Lately I involved myself (more than usually) in a few threads and I was told that I come across as rude, from “a little” to “incredibly” range.
I’m realy sorry to hear that, and I ask for your honest opinion abut what you know of me. You can base your answer on the whole history you know of me (all posts) or a particular post or even a word I wrote.
I am ready to see only the “negative” responses, and I wont take anyone’s silence as an “tacit approval”, but rather as “not worth the time to answer”.
Please give me your opinion, with reasons if possible, because it is an important issue for me. If I come across generally, or even lately, as an incurable rude poster, I will have to re-evaluate my presence here and if I really bother many of you, I will try to learn my lesson and probably stay out of your Hatrack life.
posted
Hmm, when I registered I would have sworn the standard operating procedure was to inoculate all new members with a grain of salt...
You come across a bit rough at times perhaps, and I've probably missed (or avoided) some of the threads in question, but I certainly don't consider you to be one of the more incredibly rude people I read around here.
EDIT: That came across a lot snarkier than I intended. No, I don't find you to be unusually rude.
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
As I said in one of the threads, I think that tone and intent are often misunderstood over the internet. Studies have corroborated this belief to the tune of over 50%. As someone who is often frustrated on these boards when I am misunderstood, misrepresented, or called out on a wording choice that seemed good at the time but might not have been the best, I can sympathize. I have honestly spend half an hour or more going through my wording to still have someone take it badly.
Bearing in mind that you will never be perfect, here are a few suggestions:
quote:Is that the ABSOLUTE TRUTH? How do you know?
CAPS are risky internet behavior. They often symbolize yelling. I find that putting the words in *asterisks* can provide emphasis without coming across as yelling.
Other than that, I wouldn't call this rude. It's challenging and forceful, perhaps, which might feel a little uncomfortable.
But personally, I did not think this was rude. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took your CAPS to mean emphasis and your forceful statements to be curiosity and an attempt to further the discussion.
quote:Same thing. You give the same declarative sentence, but you are lazy to sustain it with evidence, which is kind of the point of this thread.
Even if someone uses a derogatory word to describe themselves or their actions, it's best to be diplomatic enough not to use that word in response. It's like if a woman complains, "I gained 5 lbs I'm so fat!" The correct response is not, "Yeah, you could lose some weight" *even* if it's true.
Finally,
quote:I too think it would be nice if you could do that better. If my questions bother you, or give you the impression that I try to confuse you or something like that, say so and I’ll stop.
This is a similar situation to the "lazy" one. But in this case, your follow-up remarks and use of a smiley reduced the impact and made it clear to me that even if your words weren't perfect, your intent was good.
**************
I didn't really pay attention to you before today, so I don't have anything else to offer. I thought some of the reactions to your posts were a bit over the top, but like I said, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think you are or have been trying to engage the community at a different level than many of the posters here, and that is why you sometimes come across as rude. You seem to have a strong desire to control how much about yourself you “let out” – creating a persona which, although (I assume) true, is only part of yourself. The gender thing is an example. Now there are people here who I don’t know what gender they are, and if you’d just left it at that and not commented it wouldn’t be a problem. But you’ve made a point of “I’m not telling” at least twice that I can recall, and that comes off snobby in a group where many of us know each other’s names, ages, birthdays & anniversaries, occupation, bra size, and what our kids will and won’t eat for dinner. Many people here choose to engage the community as people, and you seem to want to be a disembodied intellect. Which is fine, there are other people here like that too. But you can’t expect the people who are here to chat with friends to enjoy your company if you don’t seem to want the same (or similar) things out of the interaction.
Also I think you have some language issues (an I correct that English is not your first language?) that come across a little “off” at times.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I thought your "rudeness" was completely warranted in the "why believe" thread, and I've just finished defending you a little bit, even though that whole fiasco has passed. I don't thikn you're that rude.
Posts: 655 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I don't think it's rudeness as much as it's a total lack of understanding about how interaction is done here. Like what dkw said.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Please give me your opinion, with reasons if possible, because it is an important issue for me. If I come across generally, or even lately, as an incurable rude poster, I will have to re-evaluate my presence here and if I really bother many of you, I will try to learn my lesson and probably stay out of your Hatrack life.
Incurable? Where did you ever get the idea that this was even a possibility?
If your purpose is to see how much rudeness we all identify in you, and upon crossing some threshold simply leave, I am not interested in this conversation.
The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you.
I don't see you as rude thus far, I see you as pretty straight forward, possibly alittle lacking in tact on occassion but nothing that leaves the green safety zone of my scanners. I am sure there are things about my posting style that rub people the wrong way as well.
I don't really have much else to say about you, I think you should continue to visit and post here.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Who are you, again?
