"Last month seventeen year old Dua Khalil was pulled into a crowd of young men, some of them (the instigators) family, who then kicked and stoned her to death. This is an example of the breath-taking oxymoron “honor killing”, in which a family member (almost always female) is murdered for some religious or ethical transgression. Dua Khalil, who was of the Yazidi faith, had been seen in the company of a Sunni Muslim, and possibly suspected of having married him or converted. That she was torturously murdered for this is not, in fact, a particularly uncommon story. But now you can watch the action up close on CNN. Because as the girl was on the ground trying to get up, her face nothing but red, the few in the group of more than twenty men who were not busy kicking her and hurling stones at her were filming the event with their camera-phones.
"There were security officers standing outside the area doing nothing, but the footage of the murder was taken – by more than one phone – from the front row. Which means whoever shot it did so not to record the horror of the event, but to commemorate it. To share it. Because it was cool."
He goes on, at length, with skill and horror and honest confusion as to what, exactly, is so wrong with women that so many people in the world feel justified in treating them as less-than-human. He does not link to the video; he links instead to Equality Now.
I highy suggest everyone check it out.
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Certainly one of the better crafted, "rants" I have ever read. As for myself, I think a good place to start is to consider how I treat my wife, my mother, my sisters, and the women that I am in contact with on a regular basis.
I would not read Joss' rant and pick apart the minute details, a rant is not written with the intent of being a tight ship without holes. His reasons for writing are solid IMO, and the problem he speaks of is a tragedy that has gone on for centuries, heck even millenia. Whether it needs fixing is not something I believe needs discussion, but how it will be fixed does.
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The only problem I had with the rant was his belief that it boils down to "womb-envy."
Me, I think it’s fear. Too many men are afraid they are not strong so they bolster themselves by punishing the weak, just because they can. Too many men are afraid of how lust takes over their thoughts and makes them lose control so they subjegate what they see as the origin of that lust, either by punishing women for being attractive or by just raping them to get what they want. Too many men are afraid of how their friends and family will regard them if the women under their control try to defy orders and live for themselves. Too many men are afraid of life in general, and they banish the fear by becoming an object of fear themselves. And too many women agree with this and stand by as it happens.
I don’t think womb-envy answers it. I suspect Joss personally envies the womb because he marvels at the woman's strength and life-giving abilities, but lacks even the slightest fear of women that would help him recognize it in others. This is a Good Thing, and should be spread around.
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I think it's indicative of Joss Whedon's writing skill that I cracked a smile even through my anger/agreement/frustration. A wry smile (the trees).
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Next month Can't Stop the Serenity events will be held around the world. Partly we go to see "Serenity" on the big screen again and see our friends. But we also go to raise money for Equality Now. Last year the events raised over $65,000. I think we can beat that this year, and that's a hell of a legacy for a bunch of science fiction fans of a cancelled show.
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I think Mr. Whedon might be a little bit right about the reason this goes on. And I think that you might be partly correct, as well, Chris.
But I truly believe that what this sort of violence against women comes down to is that way too many cultures still, after all these millennia, teach their men, beginning when they are boys, that women are just lesser...that whatever god they worship doesn't like women as well as he (it's always a male god) likes men. That men are the complete version of the human being and that women are defective in some way and must be taught their place, by any means necessary. And if that includes killing a few that step out of line, well, that's okay too.
And before anyone accuses me of being ethnocentric, I'm talking about our culture...not our idealized culture, but the real world...here in the United States, as well. No, we don't have an ingrained tradition of "honor killings" here, thank goodness. We just have "domestic violence". I have known...personally known...men who have believed there is nothing wrong with slapping "their" women around if they "get out of line" because they "need to know their place", which is in the bedroom and the kitchen and on their knees scrubbing the floors.
And even many of the men in the US who would never, ever consider hitting a woman, much less killing one, still don't have any qualms about insulting women and ridiculing them and calling them ignorant...again, putting them in "their place"...if they dare to express an opinion contrary to their more "logical" male opinion. Or they'll talk down to women, just assuming that they won't understand...anything outside the home, really. This is so ingrained in the culture, still, that I believe that many men don't even realize they are doing it. But these, too, are insults to women, and they are still widely accepted as normal and perfectly acceptable here in the "enlightened" culture of the United States in 2007.
