quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: That depends on whether the number of medical school graduates increased (that is, did women displace men in med school, or did the med schools expand to accommodate women). An increase in supply of doctors could very likely lead to a decrease in salaries.
During the period of time katharina cites (early to mid 20th century), the number of physicians trained through the US decreased in toto. During that time the relative US population increased, leading to a shortage. Between 1900 and 1930, the ratio of physicians to US patient population fell from 173/100,000 to 125/100,000 in the first third of the century.
Presidents Kennedy and Johnson responded by promoting legislation that increased the number of medical schools and graduates by the end of the 60s. By that time, significant numbers of women were going into General Practice and Pediatrics, and a pay drop relative to other specialties had been established.
Women were not being added in addition to men in medical school, but as a whole, were displacing them.
(for more historical information on physician labor shortage, see D Blumenthal's editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine, 2004 (350:1780))
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Isn't it interesting how, when something horrific happens in another country, instead of focusing on that and condeming it and the culture that breeds it... We focus on the *relatively* minor injustices in our own culture. As if, somehow, the fact I get paid less than I would if I had a penis is equivilant to this poor woman being beaten to death for her choice of a husband.
Maybe it's because, in doing so, we feel like we can change and improve our own culture...
But as for me, I'm just happy to live in a place where an outspoken, bisexual, jew lovin' woman like me can live, unmolested, to earn my 6 bits on the dollar.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I think we focus on things at home because that is not only what personally affects but is also our sphere of influence. You know - think globally, act locally?
Pay inequality is both symptomatic of and contributory to degradation of women. It's relevant.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
When I worked there, the Social Security Administration was 85% female, and had the lowest paid workers of any Executive-branch bureaucrasy on the same administrative level. While people made jokes about high-paying government jobs, chunks of SSA employees still qualified for food stamps. Even the GS-11s (which I was at the time) were mostly female, and the low percentage of men that did work there were usually GS-12s or higher.
That said, I don't think I have ever really had to deal with sexism after college. My work environments tended to be so very female that little notice was taken of the men. We even joked about how free the women felt to discuss their hormone replacement therapies and things within earshot of men. If one of the men said something about it, the women would nod and smile and go on about their business.
It kind of reminded me of my poor dad. He'd yell and scream and turn red in the face about something that he didn't like that we did and we'd nod and smile and go about our business. It was like he was trying to be an ogre, but to us he was merely irrelevant.
So, I think that's how I deal with it when it comes up-- I just ignore it. I don't even ignore it consciously-- most of sexism I've encountered has been of the chuckle and shrug it off variety. Like someone making gestures and shouting at you in a language you don't understand.
I feel blessed that it's all been less than a speedbump in my reality, for the most part. Perhaps I merely lack the social skills to correctly interpret such things. Hmm.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I see no reason to stop talking about inequalities at home, even if it is worse elsewhere. I'd still like to maintain a high standard here.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I see no reason to stop talking about inequalities at home, even if it is worse elsewhere. I'd still like to maintain a high standard here.
Just like the kids starving in China doesn't make the TV dinner peas taste any better.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I doubt I could recreate them, actually. I didn't write down what I added or when or how much. I'd love to try, though. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Jon Boy, it is not so much that women work in fields that pay less but that the fields pay less because women work in them.
I agree. That's what I've seen. Cultural and political support for higher wages and better benefits follows white men. If white men started becoming elementary school teachers and nurses in more substantial proportions, those professions would start earning more. The respective unions would magically start becoming more influential. Pay-scales would increase. I think that's one of the reasons why so much of an uproar was being made when engineering jobs started going to Asia and India.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I see no reason to stop talking about inequalities at home, even if it is worse elsewhere. I'd still like to maintain a high standard here.
With such a startling disparity in the plight of women in third world nations in comparison to women in developed countries, doesn't choosing to discuss the inequalities at home instead of the more serious global events imply a lack of care for the rest of the world?
Even taking into account factors that would give us a bias toward discussing more local matters, it still seems to point toward a clear lack of empathy for events that lack the power to affect us more directly.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Baloney about the clear lack of empathy. I think it points to a clear lack of influence on the rest of the world but hope in influence on this world. Is it better to talk and do nothing or to talk and do something?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Mintieman: With such a startling disparity in the plight of women in third world nations in comparison to women in developed countries, doesn't choosing to discuss the inequalities at home instead of the more serious global events imply a lack of care for the rest of the world?
No.
---
This makes no sense to me. Doing the one enables and promotes doing the other, just as eating a well-balanced diet enables me to better address hunger in poverty. Were I starving myself, I wouldn't be able to volunteer long hours at the soup kitchen.