Hello, I’m suminonA and I have rudeness issues.
- - -
Architraz Warden, thank you, I don’t think you were snarky. I asked for honest opinion and if that comes across in a way that bothers me, it should be my problem and I’d have to deal with it.
Christine, thank you for your elaborated reply and your suggestions. I’m a bit reassured that I didn’t offend you in the other thread. It wasn’t my intention at all.
dkw, once more, your intervention is very valuable for me, and I appreciate it. I think that what you said really is the “core” of Hatrack and if my way of participating on this board (the gender issue for example) is not the best for this community, then it’s precisely the case for me to re-evaluate my “actions” (read words) here.
I have a few main options: a) continue as it is, and hope for the best b) change my way of interacting, like giving publicly much more details, and “conform” to the general mores. c) leave this board and never bother anyone of you again. (If I would come back with another alias you would notice it, because the way I write is very close to the way I am, and that won’t change rapidly or drastically in the future.)
I think what you said is a very constructive “criticism”, and I thank you for it, a second time.
BTW, English isn’t my first language and I don’t think it should be an excuse for misusing the words or writing badly. I try to learn and all of you who give me the benefit of the doubt can help me very much in my goal of bettering myself. (Which is kind of the point of my being here).
Starsnuffer, thank you for defending me in the other thread, and I hope that act doesn’t turn against you in any way.
baduffer, calling someone rude is not shocking, it is an opportunity to better the communication level between the participants to a dialogue.
El JT de Spang I agree, and you witnessed more errors of mine.
- - -
For the time being, I’m going to ponder over my recent experience, take a Time Out and probably lurk for a while. I can learn without interacting, but I think it is a limited experience that way.
posted
I think you have good intentions, but you just don't always see how your words can come across as rude. Additionally, I don't think you really need to have an entire thread devoted to this topic in order for you to evaluate how your posting style may be perceived, the mere mention of your being rude should be enough for you to pause for a moment to reflect on why your post may have been perceived that way. You just learn as you go. With that said, you really don't have anything to worry about. No one is actually going to punch you in the neck Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think you could work on your tact, and maybe sit back and observe how we like to treat others and be treated here before you jump into a conversation where you disagree with others-- that includes how we respond to someone saying they were hurt by something we said, or how we would like someone to respond to us if we said we were hurt by him.
I have hurt peoples' feelings more than once here. I always try to apologize, even if I believe I was correct in what I said, because if I hurt someone's feelings saying it I probably was not correct in the way I said it. (There are exceptions, but I still apologize for hurting their feelings, because that is never my intention, although sometimes I know what I am going to have to say will not be well received, I try to put it the nicest way possible.) And I try even harder to think three times before I post something and look at it from the other side, to make sure that what I am saying is not intentionally hurtful.
That's one of the things I like about Hatrack; while you will occasionally get the thread that is so offensive it is removed, or the poster who thinks that the correct response to people disagreeing with him or being hurt or upset by what he says is to delete his thread, or the argument that just will not die, for the most part, people let their original words stand (or mark their edit so others know they removed them because they realized they could be offensive) but also let stand their apologies, so everyone can see that we care about each other and each other's feelings.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: If your purpose is to see how much rudeness we all identify in you, and upon crossing some threshold simply leave, I am not interested in this conversation.
The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you. […] I don't really have much else to say about you, I think you should continue to visit and post here.
I promise you I don’t have the intention to cover the boards with any kind of threads. I don’t look for sympathy, I look for constructive criticism.
I thank you for your words, and I hope I’ll be able to continue to visit and post here in a way most (if not all) of you would enjoy. I would have to be able to enjoy it too.
- - -
camus, I take full responsibility for all my errors, the starting of this thread included.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Studies have corroborated this belief to the tune of over 50%.
I'm curious where you read this. It would be nice to know more about how they studied this.
I've read these results in a few places and I'm having trouble find the right search to show me the original study. I know that what they basically did was have volunteer participants guess the tone in email messages and then they evaluated how many of their answers matched the writer's intended tone. I hope I can find this again. I'll be sure to reference it when I do.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I've read these results in a few places and I'm having trouble find the right search to show me the original study. I know that what they basically did was have volunteer participants guess the tone in email messages and then they evaluated how many of their answers matched the writer's intended tone. I hope I can find this again. I'll be sure to reference it when I do.
Of course, part of that is a learning curve.
I expect sarcasm in an e-mail from my mother (we are a very sarcastic family-- I was a bit appalled and also a bit proud when my then-two-year-old daughter correctly used a sarcastic tone to ironically say, "Wonderful.") I do not expect it so much from a friend I know to be absolutely devoid of sarcasm or ill-feeling toward almost any human being. (I also give that friend more of the benefit of the doubt if something she says hurts me-- because I know that would NEVER be her intention, not even a little bit.)