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along littlemissattitude's bent, there's also the gender wage gap between men and women in the united states—for the same job, women will generally earn seventy-six cents for every dollar a man would make in that job.
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I think there are probably several interlinking causes for the lesser status of women, with different ones having more or less sway in different particular cultures or individuals.
One of the more overarching ones is, I think, the widespread pressure on men to be successful. From a very young age many men are trained to think it is a measure of their worth to have money, power, and prestige. If they don't achieve this, then either it is their own fault, or someone else is to blame. Women then serve as both convenient scapegoats and as receptacles for rage at what has been denied them.
Not all men, of course. Thankfully. But it has not been uncommon in my experience to hear of or read about men who blamed women for making them do things or keeping them from being successful -- this is certainly common in stories of abuse in North American culture. I fear that a growing income disparity and stresses on the middle class will only exacerbate this.
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quote:And even many of the men in the US who would never, ever consider hitting a woman, much less killing one, still don't have any qualms about insulting women and ridiculing them and calling them ignorant...again, putting them in "their place"...if they dare to express an opinion contrary to their more "logical" male opinion. Or they'll talk down to women, just assuming that they won't understand...anything outside the home, really. This is so ingrained in the culture, still, that I believe that many men don't even realize they are doing it. But these, too, are insults to women, and they are still widely accepted as normal and perfectly acceptable here in the "enlightened" culture of the United States in 2007.
I do not believe the attitude you describe is truly "ingrained in our culture". It's unfortunately present in many of our sub-cultures, but smacking women around or trying to keep them "in their place" aren't acceptable in American culture at large.
All you have to do is turn on the nearest TV for, like, ten minutes to see what I mean.
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Rakeesh, there is an argument to be made that there are the visible trappings, the nods to the way things should be, that just decorate an underlying and pervasive structure which is firmly (and almost invisibly) unjust. I'm not in the space to make that argument, but it is there.
Of course, were I you, such vague handwaving would convince me of nothing! And I don't expect it to. I can't do better right now, though.
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quote:Rakeesh, there is an argument to be made that there are the visible trappings, the nods to the way things should be, that just decorate an underlying and pervasive structure which is firmly (and almost invisibly) unjust. I'm not in the space to make that argument, but it is there.
Something as subtle and delicate as you're describing, that I agree is present. Both in the numbers, and just in the way some things feel. Vague handwaving is unnecessary for persuasion on my part
But, just to be clear, what was being discussed and what I was disagreeing with was quite different. You're describing a spider web at noon, without even any moisture on it to mark it. I was objecting to a description more like cargo netting.
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quote:And even many of the men in the US who would never, ever consider hitting a woman, much less killing one, still don't have any qualms about insulting women and ridiculing them and calling them ignorant...again, putting them in "their place"...if they dare to express an opinion contrary to their more "logical" male opinion. Or they'll talk down to women, just assuming that they won't understand...anything outside the home, really. This is so ingrained in the culture, still, that I believe that many men don't even realize they are doing it. But these, too, are insults to women, and they are still widely accepted as normal and perfectly acceptable here in the "enlightened" culture of the United States in 2007.
I do not believe the attitude you describe is truly "ingrained in our culture". It's unfortunately present in many of our sub-cultures, but smacking women around or trying to keep them "in their place" aren't acceptable in American culture at large.
All you have to do is turn on the nearest TV for, like, ten minutes to see what I mean.
One of the first things I learned as an anthropology major was that every culture actually has two cultures: the ideal culture that everyone aspires to - or at least gives lip-service to aspiring to - and the real, lived culture.
In the United States, the ideal culture is that everyone - men, women, those of all ethnic backgrounds, those of all socioeconomic levels - are equal, and equally valued. In practice...in the real, lived culture...things are quite different, on all those counts.
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I see cargo netting, you see spider web. (We're not going to have a simple walk together.) I call it invisible because it generally has been made invisible to most people. It's easy to live your life without seeing it unless you have to. That doesn't make it any less strong, though, perhaps even moreso.
This is what Whedon references as well. I can't quote him directly, though, because the connection is currently overloaded. (You go, Joss!)