---
Edited to add: Maybe it's the "instead of?" It's a false dichotomy, and that rings false.
I can't make sense of your opposition, other than as rhetoric.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Also, fixing the inequity of power in the US would put more women in positions where they can do something about the situation of women in other countries, through influencing our foreign policy.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:With such a startling disparity in the plight of women in third world nations in comparison to women in developed countries, doesn't choosing to discuss the inequalities at home instead of the more serious global events imply a lack of care for the rest of the world?
Not unless you feel people are able to do only one thing at a time.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Also, fixing the inequity of power in the US would put more women in positions where they can do something about the situation of women in other countries, through influencing our foreign policy.
How would you suggest fixing it, apart from breaking up the notion that women do not make good leaders and should be voted for more often?
edit: Even breaking up that notion, how would you go about doing that?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I would like to see the problems fixed in both places, obviously...
But likening our problems here to the problems over there is a bit like:
"I'm dying of cancer"
"Oh, and I have a TERRIBLE headache!"
"But... Cancer"
"Oh, you don't know how bad this headache is!"
I think a big reason we focus in on the problem here is, if we focused on there, we'd have to do something. And that tends to get all bomby and explodey.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I disagree with your assessment of the reactions of people to troubles in foreign lands, to your comparisons of the two troubles, and especially to your posited solution to troubles in foreign lands.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think you are misreading and misjudging the motivations of people who want to change things at home.
It's like the Greenpeace person from the other day who stopped me on the street to sign up as a member. I'm all for whales, but I spent my pro bono money on something else that month and said sorry. She asked if I didn't care about whales. Putting effort into one area doesn't mean one is casting off lightly other areas.
There is much work to be done and many places to do it. You do a disservice to others and you obfuscate the truth when you disparage their efforts because they aren't working in your pet area.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
kath: I'm not disparaging anyone's efforts. I would like to make equal money as much as anyone else. I'm saying it's ridiculous to compare our plight to theirs WHEN THEIRS COMES UP.
Back to my previous example... I complain when I get a headache. And I do something about it. I take an advil and a sudafed and I drink some coffee...
But I wouldn't go into a Cancer thread and complain, and then compare my advil to their chemo. It's just a massive massive difference in scale.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: bb: actually, I think women are hot. Men are just sort of nebulously attractive.
Except Mario Lopez. HE is hot.
How about, "Men can be HAWT?"
Whenever Tiffany watches Saved By The Bell I have to wonder if she really just likes the show or if she has a thing for Mario Lopez.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You disparage it by comparing it to a headache. Income disparity is not as easily solved as a headache that responds to aspirin.
Is there someone who is being oppressed in another country posting here? Or is it a bunch of privileged first-worlders?
This isn't a thread run by people who have cancer - it is a thread discussing the denigration of women. Both subjects belong.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: But I wouldn't go into a Cancer thread and complain, and then compare my advil to their chemo. It's just a massive massive difference in scale.
And this isn't a thread of women discussing their own oppression under a militant regime.
We are talking about certain issues, not directly to people with those issues.. There is plenty of bandwith for both, just as a pain conference may appropriately discuss management of both cancer pain and headaches.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Of note, Pixiest, the OP link was about the situation of women in general, not just those under military regimes. This is a fight to pick with Joss, not with us.
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quote:Originally posted by Mintieman: With such a startling disparity in the plight of women in third world nations in comparison to women in developed countries, doesn't choosing to discuss the inequalities at home instead of the more serious global events imply a lack of care for the rest of the world?
Yes, if you mean a relative lack of care. As in, I don't care about things that don't affect me. I flatter myself that I have a pretty broad view of what does affect me, but I don't mind admitting I don't care very much what happens in the remote corners of Earth. Right now there is probably a tribe of bush people in Africa starving to death. It's a sad thing to think about, but nothing that happens to them will hurt or help me and mine.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Yes, if you mean a relative lack of care. As in, I don't care about things that don't affect me. I flatter myself that I have a pretty broad view of what does affect me, but I don't mind admitting I don't care very much what happens in the remote corners of Earth. Right now there is probably a tribe of bush people in Africa starving to death. It's a sad thing to think about, but nothing that happens to them will hurt or help me and mine.
More to the point, there's very little we can do for those people without an incredible amount of effort (which is not to say that such effort isn't worth it), whereas an issue like income disparity is something we can feasibly address as Americans. Should we be making the effort necessary to address those graver issues elsewhere? Perhaps. But that doesn't negate the fact that dealing with issues at home like income disparity is still a net benefit for humanity. Pix's argument is analogous to someone claiming that curing a genetic disorder that only affects a few dozen people worldwide isn't worth the effort because cancer kills millions of people each year.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
This thread is starting to make me feel lonesome.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I'm not playing the martyr. I'm trying to avoid a fight.
