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I ran across a blog that links to a story about how horrible education is for today's American students. The article's author concludes the United States is in danger because the next generation can't think properly to continue as a democracy.
Knowing the relative age here, I thought it would be of interest.
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Well, it's certainly not a news story. It seems to me the guy is just like many others, harping on how stupid or ignorant his fellow citizens are (while excepting himself, of course).
The truth is, it's not an American thing. If that guy strapped on a jetpack and flew to any city or community on Earth and picked five schlubbos at random, chances are they would dramatically fail to measure up to his vaunted standards.
Chances are he'd need to, say, take his jetpack to one of them to be serviced, though.
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Numbers would be nice, but how can one objectively measure one generation's average intelligence against that of another? I do not believe people are getting dumber, it's just that there is a decrease in the need to apply yourself. Over here, we have had one or two major reforms in the style of teaching. Now we are starting to notice that this produces pupils who are very skilled at producing nice and colourful reports on any topic, but since they gather their information straight form the internet, they have little understanding of the subject they wrote about. One of the worst examples of general ignorance that I've heard is the fact that a vast majority of the children doesn't know that milk comes from a cow (most often, that is). They think it just comes in cartons. But at the same time these children have no trouble memorizing all the names of the 300+ different Pokémon. Go figure...
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In all seriousness, I suspect that the current generation of children would crush most previous generations in almost every modern academic subject if you could go back in time to test them against one another. After all, there have been generations in the past where most kids couldn't even read and didn't go to school - yet American democracy survived and thrived.
I'm sure there are certain subjects where the modern generation would fail miserably in comparison to older generations, but those would be mostly areas that aren't as important to modern life as they were in the past. I bet the average kid would do poorly in their knowledge of farming, for instance, whereas I'd bet kids of the 1800's might get high marks in that category.
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quote:Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo: One of the worst examples of general ignorance that I've heard is the fact that a vast majority of the children doesn't know that milk comes from a cow
Why would they? I'm asking seriously -- most "city kids" have probably never been near a farm and I've certainly never seen "where foods come from" in a curriculum. It's one of those things that was obvious in the past and never needed to be taught, but isn't obvious any longer. It's not a mark of the kids being stupid if they don't know something that they have had no reason or opportunity to learn.
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Right. There is a difference between "stupid" and "has a different body of knowledge." They are not equal.
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Do you remember everything you read in children's books, MEC? I can't recall reading about dairy farmers in any children's books.
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So far in my son's books we've encountered a lot about farm animals and the sounds they make, but nothing about milk or eggs (or bacon or beef, for that matter).
As the kids get older I'm sure that will show up in some books (I know it's it the Little House on the Praire books, for example) but there also will be more choices for books and not everyone reads the same ones.
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There's a freaking cow on our milk cartons. There's not much that can go wrong, unless they're confusing ground beef with milk, which would be entertaining... Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I am responsible for putting in reading scores from a Standardized test called DRP. We use this information (that students take at the beginning of the year) to place our lowest performing students in our Read180 program.
*side note: Our average students on Read180 raise their proficiency level by at least two grades, and many raise their level to 8th grade or beyond. We know this because of the Read180 tracking and the end of year DRP test we give.*
Our school is considered one of the best performing schools in our district. Our district is a good district compared to the state.
50% of our current crop of 8th graders read at or below 4th grade reading comprehension with 90% understanding.
Last year only 33 percent were at or below 4th grade level. Maybe this year is just an anomaly, but I still think 33% is phenomenally bad.
I have noticed over the last three years more and more students are getting the high scores. We have close to 8 kids with near perfect scores and many reading at high school and college levels.
There are still many students reading at grade level, but I am astounded by how many are advanced readers and discouraged by the vast numbers that are far below their potential.
It is as if the smart are getting smarter and the poor performing are filling up the base. Of course 2 or 4 years is hardly enough time to see a trend, and I am only looking at one school.
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My parents, for what it's worth, think that school has gotten significantly harder these days. Kids may not be brighter, but they're being challenged more.
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Oh, no, those are actually made out of the animals depicted. Although there was a scandal a few years back--Nabisco was using elephant meat in their tiger crackers. There was a massive recall.