Anyway, I'd hold it is the job of years to discuss this well. It is something I had to go through statistics after statistics and much critical sociological analysis to see, and I am too fragile here and now to debate it, so I'll bow out for now.
I know this is annoying. I wouldn't if I could do otherwise and not have my weekend crumble apart, and I have a lot of work to do. It does make me sad.
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: All my life I've been taught that women are daughters of God, to be treated with nothing but love and respect.
And I belong one of those innately evil, sexist male God religions.
Go figure.
And so did I (I don't anymore). And while many (not all) of the men I knew in that religion believed, truly believed, that they were treating women with love and respect, they often said things to and about women that were fairly obviously designed to put themselves in a superior position and the women in an inferior position.
One example that I will never forget was the man who said that it was his wife's job to make him look good to his children at all times, even if doing so made her look stupid...and he used that word. Another was the way in which women's groups within the church could not do anything without getting a man's permission. Where's the respect there?
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quote:In the United States, the ideal culture is that everyone - men, women, those of all ethnic backgrounds, those of all socioeconomic levels - are equal, and equally valued. In practice...in the real, lived culture...things are quite different, on all those counts.
Now that you're being more precise, I have less room to disagree.
I do not accept for a minute, though, that you are capable of accurately judging the "real, lived culture" to the extent you seem to be describing. There are elements of the ideal culture you describe in the lived culture, and elements of the lived culture in the ideal.
quote:I see cargo netting, you see spider web. (We're not going to have a simple walk together.) I call it invisible because it generally has been made invisible to most people. It's easy to live your life without seeing it unless you have to. That doesn't make it any less strong, though, perhaps even moreso.
I was only making the comparison to illustrate the difference, not because I think the discrimination you described was a spider web.
Littlemissattitude was talking about thinks such as smacking women around to keep them in their place, publicly and privately humiliating them explicitly to keep them in their place, as basic elements of our culture. When compared to that, I think a <24% difference in wages that is also unfortunately an element of our culture is, to me, a spider web compared to cargo netting.
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I disagree, Rakeesh. If I could fix one immediately at the expense of the other, I'd fix the domestic abuse and disparagement issues, of course. But I think the wage issue is intertwined, because it makes it easier to believe that women and women's work is less valuable. Also, as long as women are making less money, on average, than men it's harder for many of them to feel worthy, or to feel secure leaving bad situations.
So perhaps I'd call it fishing line instead of a spider web. Still practically invisible, seemingly insubstantial, but when you get caught up in it really, really hard to break free.
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: All my life I've been taught that women are daughters of God, to be treated with nothing but love and respect.
And I belong one of those innately evil, sexist male God religions.
Go figure.
Well, all the cute girls at the train station are always trying to talk to me about God and this "sexist male God religion"... Go figure.
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Heh, I think I should have made myself more clear when talking about spider webs and cargo nettings. I think I should've used a different comparison.
I was just talking about how hard it is to see. If someone holds up a cargo net to you, you're gonna see it. Maybe even in the dark. If there's a spiderweb in front of you, well, you're not necessarily going to notice right away, is all I'm saying.
Domestic violence and constant casual contempt, public and private, is the easy-to-see cargo netting. Less-than-a-quarter wage differences are just as there as the spider web, but aren't always as easy to see.
I'm not trying to say it's easy to get out of the second one, and by the way, if you get caught in a spider's web, it's actually not easy to get it off, even for an adult. That stuff sticks and clings like nobody's business!
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quote:In the United States, the ideal culture is that everyone - men, women, those of all ethnic backgrounds, those of all socioeconomic levels - are equal, and equally valued. In practice...in the real, lived culture...things are quite different, on all those counts.
I don't think this is true. I don't know too many great American idealists who want to pay heart surgeons as much as ditch-diggers. I certainly don't.
One of the more confusing aspects of our culture is our self-deception, where our professed ideals don't match up to our true ideals, and neither align with our accepted practices.
This willingness to reach for platitudes may come from the democratic urge to be popular, not necessarily respected, but to enjoy the security of being counted on the winning side and fear of being on the unpopular side. And since the nation is so diverse and power is diffused in contradicting sects, we've become adept at articulating competing views, with conviction, depending on the day and whom we are are around. I think it's a downside of democracy, this impetus to be popular in order to survive, which ends up washing away our sense of character, degrades thinking, and further erodes our ability to address political realities. The result is that we'll feel more comfortable mouthing platitudes like, "everyone is equally valued," as opposed to than dealing with the complexities of a world where George W. Bush is worth more than I am. Because he is. Or at least, our values are incommensurable, in which case we would still not be equal.