I appreciate that. I agree it's probably best to let this part of it drop.
I do register your objection, and I'll continue to mull on it long after this conversation. You have my promise on that -- sometimes I chew on things for a long time, especially if they are important.
And my sincere apologies for being snippy to you -- this was supposed to be a long holiday weekend up here, and I was in every day nonetheless. Plus other family matters pressing down. I feel like a four-yr old who still wants to suck her thumb. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Thanks CT =) I hope you get some time off soon. And family is always so stressful! I get in-laws this upcoming holiday weekend. But at least I won't have to work the whole time.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
and so the other day when i got called sexist for opening the door for a woman at least 40 years older than me, almost half my size and carrying 3 boxes that covered her field of view.
Makes me wonder if theres anything that is "chivalrous" or good mannered that i can still do int he world that isnt "sexist".
--- edit: No, imnot adding tot he discussion...im just remarking how hard it is to treat women good and not get castrated for it nowadays
Posts: 467 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Did she call you a sexist or someone else? I hold the door for people all the time, regardless of age or sex or whatever. Perhaps she was just grounchy over carring 3 boxes.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ecth, that sucks. I would hold a door for ANYONE carrying a bunch of boxes, and hope they'd do the same for me. And I thank people who do, regardless of gender.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Yeah. I hold the door for people a lot, even when it's just because I got there first. Sometimes men stop and take over the door-holding or refuse to go through until I do. This does not usually happen when they are encumbered, but... I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think most decent men struggle with what would be appropriate in that situation, because the norm is changing. Taking either course of action can lead to unpleasantness, and you usually have only seconds to decide.
once when I was trying to get some luggage to baggage check, I had a large suitcase fall over. I needed to use the big one because I had packed my clothes plus my husband's for a trip to Anchorage, so there was a lot of bulky winter gear in it.
Anyway, this suitcase fell over in a croswalk at the airport and while I struggled with it, a man made eye contact with me and sort of chuckled. I thought he was going to help me, but he didn't. He just walked past me horse-laughing.
If the laden woman was the one who called you sexist, I think she's probably as big a jerk as that guy. Sometimes, people suck. Suckage is not a gender-specific trait. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
When I was living in Hong Kong any act of chivalry was usually appreciated because it was unexpected I suppose. If I held the door open for a woman she'd usually stop for second to process what I was doing and then smile and walk through. There is not really a concept of chivalry in China.
Moved to Utah, and girls here expect to have their car door opened for them. If my mom and grandmother get together they often mull about how men nowadays are not as courteous.
"Stand whenever a woman enters the room." "Never sit down until the lady is seated."
I usually intentionally get their dander up by telling them that woman today need empowerment and by not doing these things they become less delicate and more self sufficient.
I can't help pampering MY lady however.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I'm having a hard time getting my mind around what effect you standing or not when I enter the room has on my self-sufficiency.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I'd think, but the guy is so uncomfortable having to stand up, what if someone wants to talk to me for a very long time. I would not want to inconvience him. I rather like the idea of mutual politeness and respect. I am torn between liking aspects of chivary, but at the same time being a bit frustrated with them. I would not want a guy of mine to think i am somehow... weaker than him so in need of protection. Respect and compassion would be nice though, i'd do that for a guy. And it would be frustrating if I wanted to fuss over a guy but he'd be mad about that for some reason, but I would not want to be in a relationship where I am stuck being submissive. That is not very appealing. These gender things never fail to confuse me... This could be why I do not have a boyfriend Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The standing up thing is just when you enter a room. They can sit back down again right away, I think. I mean, they don't have to stand the whole time you're in a room.
Or actually, at all.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
dkw: Its more the standing up is part and parcel to the mind set that a woman might need some sort of assistance even for sitting down. The point I believe is that any of the men standing would be willing to get the woman's seat if the man who walked her into the room is unable to do so. Or offering the woman their seat if there is no vacancy.
Olivet: I don't stand when my wife enters the room, but I do give her a good hug when she comes home or if I walk in the door and she is home.
When we bought a really nice TV stand she helped me put it together rather then saying that manual labor = a guys thing, LOTS of points for that. After about a year of marriage we seemed to have settled into moderately set roles. I cook meals and she puts furnishings for our apt together. Anything that needs lifting is my job, things that require hoping into the car and visiting a location go to her.
Obviously those things are subject to change based on being sick, or just being tired that day, but the arrangement works for us quite well.
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