quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I think ridicule can be a useful weapon against injustices of power when used in a very directed, controlled, and relatively uncommon way (think the satire of Jonathan Swift or Mark Twain). But in regular day-to-day use, it seems to polarize and exacerbate the problem, and it often comes off as small-minded, egotistic, and petty, rather than as a stinging and effective rebuke.
I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me. This seems to be a fault with me, though, not the world. *rueful
Agreed.
On all points. *equally rueful*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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The thing is, I'm still not sure what reason we have to believe that whoever posted that analysis of the Sun wasn't posing as a misguided Christian. Not that you friend was lying, but that someone may have been lying to him.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I linked directly to the post in question, you can read it for yourself. It's certainly possible that awesomestnerd is an atheist out for a laugh, but the dialogue looks pretty authentic to me; and what he posts, except for the part I quoted about the Sun not counting, is a pretty direct quote from ChristianAnswers.net. Are you going to argue that that site is likewise an atheist hoax?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:You were born perfect, now I don't mean perfect like muscly body and everything is the "normal" conditions. I mean perfect as in you haven't sinned. I doubt that anybody has come out of their mother and shouted the f word.
Poor unimaginative fool.
For the curious, "my" was the 2nd word out of my mouth, closely followed by "head" as my third.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fundamentalist Christians are probably the single most rightly ridiculed batch of people on the internet.
There are many among their number who argue tirelessly and zealotically about things that just make them look stupid. And many refuse to concede holes in their faith-based positions. There are few forums in the history of forumdom that don't have at least one story of 'that guy' who would do stuff like quote straight from scripture to prove that evolution is scientifically impossible.
These quotes are par for the course. A kind of indulgent laff-a-minute collection that resonates with the many people who remember these discussions. Truth be told, I often feel sorry for the christians who end up being represented by this sort of crap :/
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:There are many among their number who argue tirelessly and zealotically about things that just make them look stupid.
"Zealotically?"
quote:I guess the sun IS God after all...
:clears throat:
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas, A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At temperatures of millions of degrees.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Having read over quite a few posts on the forum in question, and having known a few (luckily a small few) of people with similar beliefs, the likelihood seems low that it is is a hoax. And even if that particular instance is a hoax, there are a lot of similar hoaxers out there who manage to put up startlingly complete facades.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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- Where is ridicule specifically mentioned in the User Agreement? I don't seem to see it.
- How is ridicule different than satire or farce?
- Was it okay to laugh at the Universe People who spammed hatrack a few years back saying that the lizard people were in control of earth?
And Tres - Yes, pointing and laughing at idiocy does reflect on the character of the person doing the pointing. Specifically, it shows that they find idiocy funny.
But, to redirect you to what my statement actually meant instead of what you wanted it to mean, if one speaks about rocks, their statements reflect on rocks - they don't have any reflection on, say, elephants.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
Actually, what I said was that telling someone they are being ridiculous and ridiculing someone are different.
Here's the difference:
Option one: You are being ridiculous, you should stop.
Option two: Ha! Look at <person> everyone -- what an idiot! He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork! I bet he drinks by lowering his head to a water dish and lapping stuff up! HA HA
And in option two could easily interject, "He looks so ridiculous" anywhere in that sentence.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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yes, that's true. But the point is that option one is a person speaking directly to another person, whereas option two is a person speaking to a crowd at large and encouraging them to mock the other person.
Think of it this way, if I pull you aside privately to point out to you that you are being ridiculous, I have not ridiculed you, but potentially spared you from ridicule. Whereas, if I just start mocking you publicly, I have not only ridiculed you, but encouraged others to do it as well.
Those are not the same, and, really, only one of those situations amounts to "ridicule."
Unless what you want to say is that ANY pointing out of a behavioral problem in another human being, no matter how that is accomplished, amounts to ridicule.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Ridicule, for me, is a part of being both defamatory and abusive, both of which are prohibited in the TOS.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I think my qualm was that people seemed to be saying that the meanings behind ridicule and ridiculous were more distant then I felt was right.
In retrospect if I had thought it over longer I don't think I would have argued this at all.
I suppose it just trips me up, as were I to say to a person in the presence of others, "You are being ridiculous and I'm not putting up with it." That that would then amount to ridicule.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule?
Well, is there any reason that you feel it would justified if you took whether he was right or wrong out of the equation?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule?