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Ah, see, I thought you were saying the wage difference was comparatively inconsequential. Your explanation makes more sense. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Hmmm. Well, I would say that when compared with a widespread cultural acceptance of domestic violence and constant casual contempt for women, in public and private, that the wage difference is certainly less important, less urgent, but not inconsequential.
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Right, and I'm saying that the wage difference is part of and adds to the casual contempt for women.
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Men and women aren't the same, biologically or culturally. Women don't have penises, and men don't have maternity leave. They are different, the hard issues concern when these differences are relevant and beautiful.
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This is something I posted over on Whedonesque and really argues about what they said, but I thought I would post it here too.
Tone, intention, motivation, and "why" does matter. I was in a debate a while back that involved Xander and Anya where some posters claimed that Xander was condescending to Anya, and what I found interesting were the gender politics that reared themselves as the debate moved along. When another poster wondered whether this was a gender issue, he was summarily attacked by the other posters as someone who dismissed the views of others because they had a uterus, and the debate lost all momentum and interest because it became about whether certain posters had a penis or vagina, and whether that was the *sole* reason behind the posts that we saw in the thread. When I tried to get people past that into a useful discussion about gender roles (which may have been incredibly conceited or useful--the difference isn't something easily sussed out either--just saying), I was attacked in the same manner, and thats when I realized something. My absolute indifference to the tone and manner in which someone presents their ideas was incorrect, mainly because of where we are as a culture and as human beings. And thats where I disagree with Joss...
Joss once said: "[E]very time somebody opens their mouth they have an opportunity to do one of two things-connect or divide. Some people inherently divide, and some people inherently connect. Connecting is the most important thing, and actually an easy thing to do." There has never been a more true statement, something that has been said many times before, and yet, there is something interesting going on here. But first, a few statistics born from an article about "honor killings" in Pakistan:
"Karo-Kari is a compound word literally meaning "black male" and "black female," metaphoric terms for adulterer and adulteress."
"Of the victims almost 2,774 were women and 1.226 were men which means twice as many women lose their lives to this ugly social custom."
Not only is this not "only" about women (though it is horrible that more than double the number of women are killed by this brutal practice), its a social concern for morality that is part of a few extreme sects of religions across the world (it is not just Muslim sects that practice this social disease, it is part of both Hindu and Buddhist culture as well--and in many ways, we see these things in America too, we see people publicly branded and ostrascized, and though they aren't murdered literally, they are metaphorically--so its not just a Middle East or Islamic problem, its a world problem), and in that sense, I think its more a problem with culture, society, religion, and morality that is not confined to women's rights or the very justified battle for equality amongst the sexes. It is a full spectrum problem born of religious intolerance (and mostly has little to do with gender inequality), insipid motives, lack of knowledge, and the inability of people to recognize that no matter the case, murder in the name of honor achieves only dishonor.
Of course, there is a paradox that arises here, a paradox that makes our world stage much more complex than we believe, and it speaks both to the nature of Joss's intent and the manner in which we can solve the problem. I think there is something subversive (with all due respect) about the thread we create here (and I do mean with all due respect--as I have said, I have learned that that matters) because the while the ends that we speak and fight for are worthy and noble goals, the manner in which we fight that battle matters just as much. It's the same reason that torture does matter even if it helps us to win the war on terror, the ends do not justify the means, even when that goal is something worthy and noble. There is no doubt in my mind that the end game here is something worthy and noble, I have no doubt that the cause of women's rights around the world is something easily worth fighting for, but it does matter how we fight that fight.
