FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Parents Need to Control their Children (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Parents Need to Control their Children
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm in National Airport right now and watching a kid following his parents on those shoes with a wheel in the heel. He's careened into people at least three times in 50 feet. His parents saw at least two. At some point they need to decide that he's not capable of using such shoes in an airport and take out the wheels. I think that was at least one careen ago.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is why I have always said, "discipline begins in the womb." You can quote me on that.
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I'm trying to spank my kid's butt, but my wife keeps on yelling at me for a completely unrelated reason!"
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gah! That kind of stuff makes me crazy! It is instilling in the kids the idea that the world revolves around them and that they needn't ever consider that there are other people in it.

Bad parents! Bah!

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh. my. goodness.

Yes, all kids have bad days sometime, but as you said the solution to the endangerment of others seems straightforward. Maybe the parents are worried about the kid having a meltdown if they remove the wheels.

Which raises a whole 'nother beast, of course. *wince

---

Um, is there any chance you have an airport bar nearby? Because you can have a beer on me. Or a lemon-scented water, whatever. [Smile]

Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Exactly, Mucus.

---

What cracks me up is that so many parents consider themselves disciplinarians. Ask almost any random parent what kind of parent they think they are, and they will say that they tend toward the strict side. Or they will immediately compare themselves to a parent they know who is even more lax than they are. I do this, too. Whenever my kids careen out of control, I mentally remind myself of about six other moms who have less control of their kids than I do. It allows me to continue in relative comfort without having to do anything to stop my kids.

Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pooka
Member
Member # 5003

 - posted      Profile for pooka   Email pooka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My kids don't have heelies, but they do sometimes turn into whirling dervishes in the store and stuff like that. I yell at them and then I feel bad. And I threaten not to take them next time, though I'm probably not as consistent in this as I should be. Also, for some reason they like to fan out and walk beside the shopping cart instead of behind me. So I wind up like that Bill Cosby bit about parenting, wild-eyed and alternating between shouting incomplete commands and muttering to myself.
Posts: 11012 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Raising kids is frickin' hard work.

---

Edited to add: Which is one reason why you don't see me doing it. I welcome hard work, but I am actually quite afraid of a job that I can never really put down. I know there are awesome benefits, but I thrive on being able to shut the door and stare into space for three hours at a stretch every few days, guaranteed. Without that, I think I'd be whimpering in the corner and in no shape to be assuming responsibility for myself, much less minors.

Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ask almost any random parent what kind of parent they think they are, and they will say that they tend toward the strict side.
I don't. I'll freely admit to being fairly lenient.
Posts: 37414 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_raven
Member
Member # 3383

 - posted      Profile for Dan_raven   Email Dan_raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is why Tasers should be allowed in public airports.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Both our kids have heelies, but we don't let them wear them to malls and places where they might be careening into other people.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ladyday
Member
Member # 1069

 - posted      Profile for ladyday   Email ladyday         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What does that leave though? The kid wanted some heelies but I couldn't think of where I'd allow her to wear them :\.
Posts: 1676 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Both our kids have heelies, but we don't let them wear them to malls and places where they might be careening into other people.

Sounds pretty reasonable. If they become good at using them might you lift even that restriction?

Dag: Tell a security guard you saw the parents put some sort of contraband in the wheel wells of their kids shoes. That'll show em. [Big Grin]

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom, when I was typing that my brain specifically came up with you as a counter-example. [Smile]

Ladyday, you could let them wear them to church. That's where I see kids wearing them most frequently.

Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If they become good at using them might you lift even that restriction?
Sure. Maybe.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jhai
Member
Member # 5633

 - posted      Profile for Jhai   Email Jhai         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My feet are so small, I can easily fit into the larger-sized children shoes. Can't get heels, of course, but my favorite pair of loafers are child Espirt shoes. I'm considering purchasing a pair of heelies for myself. My walk to campus includes a lot gentle hills... Also: lightup sneakers for running after dark.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ladyday
Member
Member # 1069

 - posted      Profile for ladyday   Email ladyday         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ladyday, you could let them wear them to church. That's where I see kids wearing them most frequently.
Did my mom pay you to say that? O_o
Posts: 1676 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Ask almost any random parent what kind of parent they think they are, and they will say that they tend toward the strict side.
I don't. I'll freely admit to being fairly lenient.
So Tom isn't a random parent. That's not terribly surprising. [Smile]
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Depends on what is meant by control...
There are ways to do that, and have it be affective without the use of impliments.
But not disciplining is as bad as whooping a kid over the slightest thing.

Posts: 9938 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"My name is Random.
Mr. Random"

Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While we were waiting in an airport for an international flight, we saw some parents that impressed us immensely. I'd say the children were roughly 2 and 4 years old.