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I'm pretty sure my mom teaches a book called "Where Food Comes From." She also teaches the chicken or egg book, and several other farm books. They also take all of the kids in our school system to a farm, that has added animals for that day, beyond it's normal working hay and beef.
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Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.) It's pretty standard around here... I think it's part of the social studies and science curricula, and they tie it in to language and math too.
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Okay, I'll admit that the example of the cow isn't very good. I'm not saying that this is something everyone should know. What I really wanted to point out is the fact that most kids these don't seem to want to know these things. To the city kids (and even the country lads and lasses) the origin of dairy products may not be very relevant, but I'd like to see children taking an interest in the underlying principles that provide all the luxury items that consume so much of their attention.
As a child you should view the world with a sense of wonder (yeah, I know it's a cliché...), which to me means that one should actually wonder "why...." or "how..." and try to find the answers yourself. Mental Adventure and exploration and such... In stead, these days more and more children seem to perform only the tasks they are given, and preferably with results that'll just barely get you a passing grade. (not that I haven't been quilty of exactly this behaviour once or twice) In this sense I tend to agree with one of the statements from the article in the OP: "the more a student is tested the less they are able to learn." There is a (subtle) difference between studying to pass a test and studying because you want to actually understand a subject.
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quote:Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.)
Nope.
Of course, I grew up in the Texas Panhandle where there aren't any such farms, due to lack of water.
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That has a lot to do with what goes in the home (or the place they spend their time when they're not at home) BEFORE school age. We have a child care crisis in this country, and one of the results is an awful lot of kids being placed in bad daycares that don't really support the kind of question and answer/exploration that is essential to developing a love of learning.
But more than that, I think your sample is biased. There are many kids who DO want to know, want to learn, want to understand. And there are teachers, classrooms, schools that encourage that. Look at the kids of Hatrack. Look at the teachers of Hatrack. I think people underestimate kids a lot sometimes. Kids still have the capacity to learn-- it just depends on the opportunity they are given, not only at school, but at home as well.
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I think the education system needs to be restructured, but i doubt this will happen anytime soon.
Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
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Noemon: Touche. Although my mind is curious as to what conjectures, given a kid that hasn't figured out where milk comes from, what that kid would guess as to the origin of Fruit Loops or Animal Crackers.
Actually, maybe I'm more curious about milk in the first place. Surely they don't think its still freshly squeezed from their ... initial source of milk? Or do they think its more of a mixture from interested parties?
Or do they just drink it without thinking about where it comes from, which would be bizarre. Or maybe thats a bizarre idea just because I grew up in a Cantonese family and eating random food from dim sum carts without finding out what its made out of is a very very bad idea Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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OK, first of all it's not an 'article'. At least, not a news article. It's just some guy ranting about how stupid kids these days are (and indirectly discussing how smart he is).
Second, learning for its own sake? Not really a very big deal. All of the learning in the world never accomplished squat. Better an ignorant mechanic than a wise diletante.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.) It's pretty standard around here... I think it's part of the social studies and science curricula, and they tie it in to language and math too.
Nope. We had lots of field trips -- to the State Capitol building, to the symphony, to the science museum -- but no farms.
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Our show farm started when you would have been in college DKW (I'm pretty sure the person who organizes it is your age) which also made it too late for me to go, though our class went to a few farms they weren't set up for that purpose. The farm I am talking about has over 100 people between 12 and 90 on the two days of the festival. About two thousand kids go through. In the past I've always helped with horses, dogs, or wagon rides but this year I think I'm going to take my loom and a spinning wheel to show the kids.
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I kind of think that article is pure bunk, but what's wrong with learning for the sake of learning? What's it to you if a person wants to learn Latin or Ancient Russian or Aramaic or some sort of weird random form of astrophysics? If it gives them enjoyment then it's accomplishing something.
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Oh, also, Mister Rogers went to all kinds of places and found out where things came from, how milk is processed, how yogurt is made, how mushrooms and beets and apples are grown and harvested, etc. That may be the source of my earliest information on where food comes from, I'm not quite sure; I don't think I ever remember learning that...
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: OK, first of all it's not an 'article'. At least, not a news article. It's just some guy ranting about how stupid kids these days are (and indirectly discussing how smart he is).
Second, learning for its own sake? Not really a very big deal. All of the learning in the world never accomplished squat. Better an ignorant mechanic than a wise dilettantes.