You see, I think there is an extremism in this very thread, an elitism born of perceived righteousness and fighting the good fight. However, here is the paradox: for we want people to be moral, to treat women the way they deserve, and yet, that is the exact reason they fight us everyday. Because of threads like this, and whether we like to admit it or not, my liberal brothers and I are in the greatest of catch-22's. We want to spread our "enlightened" notions of peace and equality across the world, we want to see our vision of a world at peace and equal come to pass, and we want to be righteous while we do it. You guys remember when I said that the difference between conceit or arrogance and usefulness is very difficult to understand? Now you know how *they* feel, now you know how they could see us as conceited or arrogant instead of useful, and the insidious part is that this is a form of extremism that divides people. Thats all anyone sees anymore, a division between conceit and usefulness, and thats what I was incredibly wrong about. I thought it didn't matter how we did it, as long as we *did* it, but I was incredibly wrong because the ends never justify the means.
In the end, I guess I am Socrates to your Nietzsche Joss, a Nietzsche who said this:
"Socrates is the prototype of the theoretical optimist who, with his faith that the nature of things can be fathomed, ascribes to knowledge and insight the power of the panacea, while understanding error as the evil par excellence." Nietzsche in "The Birth of Tragedy"
Nietzsche would deride Socrates for failing to recognize the truth of existence, the truth of a life devoid of any meaning beyond what we ourselves ascribe to it, and while Nietzsche is one of my favorite philosophers, he was incorrect about that. Socrates held a faith in knowledge and humanity, one that drove him to invent the Socratic method, one that drove him to drink Hemloch, and one that caused his inevitable death. As do I. My faith in humanity knows that we can better, that the paradox why they fight us and our end goal can be one in the same, if we only recognize that humanity doesn't need the extreme, it doesn't need to be divided (as I believe this thread would), we need to connect. "Only Connect", as if I were Forster pleading with humanity and my faith to overcome the challenges we face, and in that sense, I applaud the goal. But I question the means...
As I, myself, should have done a long time ago...
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There's a rising anti-male backlash in this society too. If you look at that "ideal culture," women are idealized and are sacrosanct from abuse, whereas men are ridiculed regularly as dumb, sexist, fat, lazy, stupid, etc. Now I'm not saying that in reality men are physically abused as much as women, that'd be a ridiculous assertion, but men get an incredible amount of abuse in mainstream media that is patently ignored and even worse, is widely accepted.
Women bashing happens, not that I see it very often personally, but I realize that it does happen far more than it should, but it's widely unacceptable and is hammered on whenever it's seen in the public sphere. Male bashing happens, in the public sphere, and it's a matter of comedy and "well, duh" attitudes similar to what men are accused of doing towards women.
I agree with much of what's being said about physical abuse and wage differences, my argument pertains only to public views and verbal abuse and portrayals of men and women.
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I hear a LOT more man-bashing than woman-bashing. But man-bashing is just accepted and laughed at.
Not that it in any way negates the horrendousness of what Joss Whedon saw, but it grates on my nerves when it's treated as common knowledge that most men are stupid or beasts.
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quote:In the United States, the ideal culture is that everyone - men, women, those of all ethnic backgrounds, those of all socioeconomic levels - are equal, and equally valued. In practice...in the real, lived culture...things are quite different, on all those counts.
I don't think this is true. I don't know too many great American idealists who want to pay heart surgeons as much as ditch-diggers. I certainly don't.
One of the more confusing aspects of our culture is our self-deception, where our professed ideals don't match up to our true ideals, and neither align with our accepted practices.
This willingness to reach for platitudes may come from the democratic urge to be popular, not necessarily respected, but to enjoy the security of being counted on the winning side and fear of being on the unpopular side. And since the nation is so diverse and power is diffused in contradicting sects, we've become adept at articulating competing views, with conviction, depending on the day and whom we are are around. I think it's a downside of democracy, this impetus to be popular in order to survive, which ends up washing away our sense of character, degrades thinking, and further erodes our ability to address political realities. The result is that we'll feel more comfortable mouthing platitudes like, "everyone is equally valued," as opposed to than dealing with the complexities of a world where George W. Bush is worth more than I am. Because he is. Or at least, our values are incommensurable, in which case we would still not be equal.
Really? George W. Bush is entitled to more rights because...what? He's rich? He's the president? I don't think that's true. He might think that is true, and there apparently things he can do that we can't (I doubt anyone would give him a speeding ticket if he managed to get to drive during his term of office), and things that he is certainly entitled to (more security, because there are nutjobs out there who would like to harm him because of the office he holds, for example), but that is due the position he holds...not to him being George W. Bush, but to him being President. I doubt, however, that if he committed a serious crime (murder, rape, something like that...and I'm not saying he would, this is a hypothetical) anyone (aside from maybe Alberto Gonzalez and Carl Rove) would seriously argue that he shouldn't be held accountable for that.
