quote:Maybe the One Ring WAS the original horcrux!
It almost certainly is, don't you think? After all, the Ring keeps Sauron alive after he is dead, corrupts those who possess it, and can't be destroyed except through the rarest of means. It sounds almost exactly like Voldemort's horcruxes - except Sauron appears to be much more adept at making them. Voldemort may have gone with the "quantity" approach to horcruxes, but you'd definitely go to Sauron if you wanted a quality Horcrux.
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Sauron can't die. The destruction of the Ring doesn't kill him, but makes him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again. This happens because Sauron placed some of his power into the Ring, and that power was destroyed.
The Ring made Sauron both more powerful and more vulnerable than he otherwise would have been, but it didn't affect his mortality.
BTW, the Ring was created before the fall of Numenor, but Sauron did not take it to Numenor when he surrendered.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Sam was tempted, but overcame the temptation.
For the brief time he carried it, yes. If he had had to carry it as long (or longer) than Frodo did, would he have lasted indefinitely? Evidence in the text points towards "no"...the ring wears out any mortal in the end. Some it just needs longer to work on.
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quote:Sauron can't die. The destruction of the Ring doesn't kill him, but makes him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again. This happens because Sauron placed some of his power into the Ring, and that power was destroyed.
Where does it say this in LotR?
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posted
At the Council of Elrond Gandalf runs through the choices, including that destroying the Ring would "make him so weak and insignificant that no one can foresee him rising again."
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posted
Ahhh... so perhaps it operates differently with immortal minor gods. Still sounds like a horcrux though...
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posted
It has a lot of similarities. HOwever, there are a lot of different rings, and they all extended life while making their owners more powerful.
Also,, in the Silmarillion it goes into better detail regarding Sauron's nature, although he is a very minor player at that point.
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posted
This is the most geeky thread I have seen in a long time. I love it!
quote: If Gandalf and Dumbledore met they'd spend half an hour doing the ol' mirror routine before either of them could figure out they weren't the same person.
Thanks for forcing me to spit my drink through my nose!
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posted
What are some other examples of a device where someone puts their soul/essence/power (or part of it) into an object, making them stronger/immortal/etc.?
The One Ring from Tolkien
Horcruxes from JKR
in the book Taran Wanderer, a magician put his soul in his finger, then cut off and hid that finger.
In D&D, there's a spell called Magic Jar which lets you put your soul into a jem.
What are some more examples?
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posted
There are some Russian folktales that have some wizard/magician placing his soul in some object outside of his body.
Here is an excerpt from a Wickipedia article on "Koschei":
"Koschei cannot be killed by conventional means targeting his body. His soul is hidden separate from his body inside a needle, which is in an egg, which is in a duck, which is in a hare, which is in an iron chest, which is buried under a green oak tree, which is on the island of Buyan, in the ocean. As long as his soul is safe, he cannot die. If the chest is dug up and opened, the hare will bolt away. If it is killed, the duck will emerge and try to fly off. Anyone possessing the egg has Koschei in their power. He begins to weaken, becomes sick and immediately loses the use of his magic. If the egg is tossed about, he likewise is flung around against his will. If the needle is broken (in some tales this must be done by specifically breaking it against Koschei's forehead), Koschei will die."
I hate to say it, but it looks like the Russians invented this idea first!
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quote: Frodo failed! He fell to temptation and was corrupted! The only reason the Ring got destroyed in the end was because Fate ensured Smeagol was around to bite Frodo's ring finger off before toppling into the cracks.
...but he succeeded by earlier taking pity on Gollum.
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quote:And furthermore, Galadriel's explanation never mentioned resisting temptation as a way to exercise the ring's full power. Quite the opposite.
Well, duh. The point was strength of will, which can be used either to resist the Ring, or to command it. Plainly, Frodo has vast amounts of strength-of-will. I can see you're right about failing in the end, but still, he is clearly the mortal character best able to resist the effect - recall that Galadriel is strongly tempted from holding the dang thing for two minutes; Frodo carries it around his neck for months on end.
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posted
But Frodo clearly couldn't use it so well cuz he got beat up by Gollum; didn't burn Gollum dead or something like that.
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posted
And the trick with putting your heart in a separate place is fairly common in European folk tales.
Edit: Which, indeed, is where Tolkien was deliberately fetching his inspiration, so it is perhaps not too surprising.
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posted
Again: Resisting the One Ring for a long time was never given as the key to commanding it. Having innate supply of personal power, like a Wizard/Elf Lord/Numenorean type was also a factor. Hence Galadriel's reference to Frodo's need to become much "mightier".
