posted
it's a tradition in Poland that you address your spouse's parents as mum and dad. I always found it a bit disconcerting.
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quote:You seem to think that this is somehow insulting to her -- it's not. Calling the relationship something else doesn't marginalize Tatiana's feelings, and it doesn't minimize all her help and hard work.
It's not elitism by parents, trying to keep everyone else out of their club, either.
Since Tatiana feels she is Sasha's mother, insisting that mother is an inappropriate word is by definition marginalizing her feelings.
What I think is insulting is the persistent claim that you have a better idea of what it means to be a mother than she does.
If you and others had simply stated that her relationship with Sasha could never replace his relationship with the woman (or women) who gave birth to him or cared for him as a young child, then I would have no objection.
My relationship with my mother-in-law didn't replace the relationship I had with my mother. It was the same as the relationship I have with my mother. None the less, it was a genuine mother/daughter relationship and I feel comfortable saying she was a mother of mine.
I don't see why Tatiana and Sasha can't have such a relationship and why people don't see that they are being condescending and rude when they claim she couldn't be a real mother to Sasha.
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quote:I would rephrase your question to say, "How does Tatiana's definition of motherhood diminish Sasha's real mother's motherhood?"
True enough. But it's telling that we question Anne Kate's view on the subject in favor of the assumed point of view of someone of whom we have no knowledge. She's been sniped* out of the community, such as it is. But it's not the first time, and is unlikely to be the last.
*snipe like the waterfowl
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posted
I agree with the Rabbit. Also, I'm not sure this thread serves much useful purpose. Or maybe I'm just sleep-deprived and grumpy.
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posted
I don't (and am unlikely to) have biological children either and I think that the usage of the term "mother" is problematic in this situation.
If I ever have a mother in law, I may refer to her as "mom", but I would not introduce her as my mother (for example) and that is a relationship that has some legal legitimacy.
I think that it is wonderful of Tatiana to be so compassionate and fervent in her desire to care for people. I worry if she is trying to supplant actual parents. If there is some kind of neglect or abuse, I think she should report that. Otherwise, she should defer to his parents.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What I think is insulting is the persistent claim that you have a better idea of what it means to be a mother than she does.
It may be insulting, but it also appears to be true.
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posted
I would be ten times as insulting and rude in this situation if I thought that would increase the chances of Tatiana taking a long look at her relationship with someone who, up until a week ago, she had never laid eyes on.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: My relationship with my mother-in-law didn't replace the relationship I had with my mother. It was the same as the relationship I have with my mother. None the less, it was a genuine mother/daughter relationship and I feel comfortable saying she was a mother of mine.
Did your mother-in-law ever try to make your mother relinquish her legal parental status?
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posted
Well, here we get into stuff I don't know. If it was to gain access to medical treatment my mother could not provide me, no problem. If it was for medical treatment my mother simply didn't think I need, there would be cause for a kerfluffle.
I don't know which we're dealing with.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I guess what bothers me is that so many people are dismissing off hand the idea that Tatiana might have a genuine motherly relationship with Sasha.
I haven't seen anybody do that. What I've seen is people rejecting the assertion that having a motherly relationship means you are their mother.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: So based on your definition, I did not have a true mother/daughter relationship with my Mother-in-Law?
You could argue that your use of the word "Mother" is a short-form of "Mother-in-Law," which is a legitimate and legal relationship that she shares with you. So I think you could make a good case for that one.
You misunderstand me. I didn't start thinking of her as a mother when she first became my Mother-in-Law. Our legal relationship is more or less irrelevant to the issue. For the first 10 years or more of my marriage, I called her by her first name. But with time our relationship grew and I started to think of her as a mother. With time, it became more natural to call her Mom.
As a result of that relationship, I know that it is possible for people to develop a genuine parent child relationship by ways other than the two obvious ones you have listed. Since I grew to have such a relationship with my Mother-in-Law, I am certain that other people can develop such relationships even when they have no biological or legal relationship.
I have no problem with the claim that Tatiana's relationship with Sasha can't replace his relationship to the mother and father who have cared for him since his birth. I have no problem with the claim that Sasha's relationship to Tatiana will never be the same as his relationship to his other mother.
My problem is with the claim that because Tatiana didn't give birth to him or raise him from childhood, she couldn't have a real parent/child relationship with him or that saying she was a real mother to him some how degraded motherhood
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I would be ten times as insulting and rude in this situation if I thought that would increase the chances of Tatiana taking a long look at her relationship with someone who, up until a week ago, she had never laid eyes on.
Right! Because even though you have never laid eyes on either one of them and know no more about their relationship than has been posted on this internet forum, It is your duty to make Tatiana recognize the error.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Right! Because even though you have never laid eyes on either one of them and know no more about their relationship than has been posted on this internet forum, It is your duty to make Tatiana recognize the error.