But, if our ideal culture really believes that Bush, or Donald Trump or Bill Gates or someone like them are entitled to more rights than those of us who are not rich have, or that they shouldn't have to answer for their actions in the same way that the rest of us do, then the culture's ideals have changed much more than I had ever realized. Certainly, I am from a generation that was taught that being rich doesn't make you better or worse...it just means you have more zeroes behind the figure on your bank balance.
And, anyway, when I said that our ideal culture "values" everyone equally, you seem to have interpreted that as meaning "paid the same no matter what you do". I think that assumption says something very interesting about our society and what it really values. I didn't mean that, though. I meant that our ideal is that everyone gets the same rights, whether they are rich or poor and no matter what gender or ethnic group or socioeconomic group or religion (or whatever) they find themselves in. Same personal responsibilities, too, come to that.
Guess that makes me a Commie or something, but you know what? When I was growing up, equality wasn't radical, it was middle of the road.
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I went to check out Equality Now based on the rant. Unfortunately, I cannot support them, due to their classification of legal abortion as a human right.
Anyone know of another group working to stop such things not advocating the legalization of abortion?
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quote:Not that it in any way negates the horrendousness of what Joss Whedon saw, but it grates on my nerves when it's treated as common knowledge that most men are stupid or beasts.
It lowers the bar, and it's bad for the whole world.
____
As to why the President's life is not equal to mine. A little bit because he is rich, but mostly because he is president. If I take a bullet in the head tomorrow, it'll be sad because of lost potential. If Bush gets shot, forget the family and businesses he'll leave behind, there could be a world war.
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There are different hardline outcomes for the cultural acceptance of male-bashing as comedy and that gender institutionalism which Whedon demarcates. Doesn't make the former okay, and doesn't mean it is not worth talking about, but I think it is why some people are more focused on the latter.
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Edited to add: I'm quite looking forward to a thread which doesn't supplant the discussion of one by the discussion of the other.
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Focusing on the latter means the former should not be mentioned?
Should, say, French people not bring up their experiences with discrimination in America while Arabic people are talking about theirs?
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: If I take a bullet in the head tomorrow, it'll be sad because of lost potential. If Bush gets shot, forget the family and businesses he'll leave behind, there could be a world war.
I still maintain that this is due to the office that he holds, not the fact that he is George W. Bush, and therefore worth more than anyone else. What you say would hold true for any President of the United States, considering the current state of the world, not just for Bush.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: There are different hardline outcomes for the cultural acceptance of male-bashing as comedy and that gender institutionalism which Whedon demarcates. Doesn't make the former okay, and doesn't mean it is not worth talking about, but I think it is why some people are more focused on the latter.
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Edited to add: I'm quite looking forward to a thread which doesn't supplant the discussion of one by the discussion of the other.
I don't see it often supplanting the other, and it's not happening here either, I just think it's worth mentioning and keeping in mind when we're having this particular discussion.
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quote:Edited to add: I'm quite looking forward to a thread which doesn't supplant the discussion of one by the discussion of the other.
I don't see it often supplanting the other, and it's not happening here either, I just think it's worth mentioning and keeping in mind when we're having this particular discussion.
Lyrhawn, you, too. I did not say that discussion of one was supplanting the other. I said I was glad it wouldn't. [That is, we are in agreement, but you seem to be disagreeing with me, or perhaps I am misreading your words or your tone?]
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*taps mike
Helllo? Hello? Not working?
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Edited again to add: It is almost axiomatic in [Net threads on] gender issues that once you speak of one gender's issues, [another's] is raised in response, and the discussion then tends to be about one or the other in opposition. Which one wins as the Topic of the Day varies. I was seriously, honestly, unashamedly glad to see this discussion here, where I expect all have the maturity and available bandwith to continue pursuing whichever part of the conversation is most interesting to that individual.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Men and women aren't the same, biologically or culturally. Women don't have penises, and men don't have maternity leave. They are different, the hard issues concern when these differences are relevant and beautiful.