The strength of will referred to in this case refers to the exercise of magical power, not just Frodo's stern moral backbone and inborn halfing toughness.
If he had the knowledge and power that Galadriel, Gandalf, etc had...he could have done far more with the ring. But he didn't.
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posted
Yup. The power that Frodo had inside him was enough to let him become another gollum with the ring, but that's about it.
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posted
Exactly, which is why the least of all peoples were the only ones who could (somewhat) safely handle the Ring, as the great "magic" users of Middle-earth would be able to tap more of the power of the Ring and thus be more tempted.
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posted
One more comment as "The One Ring" as a Horcrux.
I can see it now.
Frodo visiting the elves happens across a rare Evil book in the library. Glancing through it, and going into more and more details, suddenly he screams...
"A basilik fang! A stupid basilik fang would have destroyed it? No Mordor. NO F'n Mt Doom. No stupid dry Lembas coming out of my ears!!!!
Gandalf you #@$@#$@#!!! Haven't you ever heard of RESEARCH!"
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posted
In fairness to Gandalf, I believe that book was in the Restricted Section, and Madam Pince wasn't buying his forged teacher's note.
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posted
There's a whole slew of LotR vs. HP matches that would be fun to see.
Gandalf vs. Dumbledore. A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor. A Cave Troll vs. Grawp. Wormtongue vs. Wormtail. The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest. Shelob vs. Aragog. Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny). Gollum vs. Kreacher. A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
Someone should do a graphic novel or something.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think the plural is Maiar and the singular is Maia. Just like the singular is Vala and the plural is Valar. Just sayin.
I wonder if that means the singular of Eldar is Elda?
Yup. It is.
I am also really enjoying the incredible geekiness of this thread.
quote:Gandalf vs. Dumbledore. A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor. A Cave Troll vs. Grawp. Wormtongue vs. Wormtail. The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest. Shelob vs. Aragog. Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny). Gollum vs. Kreacher. A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
In answer:
Gandalf vs. Dumbledore.
Gandalf is the clear winner here. Dumbledore may be awesome, and a powerful wizard. But Gandalf is a powerful wizard and a minor god to boot. I just don't see Dumbledore winning that. Of course, I really can't see a scenario where they'd fight and not just sit down and laugh with each other over a cup of tea.
A Ring Wraith vs. A Dementor.
Ring Wraith. Ring wraiths and dementors both have fear stuff going for them, but ring wraiths have a lot more than that. They have the power of the nine rings, they have morgul blades, their fell-beast rides, etc. All dementors have going for them aside the fear thing is the soul sucking kiss. Cept I'm pretty sure wraiths don't even have souls to suck anymore (probably open to debate).
A Cave Troll vs. Grawp.
That one's a tough call. I think I'm gonna have to go with Grawp since he went head to head with not one, but two fully grown giants that were around 20 ft tall. Cave trolls top out at around 16 ft and are considerably dumber than the giants of HP (which is saying something).
Wormtongue vs. Wormtail.
Wormtail. He cast a spell that killed 13 people. One spell! Wormtongue hasn't shown ability to do much more than talk Theoden into a stupor and backstab Sarumann.
The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest.
The Old Forest. No contest. Hell, Old Man Willow all by himself could take on the Forbidden Forest!
Shelob vs. Aragog.
Shelob. Unless Aragog's family joins the fray and then it's Aragog by pure numbers.
Smaug vs. A Hungarian Horntail
Smaug. No amount of work by the Ministry of Magical Creatures could hide the existence of the Great Wryms of Middle Earth. They are way smarter, way more powerful and way harder to kill than the dragons of HP. Smaug would roast a horntail in a picosecond.
Eowyn (protecting Theoden) vs. Molly (protecting Ginny).
Molly. Eowyn, while awesome, is still just a girl with a sword. Molly has a crapload of spells up her sleeve. But again, can't concoct a situation where they'd go at each other.
Gollum vs. Kreacher.
Kreacher, unless Gollum has the ring, but even then it's iffy, Kreacher'd probably win. Kreacher has all the magic of the house elves. Gollum's just a corrupted hobbit ancestor.
A Warg vs. Lupin (in wolf form)
A warg. James as a stag and Serius as a big black dog were able to control a wolfed out Lupin. A warg would shred him. Now a wizard Lupin would win hands down.
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posted
I agree with you on every match-up except maybe Lupin vs. Warg. I thought that Serius and James could control Lupin because they were his friends and knew how to handle him. I don't think that they overpowered him.