We on Hatrack get to know each other, over time, and understand each others' tones better-- if we all stick around long enough. So I would say that reading strangers' e-mails for tone might not be the best way to evaluate that in an applicable way...
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I don't think you're particularly rude. I think you're incredibly, almost exclusively self-interested.
That hits the nail on the head for me. Whether you see it in yourself or not, I do think it is quite clear to (at least some of) us that the threads you start or participate in are heavily weighted to an abundant emphasis on your own self-image, how other people see you, what other people think of your ideas in particular, where others see you in some general ranking, and so on and so forth. This thread, obviously, included.
It's not a terrible characteristic, and it doesn't make you particularly evil, or even bad. It's just a characteristic I associate with the uncertainty of youth. (I don't know how young you are, but this is -- for me -- characteristic of the time period from about 12 to 20 years old, up to around 25 for some people.) Supporting and responding to someone else's need for being the center of things is exhausting at times. It is draining on the energy and good nature of the community -- which almost all of us are, mind you, at one time or another. However, with some people it is like a bottomless well, a constant claim on attention without much put back to replace that.
Like BlackBlade, I too think you should continue to visit and post here. I think the community would lose something valuable for you to fall silent. I also think it would be very good (and perhaps self-informative) for you to take from now until the end of February and keep posting at least a few times a week, but refrain utterly from asking anyone about how they think of you or (directly) what they think of your ideas or opinions. Don't start any threads, either -- just keep posting, but let your voice be one of many,and watch how the conversation goes on when you are, indeed, deliberately just chiming in instead of automatically trying to take over.
[The world keeps turning without you. The conversations will still flow on without you. And when you are there, astonishingly, often the conversation is affected by your voice, even when you don't make it a resounding call to talk about you, yourself. It is actually quite powerful to see that subtlety can have more of an effect on those around you than a coarse approach may, in the long run.]
I think it would be informative and likely harder than you'd expect, but I think it would be worth it to do. I hope you stick around, regardless.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:It is actually quite powerful to see that subtlety can have more of an effect on those around you than a coarse approach may, in the long run.
This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
ketchupqueen, TomDavidson, ClaudiaTherese, I hope you don’t mind if I sincerely thank you too. I appreciate the input and I’ll do my best to follow your suggestions.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Amen!
My goodness, yes. On a daily basis, even after years of putative awareness of it.
suminonA, no problem. And in case it wasn't clear, for my sense of it, this isn't a matter of kind, but of degree. We all are stressors on our friends and the communities we are a part of, but ideally we come to a better balance with others about the taking and the giving.
Thank god that the 'Net wasn't much around during certain times in my life. Seriously.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Well, look. As others have mentioned, the whole deal with hatrack -- certainly what makes me want to be a good member of this community (though I sometimes fall short) -- is that idea of dropping the mask that makes it so easy for people to be jerks on the internet, and to really try to imagine, "I'm a person talking to this other person." If I were sitting across a table having a conversation with these individuals, how would I behave, what would I say?
I think we've all been treated rudely on hatrack. And I think we've all treated others rudely. Some of that is just: we were flat out rude. Some of that is the problem of tone on the internet. But the difference between this place and other places is that we tend to care in those instances when we screw up and take things too far. We want to do better. We want to be a community.
Understand that, and you'll be fine.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Amen!
My goodness, yes. On a daily basis, even after years of putative awareness of it.
I don't have much to add, just wanted a chance to quote CT and Tom in the same sentence....and adding a Tammy only improved it.
A- I don't think you have been amazingly rude, and your command of a second language is far better than mine. Despite your comments about that, I do think that is a part of it....it affects how you come across at times. That doesn't mean you are even using the language wrong, just that the tone and phrases are a bit off at times.
Just keep in mind that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they haven't thought out their viewpoint, or that they are not as smart as you are because your opinions differ. If you remember that you will do fine here.
Also, dkw is spot on.....Hatrack is more than just a random website to a lot of us, which is why people here act differently (at least some of the time) than at other places. I have met at least 40 Jatraquero's IRL, and not just at conventions.
posted
Personally, I didn't think you were being rude. I stereotyped you as being dismissive because you had a different opinion from me. At least in that exchange, I think I was clearly at fault.
Though there've been enough new threads to keep track of, I've probably missed something good. Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
TL, Kwea, and the others touching on the “Hatrack community/family” part. I also like the “feeling” of this community, which is not common to other boards, and that’s why I’d regret it if I we would reach to some reciprocal conclusion that my posting here is inherently non enjoyable. (I exaggerate, of course, but not to be flippant, just to make the point clearer).