I disagree about women and men not being the same... Perhaps because I feel like a mutant whenever someone like John Gray >< or those Rules Broads or Dobson or the Pearls state that women are like this and men are like that... Things are not so simple and cut and dried. Yes, there are differences, but I doubt they are as pronounced as people think...
Joss Whedon is cool! He makes good points. But nowadays you get a mixture of women being put down traditionally and now people also look down on men. Both things bother me deeply. We don't need stereotypes, narrow definitions of humanity and useless relationship advice that relies on all of that. But this sort of thing happens on a relative b asis all around the world.
And just what is meant by the concept of Bibical submission anyway? Why do women have to submit to men in the first place? It's an annoying concept.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mackillian: along littlemissattitude's bent, there's also the gender wage gap between men and women in the united states—for the same job, women will generally earn seventy-six cents for every dollar a man would make in that job.
I'm pretty sure that this is not exactly true. On average, women make 76.5 percent as much as men. But this is a comparison of full-time workers as a whole, not a comparison on a job-to-job basis. I'm not sure how big the difference is if you compare men and women with the same job, but it is true that women often work in fields that pay less.
posted
Hmm. Well, all I can do is apologize then, CT. I misunderstood what you were saying. I did not read your statement as one being glad it wasn't happening here, but rather critical that it was happening here, since it seemed to me the discussion was perhaps heading in that direction. I was wrong, my mistake.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
My bad CT, I thought you meant what you said sarcastically, as if to say "at some future point I look forward to a discussion that doesn't do that." I didn't realize you were referring to THIS thread. (In other words, it seems I made the same mistake that Rakeesh did).
posted
Well, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I thought you were commenting on how the discussion had (at that point) begun to drift firmly towards discussing ANOTHER form of discrimination.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I still maintain that this is due to the office that he holds, not the fact that he is George W. Bush, and therefore worth more than anyone else. What you say would hold true for any President of the United States, considering the current state of the world, not just for Bush.
Whatever the reasons, we aren't equal.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: My bad CT, I thought you meant what you said sarcastically, as if to say "at some future point I look forward to a discussion that doesn't do that." I didn't realize you were referring to THIS thread. (In other words, it seems I made the same mistake that Rakeesh did).
Simple misunderstanding
No worries.
I was sitting here ruminating on how I had seen things go before, and then enjoying the peculiar sense of relief that we were discussing this here, instead.
I think it's a hot button topic, and a lot of us probably expect the worst. Shame, that, but natural.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Hmm. Well, all I can do is apologize then, CT. I misunderstood what you were saying. I did not read your statement as one being glad it wasn't happening here, but rather critical that it was happening here, since it seemed to me the discussion was perhaps heading in that direction. I was wrong, my mistake.
I'll quote below what I was referring to as ["specifically said the opposite."]
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Doesn't make the former okay, and doesn't mean it is not worth talking about, but I think it is why some people are more focused on the latter. [italics added]
Then
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Focusing on the latter means the former should not be mentioned?
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I was seeing the conversation not as drifting, but as moving on related issues in tandem. Thus the added comment in my prior post,
quote: Edited to add: I'm quite looking forward to a thread which doesn't supplant the discussion of one by the discussion of the other
posted
Jon Boy, it is not so much that women work in fields that pay less but that the fields pay less because women work in them.
When women went to medical school, the pay for pediatricians and general practitioners went down. Was the job of being a doctor to children now worth less than it used to be?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Jon Boy, it is not so much that women work in fields that pay less but that the fields pay less because women work in them.
Is there some evidence of that, other than the med school anecdote discussed below?
Also, how does danger factor into that field selection? Men make up the vast majority of workplace fatalities - the last number I saw was over 90%, but it was some time ago.
quote:When women went to medical school, the pay for pediatricians and general practitioners went down. Was the job of being a doctor to children now worth less than it used to be?
That depends on whether the number of medical school graduates increased (that is, did women displace men in med school, or did the med schools expand to accommodate women). An increase in supply of doctors could very likely lead to a decrease in salaries.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
During the 1800s, teaching went from a substantially male profession to one that was mostly female, and both comparative salary and status went down as well. I do not have a citation on hand, but if it would be compelling, I am willing to go digging.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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