Regarding The Old Forest vs. Hogwart's Forbidden Forest: I was originally going to say Fangorn, but I figured THAT would really be no contest.
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posted
You guys do realize this is how really bad movies get made...
I can't decide if I want to completely give in to my inner nerd and love this thread or run screaming and pretend to be cool.
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posted
Re Shelob vs. Aragog: Shelob has a whole bunch of descendants as well. And besides, we should really be comparing Aragog and Ungoliant, not Aragog and Shelob.
Re Hill Troll vs. Gorp: Why are you comparing a ME troll with a PV giant? Both worlds have both trolls and giants, and I'd say they're probably pretty evenly matched.
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posted
Ungoliant isn't a fair match for Aragog. She was pretty much a demon in spider form that devoured light itself. Aragog is just a giant spider, and an old one too.
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posted
Just like Gandalf isn't a fair match for Dumbledore, and Smaug isn't a fair match for Norberta.
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posted
It's actually kind of an interesting comparison. All of the removed, powerful characters from LOTR would mop the floor with their equivilents in HP, but all the more average people in HP would destroy all the more normal characters in LOTR.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: It's actually kind of an interesting comparison. All of the removed, powerful characters from LOTR would mop the floor with their equivilents in HP, but all the more average people in HP would destroy all the more normal characters in LOTR.
That's deep man....
(In all seriousness, I think the literary explanation for this has a lot to do with the fact that the HP books are about how great events relate to the title character, whereas LOTR focuses on the events leading to the culmination of centuries of strife and warfare. In LOTR those who brought about victory were, for the most part, of little reckoning in their world (at least until all was said and done). From a wide perspective, in LOTR we see everything in proportions great and majestic. In HP the audience regards it all in how it relates to a pubescent teenage boy. There's really not all that much grand about that!)
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Just like Gandalf isn't a fair match for Dumbledore, and Smaug isn't a fair match for Norberta.
Yes, but in the case of Ungoliant a closer match exists (ie. Shelob).
I reached the same conclusion as MrSquicky when I was making the match-ups. The fact is that all of the regular people in the wizarding world of HP are... well, wizards. Whereas in ME only certain people have any notable magical powers, but those that do are immortal and/or semi-divine. So yes, your average HP person (not counting muggles, of course) can easily beat your average LotR person, but the powerful entities in LotR are peerless in HP.
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I think it would depend if there was a full moon out, and if Lupin had access to Wolfsbane potion. As a wizard, Lupin would demolish the warg. As a feral werewolf, he would be owned, as he can't overpower the warg with brute strength. With the potion, Lupin can think clearly, and I'd give him an even chance.
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posted
Also, I'd say that the Forbidden forest would win, but I would include all the creatures that reside in the Forest, as I believe them to be part of the forest itself.
How's this for a fight: Hogwarts vs. Barad-dur.
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posted
In that case you'd have to include Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest. Second we don't really know what all lives in the Old Forest, some pretty scary stuff by the account of Tom Bombadil. Third the trees of the Forbidden Forest haven't shown any real sentience per-se the way the trees of the Old Forest have. So when I said Old Forest hands down I was thinking the OF would pretty much just go in and knock over all the FF trees, much the way the Fangorn Hurons pretty much ate the orcs (the Fangorn and the OF were once part of the same world forest and both still have trees old enough to remember it). So even though the FF has centaurs and unicorns and Aragog's offspring and all that, I'd still give it over to the OF. Those trees are scary, plus Bombadil can kick anything's butt.
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quote:How's this for a fight: Hogwarts vs. Barad-dur.
That rests on whether we include Sauron (and in what state of power) and the ring wraiths in Barad-dur. If we do, then Hogwarts doesn't stand a chance, if we don't, then the wizards of Hogwarts will simply mow down the orcs of Barad-dur. Sauron with the one ring alone could just about take out Hogwarts, seeing as, until the ring was removed from his finger, he was mowing down the last alliance.
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: That rests on whether we include Sauron (and in what state of power) and the ring wraiths in Barad-dur. If we do, then Hogwarts doesn't stand a chance, if we don't, then the wizards of Hogwarts will simply mow down the orcs of Barad-dur. Sauron with the one ring alone could just about take out Hogwarts, seeing as, until the ring was removed from his finger, he was mowing down the last alliance. [/QB]
I'm not actually including any of those. No wizards, no Orcs, no Sauron, no nothing. Hogwarts is a living castle (or close to living, anyway), and Barad-dur has it's own evil power. Both have some capability to defend themselves.
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