So you're saying that in order to understand someone deeply enough and relate to them intimately enough to be able to make a judgement on whether a mother/child relationship exists, it is necessary to meet them face-to-face, get to know them outside an Internet context, and assess the situation personally?
Well, luckily Tatiana was able to do that with Sasha as far back as a week or two ago. I'm sure now she's fully equipped to start taking on that kind of responsibility.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: As a result of that relationship, I know that it is possible for people to develop a genuine parent child relationship by ways other than the two obvious ones you have listed.
The problem is, those two criteria aren't the most obvious characteristics of a parent/child relationship. They are the defining characteristics of a parent/child relationship. Unless one of those exists, calling someone a parent is merely an affectation.
I have no problem with affectations, but when semantic preferences are used as justification to usurp actual parental responsibilities, it's the duty of anyone that cares to try to point out the danger before it gets out of hand.
This is, as far as I know, the first time Tatiana has tried to wrest legal custody from one of her "children's" legal parents. But it's not the first time she's stepped out of line to usurp parental authority.
One other time that she deleted a thread, I happened to save a copy of the first page to my hard drive before it happened. If you'd like to see what it was about,
It's not as extreme as trying to adopt a kid yet, but a lot of caring Jatraqueros tried with sincere good intentions to warn her about what, by general concensus, could easily become a big problem. She thanked us by deleting the thread.
As you can see, this is not a semantic debate. I am not concerned with the words people use, but I am concerned when they let themselves literally believe the lies, however well-meaning, that those words represent.
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posted
Baron Samedi, It is my understanding that Sasha and Tatiana have interacted with each other for years by means other than this forum. I have no idea what the extent of the that relationship is, nor to the best of my knowledge do you.
If you have also interacted with Anne Kate for years outside of posting in this forum and feel you have earned not only the right to advise her in her personal affairs but also have a duty to correct her in her ways, then it would be most appropriate for you to do that using some of the other means you have used to develop this close relationship with her.
In this forum, we agree to treat each other with respect. If you feel a duty to treat her disrespectfully, then you should do it some place besides here.
***Please note that this is in response to Baron's post saying that he would feel justified being 10 times as rude as he has been if it would cause Tatiana to reconsider her relationship with Sasha. It is not intended as a general statement about peoples behavior toward Tatiana in this or other threads.
[ January 22, 2008, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ***Please note that this is in response to Baron's post saying that he would feel justified being 10 times as rude as he has been ...
I think that was JT.
---
Edited to add: I'm presuming that you are referring to the post you quoted earlier:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I would be ten times as insulting and rude in this situation if I thought that would increase the chances of Tatiana taking a long look at her relationship with someone who, up until a week ago, she had never laid eyes on.
Right! Because even though you have never laid eyes on either one of them and know no more about their relationship than has been posted on this internet forum, It is your duty to make Tatiana recognize the error.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I would be ten times as insulting and rude in this situation if I thought that would increase the chances of Tatiana taking a long look at her relationship with someone who, up until a week ago, she had never laid eyes on.
Right! Because even though you have never laid eyes on either one of them and know no more about their relationship than has been posted on this internet forum, It is your duty to make Tatiana recognize the error.
I know I'm not claiming to be anyone's parent, so whether or not I know them in real life is irrelevant. I'm also haven't accused her of making any 'error', so I have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean. I am offering my opinion that (what we know of) the relationship does not sound like how emotionally centered people act, and, in this case (given the history) that bothers me enough to go on record mentioning it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Here's the thing: Tatiana has posted over a long period and in some detail about her relationship with Sasha.
I cannot remember reading-and though it's been awhile since I was posting regularly, I used to be very active-stories about how their relationship went beyond purely textual or even vocal on the phone.
How many holidays have they spent together? Have they ever cried together? Cooked a meal for one another? Gone to see a movie together? Shared any sort of physical contact, been there-not just a ready ear, but there-for one another when life becomes awful?
If those things have happened, I don't remember hearing about them. And Tatiana was not shy about discussing Sasha, either. I do remember reading plenty about how they had spoken, or heard thus and so from one another online and such.
It takes presence to be someone's parent. You can't be a parent through closed-circuit television, save through dire necessity, like if one or the other was afflicted with a disease or something like that. And even then, if one of the parents is inflicted with the disease, there will be a void. Of some degree. That's why it's tragic and sad when parents and children are seperated, because it's bad.
You say that Tatiana's feelings are being marginalized because she 'feels' like Sasha's mother. Well, the feeling is not enough. Not to claim motherhood the way it appears she's claiming it. When she says, "I am his mother in every way except legal," I think the word choice and qualification is deliberate. She should get the same consideration, moral and cultural weight, and importance in Sasha's life as any mother with her children.