I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
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quote:I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
How many mechanics do you know, kmbboots? Of the five I've worked with for the past few years, all of them are what I (nerd) would call very ignorant, at least outside their own field and interests.
But when my car starts making a clunky noise, I don't dig deep in my head to fix it, I give one of them a call. If they're having some sort of computer trouble, they call me.
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quote:I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
How many mechanics do you know, kmbboots? Of the five I've worked with for the past few years, all of them are what I (nerd) would call very ignorant, at least outside their own field and interests. But when my car starts making a clunky noise, I don't dig deep in my head to fix it, I give one of them a call. If they're having some sort of computer trouble, they call me.
People are generally, to some degree, ignorant outside of our fields of interest. You, by your description, are ignorant of how to fix your car. You mechanic, I hope, is knowledgeable enough that your brakes don't fail.
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Well, that's precisely the point I was making and why I get so irritated when people go on about how stupid the 'common' man is.
But anyway, the mechanic can still be very ignorant and yet be a great and safe mechanic:) I thought that was a given.
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If you are lucky enough to get it delivered, "That funny man who comes by every-day. Mommy asked me to call him Uncle Irv, and not tell daddy how he helps her clean the big bedroom every week or so, after sending me to the store for candy."
Its only vitally important to know where your milk comes from when you go out to milk the Bull.
Seriously, with the nervous nature of the generic parent when it comes to death and sex, having a class that discusses where Milk, Eggs, and Bacon come from might get banned.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well, that's precisely the point I was making and why I get so irritated when people go on about how stupid the 'common' man is.
But anyway, the mechanic can still be very ignorant and yet be a great and safe mechanic:) I thought that was a given.
I think perhaps you are conflating "ignorant" with "uncultered" or "stupid". Ignorant simply means that someone has no knowledge or experience about something. When you are using the word "ignorant" it is helpful to know ignorant of what. A good mechanic would not be ignorant of how a car works or how to fix it. He may be ignorant of, say, genetics or Russian literature.
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quote:People are generally, to some degree, ignorant outside of our fields of interest. You, by your description, are ignorant of how to fix your car. You mechanic, I hope, is knowledgeable enough that your brakes don't fail.
Here's the thing: Mechanics have other roles that may be even more important than their jobs as mechanics. They are parents, friends, citizens, and just human beings in general. Each of those roles requies it's own sorts of expertise - and that is the sort of expertise we are responsible for teaching kids in school. We need to make sure that just as the mechanic won't mess up someone's brakes, the parent won't mess up their kids, or the citizen won't vote somebody crazy into office, etc. Learning the value of learning is one element of that.
Having said that, I suspect there is a lot we expect kids to learn in school that they probably won't need for any role they will ever take on in life.
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My mechanic had a degree in engineering in Iran, but when he came to America (fleeing political danger) found he could make more money fixing cars, which he loves doing anyway. He talks wine with my dad, religion with me and my husband, rocket science with his clients from JPL.
He's a very cool guy.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: 'Ignorant' is a word with many definitions.
I am only familiar with the one. And the Concise Oxford only gives one - lacking in knowledge, uninformed, acting in a uncouth manner through lack of knowledge.
What definition are you using? If it is a slang or colloquial usage, I am ignorant of it.
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I wonder if the educational establishment might tweak the results to make it seem like they need more money.
I mean, I know they always need more money. I just wonder to what lengths they might go to get it.
Re: Daycare. My daughter has been taught to spell the colors of the rainbow aloud, but can't read them. It's kind of surreal.
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...Oxford only gives one - lacking in knowledge, uninformed, acting in a uncouth manner through lack of knowledge. What definition are you using?
Ah, but there is the rub. If'n ya tell folks that they're ignorant (on a topic)... ...they almost always assume that you are calling them stupid (in general).
quote:Originally posted by dkw: So far in my son's books we've encountered a lot about farm animals and the sounds they make, but nothing about milk or eggs (or bacon or beef, for that matter).
The Little Golden Book The Jolly Barnyard has all of the farm animals deciding what to give the farmer for his birthday. The hen says she'll give him eggs, the cow says milk, the turkey says he'll grace the Thanksgiving table as well as he's able.
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