Were the kids running? Yes. A parent was with them at all times, and encouraging them to run and play in a fairly clear "safe" area, and making sure they didn't interfere with any fellow travellers. The parent was making a game out of it, and the parents would switch off occasionally, but make sure the kids stayed in motion.

It got all of their energy out and we didn't hear a peep from either child on the entire flight. We were very impressed.

AJ

Posts: 11264 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*nod* I think that's what is most difficult about parenting, for me. It's a bit of a balancing act, trying to encourage your children to be children, but in a safely marked out "area". Children should be encouraged to hoot and holler, for example, but not scream like they are being kidnapped. (In my opinion.)
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
*nod* I think that's what is most difficult about parenting, for me. It's a bit of a balancing act, trying to encourage your children to be children, but in a safely marked out "area". Children should be encouraged to hoot and holler, for example, but not scream like they are being kidnapped. (In my opinion.)

That totally makes sense. You can't expect a child to sit still for hours upon end, but they shouldn't be running over old ladies either.
Posts: 9938 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm so glad mine are small enough to grab up and contain in arms or buckle into a stroller if they repeatedly misbehave in public. Of course, then they scream, but at least they aren't hurting people.
Posts: 21181 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
erosomniac
Member
Member # 6834

 - posted      Profile for erosomniac           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I once got hit by one of those kids in the stupid wheel sneakers and he fell down wrong, hurt himself and started crying. His parents had the nerve to get mad at me. I haven't been that close to punching someone in a long time.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pooka
Member
Member # 5003

 - posted      Profile for pooka   Email pooka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know if they need to be encouraged to hoot and holler, precisely. I do feel like I'm always telling them there's a time and place.

I have a "silly" child. All of his teachers have come up with this word for it on their own. I guess he's what you'd call a clown. Take my general sense of humor and put it with the disposition of his father, the viking lord, and you've got a hell of a kid.

Posts: 11012 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For clarification: I encourage my children to hoot and holler in our backyard. It's good for the soul. [Smile]

edit: Oops, I misunderstood your post. Anyway, I generally need to encourage my oldest to play hard and make noise. He has fun when he's doing it, but he's pretty shy about starting the fun himself.

Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dkw
Member
Member # 3264

 - posted      Profile for dkw   Email dkw         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
I welcome hard work, but I am actually quite afraid of a job that I can never really put down. I know there are awesome benefits, but I thrive on being able to shut the door and stare into space for three hours at a stretch every few days, guaranteed. Without that, I think I'd be whimpering in the corner and in no shape to be assuming responsibility for myself, much less minors.

If Bob did not regularly take John downstairs for breakfast in the morning in order to give me some "staring into space" time I would be in serious danger of being one of those moms you hear about on the evening news.

Also I have a job that allows for some alone time when I need it. But I hear you, CT. Oh boy, do I hear you.

Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is why my kids have strictly enforced bedtimes and rest times. STRICTLY enforced. (It's deliciously quiet in the house right now.)
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
El JT de Spang
Member
Member # 7742

 - posted      Profile for El JT de Spang   Email El JT de Spang         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The fact that CT doesn't think she could handle raising a child frankly terrifies me when I think about me trying to do it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Belle
Member
Member # 2314

 - posted      Profile for Belle   Email Belle         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On the other hand, after seven years of constant noise and chaos, I can't stand it when it's quiet. Right now, I'm alone in the house. I didn't have school today but the munchkins did. I'm here by myself and I find it freaky.

I am so used to noise and running around that I don't like it when it's too quiet. I can read and study with all four kids clamoring around me. I thrive on activity and social contact.

Maybe I'm weird. I think the ability to thrive in chaotic environments will serve me well when I teach, though. At least I hope! I did observations with a teacher who CANNOT function in chaos and has her kids trained to sit and be quiet and never attempt to talk even when she asks questions. Predictably, kids don't seem to enjoy her class very much. I think English class needs to have (controlled) discussion and interaction, so the silent classes she led seemed very stifling to me.

Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
The fact that CT doesn't think she could handle raising a child frankly terrifies me when I think about me trying to do it.

It probably would make me feel the same way, except I have found that some people just are not cut out to have kids, and I respect them for knowing that. Just like I am not cut out to do, say, my husband's (paid) job, which would drive me batty (he's a tax accountant.)
Posts: 21181 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ElJay
Member
Member # 6358

 - posted      Profile for ElJay           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I really want heelies.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Goody Scrivener
Member
Member # 6742

 - posted      Profile for Goody Scrivener   Email Goody Scrivener         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
I really want heelies.

I want 'em just so I can go careening off the moron kids who can't control themselves and especially off the parents who let them go careening through inappropriate places LOL

And since I never learned to rollerskate, I should really be a menace to society on them!!!

Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jhai
Member
Member # 5633

 - posted      Profile for Jhai   Email Jhai         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As a member of the heelie-wearing group, I promise to never run into people (except maybe annoying, slow undergraduates). However, I will probably gloat at those who wish they could be as immature as me.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Poor Dag. He's probably on his flight right now and unable to enjoy our witty discussion.
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My youngest brother is now a graduate level T.A. at a major university. (Ironically the wild child of the family may be the one that ends up with a PhD, although he's only working on a Master's at the moment) I haven't asked him if he still pogo sticks to class. He was apparently quite notorious for doing so when he was an undergrad... I wonder if he has heelies...
Posts: 11264 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I saw clip-on light-up wheels that attached to the heel of any sneaker at the mall the other day.
Posts: 21181 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kwea
Member
Member # 2199

 - posted      Profile for Kwea   Email Kwea         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Working in retail, I hate those shoes. They have been banned in a lot of public places, like malls, but people don't want to take the risk of having the parent complain so the kids get away with it too often.
Posts: 15080 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ElJay
Member
Member # 6358

 - posted      Profile for ElJay           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I drive through the U of M campus every day on my way to work, and have seen people unicycling to class. [Smile] Pogo sticking to class would be great exercise.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I haven't asked him if he still pogo sticks to class.
Man, I love English. What other language lets you verb nouns like that? Hey look, I did it too! I verbed verb! (Although I think I would have chosen to stick with "pogos to class".)
Posts: 6366 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholar
Member
Member # 9232

 - posted      Profile for scholar   Email scholar         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My husband says that we are going to be the worse disciplinarians ever. Bin is going to run wild and we'll just sit there going, um, honey, um, what you doing? Please don't hurt that nice man. Oh, well, I guess if you were just kidding...
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe the verb is pogoing, not pogo sticking.

I dunno...

Posts: 11264 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grrr, baby brain. I read that as "pooping" twice before I got it.
Posts: 21181 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Belle
Member
Member # 2314

 - posted      Profile for Belle   Email Belle         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like "pogo sticking". English is an incredibly fun language for stuff like that. I love it when we take brand names and make verbs out of them. Googled anything today?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(((dkw))) Rock on, sister, and amen for good partners.

quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
I thrive on activity and social contact.

Maybe I'm weird.

I think it's in good part an introvert/extrovert thing, different wiring. Like Tom D, you're pretty consistently an E on the Meyers-Briggs, aren't you, Belle?

---

JT, thanks for the implied compliment! [Smile] But seriously, as ketchupqueen said, it is very much an individual issue. I am good at some things, and some things I'm very good at. However, being around other people (even people I love) for extended periods of time, relentlessly, without the chance of totally zoning out from the world is not something I'm good at.

I've been this way all my life, despite trying to change it, and I recall my mother being exactly the same way. I have many memories of her having to go lie down away from the rest of us, or yelling in despair that "you won't even let me read three lines of the paper! three lines! auuuughh!" and yet my brother and I were almost freakishly quiet kids. The few times we had a babysitter (funerals, etc.), the babysitter never saw us because we stayed in our rooms with our noses in books. But when my mother needed time out, she really needed it, and my partially paralyzed post-stroke father couldn't fully take over.

Knowing I take after her -- as much as I love her, and as grateful as I am for my upbringing -- and knowing how I am wired, and knowing the health and other issues my husband and I both face (including his age of 54, his diabetes, and so on), well, I can't in good conscience commit to 18 years. It isn't the right decision for us, although two similar people in a similar situation might be different enough that the opposite is true.

But I'm good for a lot of other things, including babysitting for days at a stretch. Long ago I did 2-3 weeks at a time and came out very little the worse for wear. I just need to know I can eventually put the responsibility aside and kind of stare off into space to reset my head. My spouse is much the same way, and there is no guarantee our need-it-now times won't overlap. Frequently, they do.

However, a lot of people aren't wired that way, or don't bring the same history to it, and have different social supports and resources. It's still hard, and that should still be acknowledged by those of us relying on others to raise the next generation [Smile] , but you may find you are very well suited to it indeed.

Courage, my friend! You will figure out whether or not it is for you, regardless of my shortcomings in this area.

---

Edited to add: And for me this need isn't an "I prefer it this way, I get irritated if I don't get it" kind of thing. Not even an "I get very irritated if I don't get it" kind of thing. It's an "eventually I start ripping holes in the back of my hands with my teeth, check the stove 30 times, and refuse to close my eyes" kind of thing.

I know how my body and mind work, and I know what I am and am not good at. This is one of the *awesome* things about life experience and hard-earned perspective: if you pay attention, you can figure out pretty reliably what a lot of the likely consequences of your decisions would be in advance. Love-ly!

[ November 20, 2007, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CT, that was some beautiful writing.

AJ

Posts: 11264 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks, sugar. [Kiss]
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*makes note that CT is available for extended periods of babysitting* [Evil]
Posts: 21181 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I seem to really want children despite the fact that they might drive me crazy.
Posts: 9938 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2