Well, is there any reason that you feel it would justified if you took whether he was right or wrong out of the equation?
I do not quite understand what you mean.
BTW thanks for picking up on that statement, I had dispaired that anybody would find the topic interesting.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I have to say that sometimes, when faced with an unbelievably ignorant and damaging opinion you can either laugh or you can fall into anger and depression. I think we laugh because it's a personally better option than constantly becoming angry and fighting.
This does not solely apply to fundamentalist religion but to any unbelievably ignorant stance.
Watching The Daily Show, for example, could be be a horribly depressing experience, but it's supposed to be funny. Instead of being angry at the stupidities of the world, we laugh.
CT said (and rivka agreed):
quote:I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me.
Is it possible that it's not only them becoming egotistical that causes a movement towards laughter instead of outrage is a side effect of getting tired of sustaining outrage?
I think it's part of the "If I don't laugh, I might cry" idea.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Second, I'm not sure that pointing out something that is ridiculous falls into the same umbrella as ridicule.
By your definition, ridicule is abusive and defamatory. Do you believe that one can point out and find humor in ridicluous statements made by another in a way that is not abusive or defamatory?
I feel that is possible, but I understand if you feel it is not.
To go back to an earlier example, I feel that I can call Ken Phelps a crackpot and laugh at his misguided attempts at swaying public opinion without feeling I've crossed the line into abuse or defamation.
I also find it interesting that no one mentioned the word "ridicule" until Seatarsprayan did some 15 posts into this thread, suggesting that the initial quote was "made up for purposes of ridicule".
I don't feel the initial post was ridicule at all, personally. Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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BB: Well, (not too familiar with that story, so going by your words) if I understand correctly, your dilemma was in determining whether Elijah was justified in his mocking. It seemed like the reason you thought he was justified was because (both) God existed and God did not disapprove of the act.
I'm just asking, if God was taken out of the scenario and Elijah was championing "generic god A" and his opponents were championing "generic god B", would either side be justified in mocking the other?
I guess as a follow-up question, would your answer change if neither existed, A existed, or B existed?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ok I understand what you are saying now. I really suggest however you read the story as well as understand the background of what prompted the contest.
Ahab becomes king of Israel, marries a Cannanite by the name of Jezebel. Jezebel worships the God Baal and attempts to convert all of Israel over to Baal worship. She persuades her husband Ahab to worship Baal as well as systematically kill all the prophets and church officials who worship the traditional Israelite God.
Elijah, who has been a prophet for some time, under command from God visits Ahab, curses the land and says that no rain shall fall, leaves and goes into hiding to escape Jezebel's wrath. Three years pass and we come to chapter 18. Try to read the event in its entirety if you would.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ok, I've read the passage. From what I can make out, there is only one line of mocking "27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is apursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." which I would roughly understand as Elijah saying something like "Call for your god, maybe he's just gone or sleeping."
Not exactly a cutting insult, but maybe it loses something in translation.
In any case, I reiterate my four questions and maybe add another. Unless I misunderstand, he orders the death of the 450 opposing priests of Baal right? Isn't it a bit odd to wonder whether they were ridiculed with justification rather than whether they were justifiably murdered?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Ahab becomes king of Israel, marries a Cannanite by the name of Jezebel.
Phoenician. Sidonian, to be precise. Not the folks we usually consider to be Canaanites. Hiram of Tyre, for example, was a Phoenician, and was on friendly terms with David and Solomon.
Also, he probably married her before he became king. It isn't certain, but it's likely.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Ok, I've read the passage. From what I can make out, there is only one line of mocking "27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is apursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." which I would roughly understand as Elijah saying something like "Call for your god, maybe he's just gone or sleeping."
Not exactly a cutting insult, but maybe it loses something in translation.
In any case, I reiterate my four questions and maybe add another. Unless I misunderstand, he orders the death of the 450 opposing priests of Baal right? Isn't it a bit odd to wonder whether they were ridiculed with justification rather than whether they were justifiably murdered?
I read it as taunting, it does not make sense in any other vein. I doubt Elijah was attempting to offer friendly advice to the priests seeing as how he would likely be executed if they had succeeded.
If you wish to discuss the priests execution make another thread. Executing apostates is pretty well laid out in the law of Moses, there are not however many incidents of taunting in the scriptures.
There are quite a few Psalms that describe the Lord as laughing at the wicked,
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