re-phrasing it. I'm not bringing up the quote by RunningBear because I expect you to agree with it. I'm bringing it up because you're making a claim in your logic which is pretty false to someone that has been paying any attention in this thread.
You're claiming that people haven't been criticizing other religions for indoctrinating their children. The problem is that this claim is provably false whether inside this thread or outside the thread in real life. There *are* plenty of people that *have been* criticizing them, both in this thread and outside, including RunningBear in this thread.
Where does anyone specifically criticize muslims, jews, or other religions that are cultural based, other than christian, in this thread? No where. The thread has mostly focused on christians raising their kids in their religion, and some people have claimed it's sooooo bad and it's a horrible shame that those parents don't give their kids a wider perspective instead of 'indoctrinating' them in their religion.
I used the muslim and jewish examples to show that in those cultures, religion isn't something seperate. It's not a choice. My point is, that applies to christians too. My catholic religion was just as much a part of my cultural, ethinic, family experience as a muslim, jew, hindu, whatever. It's not a choice that parents can't approach for fear of indoctrination or skewing their childrens minds. It's not a choice in muslim families, it's not a choice in jewish families, it's not a choice in christian families either. It's part of the whole family cultural ethnic value moral system ANY parent has a right to raise their kids in.
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We get it, stihl1, you don't like Muslims. That doesn't mean you have to make up wild guesses about them. Typical Muslim life growing up is no different than anyone else. You've now gotten Jews and Muslims wrong, I urge you to please cease making assumptions.
You're so far off and clueless it made me laugh out loud.
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quote:I used the muslim and jewish examples to show that in those cultures, religion isn't something seperate. It's not a choice.
Of course it is. As I alluded before, there are many Jews who raise their kids culturally Jewish, but not religiously. I know some people who were raised Muslim more as a question of culture than religion (relatively common in the US; probably not so much so in countries where Islam is the majority religion). And there are plenty of people who are culturally Catholic (for example) but don't do much religiously.
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quote:I used the muslim and jewish examples to show that in those cultures, religion isn't something seperate. It's not a choice.
Of course it is. As I alluded before, there are many Jews who raise their kids culturally Jewish, but not religiously. I know some people who were raised Muslim more as a question of culture than religion (relatively common in the US; probably not so much so in countries where Islam is the majority religion). And there are plenty of people who are culturally Catholic (for example) but don't do much religiously.
And for every one of those examples, I can show you examples that support my side. Big deal. It doesn't change my point that parents have every right to raise their kids how they see fit, including religion wise. For some, it's not a seprateable choice.
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quote:It doesn't change my point that parents have every right to raise their kids how they see fit, including religion wise.
I agree with that, for the most part. However, I disagree with the tone you have used throughout this thread, and I think your "supporting facts" aren't.
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posted
I agree with rivka. You are displaying an extreme amount of what seems to be asserting opinion as fact, stihl1. Considering there are people on this forum who have grown up in Jewish and Muslim communities, for example, your comments are at best disdainful and at worst dangerously warped. Comments like the following are not only attempting to insult as a debate tactic, but clearly show that you are unwilling to actually provide supporting data when your dubious claims are challenged.
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: You're so far off and clueless it made me laugh out loud.
You finding it funny proves nothing. Please explain how rivka and I are "so far off" in pointing out that neither Jewish nor Muslim families are as you have portrayed them with regard to passing on religion. When the facts of people who might have more experience than you do contradict the sweeping generalizations you have made about the whole of other religions or cultures, you have responded with "big deal" as your argument. Are you trying to dialogue with other people or are you dictating to them what you think they should believe? If the former, then you have to work on your technique. If the latter, then please see the TOS about disparaging other religious beliefs.
No one has told anyone else how to raise their children. You are arguing against something no one is debating.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: No one has told anyone else how to raise their children. You are arguing against something no one is debating.
That is not entirely true. RunningBear's posts are pretty strongly in that direction.
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posted
Then he can rail at RunningBear instead of trying to paint the entire conversation as an argument against Christian parents. The only thing he has contributed are a few insulting statements about cultures he obviously has little understanding of.
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quote:Originally posted by Jutsa Notha Name: Then he can rail at RunningBear instead of trying to paint the entire conversation as an argument against Christian parents.
That would show much better aim, I agree.
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Same goes for Muslims. You certainly won't find Muslims raising their kids without instructing them on their religion. And you're probably not going to get a comparative religion class in a muslim family. Yet no one questions that.[/QB]
Just as a matter of record, at least one of the kids in my world religions class in high school was Muslim.
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quote:It doesn't change my point that parents have every right to raise their kids how they see fit, including religion wise.
This is not actually true. I believe it would be illegal to give children psychedelic drugs, for example, which is required for some religions' worship. It would certainly be illegal to have sex with children, even for a religious rite. It would similarly be illegal to beat children in the name of religious purity, which you can find quite a few examples of. RunningBear and I just want to draw the line a little closer to sanity.
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King of Men, whose definition of sanity are you using? The last time I checked, there was no baseline for sanity regarding whether someone holds religious beliefs or not.
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quote:The thread has mostly focused on christians raising their kids in their religion
I'm sure pretty I was talking about religions and religious people. I was not aware that I was focusing on Christians. Do you automatically assume that people talking about generalized religion are really talking about Christians?
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quote:Kat, I really do think that people are influenced, for good or ill, by the experiences that they have had.
So do I. I also think that adults ultimately choose their own lives instead of just rebelling in general against what their parents did. We are ALL influenced by the experiences we have had, but ultimately the decision to get a hold a job, or have a successful relationship, or go to jail, or become a musician comes from the person.
In my total opinion of course: Rejecting religion because your parents forced you to go is lame. It is like growing your hair just because your mother doesn't like it. I think it's a very understable phase - like the hair thing - but if someone stops there then they are stuck in the mindset of a rebellious teenager. It is many things (not all of them bad), but it is neither adult nor mature.
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kat, As has been said, people are not talking about this rejection as anything like a conscious decision. Saying "I'm not going to do this just becausemy parents made me do it when they could." isn't a mature thing, but that is by no means a exhaustive representation of what is being talked about.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your take on this extreme case, but I think we would like you to consider the other, less simplistic ones that we are talking about.
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posted
I am utterly sincere. I am sorry that there is such a miscommunication here and that my posts have been so misunderstood by you.
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