As I’ve said before, I’m reconsidering my “position” and I’m already asking for your forgiveness because I have the intention to bump this thread when I reach to my conclusions. I think at least a few weeks are in the mill for me.
AvidReader, I’ll look forward to your posts in the future.
Meanwhile, I will participate to the threads that interest me (while not starting any new ones), trying to “lower” my tone and making use of the ounce of tact that I might have.
Any suggestion is still welcomed, and I take this occasion to say that my starting this thread has a lot to do with my self-centreness, obviously, but also was a choice out of courtesy toward the threads that I had “infested”, where this off topic discussion would have been certainly un-enjoyable for the other participants still on topic.
posted
I think you have been very rude to me, though not nearly at the level attained by... let's see... Kwea, KoM, swbarnes, Samprimary, Tom... I'm sorry if I forgot anyone. However, the perceived rudeness has very little impact on my opinion on you or any of the others; in Tom's case I actually kind of enjoy it, for some strange reason. Something about the way he phrases things... If I let something like that affect how I thought about the little gremlins who type words at me, how must I feel about myself?
Actually, after being introduced to a nice little Rat on the other side who likes to go off about how much OSC sucks, and getting a little deja vu-ish at how he got yelled at, I decided to go back and re-read some of the older threads that got really heated. I noticed that it didn't seem nearly as heated as it felt at the time, though I really do think I was being treated unfairly at times.
At any rate, I don't think you should worry too much about it. I think camus' advice was excellent. It's basically what I've been trying to do.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Nah, because it doesn't matter. Just trust me on this one.
If you are having some sort of introspective moment and have decided to try and change how you come across to others, that's great. But don't go overboard; you still gotta be yourself.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Actually, nevermind. I went back to where you and I talked most (Dang, we have to update evolution again... which then morphed into My Very Own Thread About Evolution), and you were one of the good guys. I think I just was confusing you with someone else. So let me change my official response to you on this thread to: Rude, you? Dude, I don't know what you're talking about.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: (Dang, we have to update evolution again... which then morphed into My Very Own Thread About Evolution)
Lets wait for some of the atheism/religion threads to clear out before clogging the front page with evolution again Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Nah, because it doesn't matter. Just trust me on this one.
I only ask because it matters to me. I won’t insist, though. I will trust you because you’re talking about your impression and that’s your prerogative. But this won’t help me avoid being rude to you again. As long as you accept me for myself, it shouldn’t matter that much anyway.
posted
You see my next post? Seriously, I was confusing you with someone else. You were cool with me.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Yes, I did, after posting the reply. I sometimes forget to refresh the page before posting. But I won't edit it away, because I stand by my answer.
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Dude, [...]
I hope you use the "dude" thing just as a default label.
BTW, please be careful when you make statements based only on your faulty memory, and then ask people to trust you at face value. I consider that to be a tad rude.
quote:As I’ve said before, I’m reconsidering my “position” and I’m already asking for your forgiveness because I have the intention to bump this thread when I reach to my conclusions.
I hope, when you reach your conclusions, you will -- as part of reaching those conclusions -- conclude that bumping the thread is unnecessary, since part of that conclusion should involve concluding that we don't really care all that much. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I hope, when you reach your conclusions, you will -- as part of reaching those conclusions -- conclude that bumping the thread is unnecessary, since part of that conclusion should involve concluding that we don't really care all that much.
I know bumping is generally “bad practice” around here, hence the warning.
Also, I don’t think I have seen you wink in a long time.
As for the “necessity”, I don’t know. You already know that I’m quite self-centered (I don’t deny it given the evidence) and that would be enough to make it worth the “risk” for me. And if you talk in the name of some subgroup of Hatrack (you sad “we”), I can’t do that and my conclusions can’t reach that far (without your generalised help).
My intention is to ponder over the decision to give or not all the details that make me a “truncated” member (see gender, age, etc), and if that decision is to make them public, to make it here. If not, to explain why (still) not, without starting another “self-centered” thread. Also, if I decide to go away I’ll take the time to say goodbye here.
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: I know bumping is generally “bad practice” around here, hence the warning.
A forum is for discussing things. To discuss in a forum you must "bump".
I think the problem comes in when the horse is obviously dead, yet someone is determined to keep beating.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Tammy: I think the problem comes in when the horse is obviously dead, yet someone is determined to keep beating.
Yes, absolutely. I personally have "revived" a thread after more than a year, with little more than "Bump?", which I still feel ashamed for today.
In the case of this thread, I'm quite positive that it won't stay on the first page until I make my decision, but bumping it has a clearly defined intention and purpose.
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