Well, she shouldn't. Unless his mother is ill, absent, or just a really bad mother--and somehow I doubt we wouldn't have heard of that if it were so--that position is filled right now. Two people cannot occupy the same exclusive role at the same time. You don't get that level of being 'mother' just by a few years talking online and on the phone, and maybe sending financial assistance from time to time.
You just don't. You don't have to be a biological parent to be that sort of 'mother'. What's important is not the womb the kid popped out of, what's important is who feels, demonstrates, and sacrifices as a mother would.
You are not, Rabbit, Mother to the African children you speak of the way Tatiana clearly claims motherhood of Sasha, even though that's the word used. I am not father to my younger friends and family, some of whom I have spoken with for years over the phone and Internet, and even helped through hard times, as their fathers might have.
For someone who's getting so upset over the 'presumption' of biological parents, you're very free with dismissing and marginalizing someone (Icarus) who actually has the relationship (as father, not mother, heh) with children he isn't related to biologically.
And he's been posting on this subject, too.
So maybe you should examine your opposition to the viewpoint being put to you, and think again whether or not it's just because of a biological bias.
Tatiana does great insult to real mothers-biology doesn't enter into it-when she claims that she can earn that title just over a few years on the Internet and telephone.
She can't. She hasn't. I have a difficult time imagining how furious I would be if I were Sasha's father, and some Internet friend came along and said, "I'm your son's mother, every way but legally!" I think it would be difficult for me not to get violent, and I'm not a violent man.
We don't live in cyberspace. You can't be a parent just on good intent and communication. It takes more than that. You can be a parent figure, you can be motivated by the same virtuous impulses that guide every good parent to do their best and make sacrifices, but you aren't actually a parent.
If what you claim were true, I would be a cop, since in the past when I've been at bars, if I saw someone leaving drunk and getting into their car to drive, I would call the police.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ***Please note that this is in response to Baron's post saying that he would feel justified being 10 times as rude as he has been if it would cause Tatiana to reconsider her relationship with Sasha. It is not intended as a general statement about peoples behavior toward Tatiana in this or other threads.
My post?? You might want to double-check your facts.
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posted
Sorry, I got confused by the sequence of posts. I was posting in response to Baron's post that was in response to my post that was in response to ET's post.
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posted
Look, All I'm really trying to say is that based on what I know about Tatiana, she deserves more respect from this forum than she is getting.
Based on my communication with her over the years, I'm willing to grant her the benefit of the doubt. I'm willing to assume that since she has been talking here for a couple of months about the possibility of getting Sasha medical insurance by legally adopting him that she had also discussed this with Sasha and his parents before she showed up with legal documents to sign. I'm willing to assume that she isn't actually trying to wrest control of him from his parents or to replace them in any way. I am willing to assume that Sasha's mother (who Sasha lives with) signed the papers because she knows Anne Kate well enough to trust her and appreciate what she is trying to do for Sasha and not that she is some sort of monster who is willing to sign her son over to a complete stranger. I'm willing to assume that she had discussed this with Sasha father and he had initially agreed but then backed out. I'm willing to assume all that as a member of this board because I think Anne Kate has earned that much respect from us.
I'm also willing to respect that if she claims she is a mother to Sasha, that she has done enough that she and Sasha agree warrants that claim. I do that out of respect for Anne Kate.
I think Anne Kate is too quick to trust people and so has a blind spot for why other people might distrust her and her intentions. But that doesn't warrant some of the things people have said here.
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quote:For someone who's getting so upset over the 'presumption' of biological parents, you're very free with dismissing and marginalizing someone (Icarus) who actually has the relationship (as father, not mother, heh) with children he isn't related to biologically.
And he's been posting on this subject, too.
I had no intention of dismissing or marginalizing the relationship of adoptive parents with their children. I had no idea Icarus had adopted children.
I'm no sure how what I've said was dismissive or marginalized the feelings of any kind of parent. If what I said came across that way, I'm very sorry.
I still don't know how recognizing that parent child relationships can develop in many different ways is disrespectful to those who have more traditional parent child relationships.
(Also, I never used parent with a * to describe anyone.)
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quote:I still don't know how recognizing that parent child relationships can develop in many different ways is disrespectful to those who have more traditional parent child relationships.
Here is the difficulty: Tatiana is not saying the relationship is developing. She says it's developed, in every way but legal. Which, by the way, she is also attempting to do.
As for me, I'm not even complaining it's disrespectful to 'more traditional' child-parent relationships. I'm saying it's disrespectful to the child-parent relationship, in whatever form it takes.
It's a subjective thing, but that doesn't mean it's wide open. You aren't a parent strictly online, it takes sacrifice and committment. And not one grand, sweeping save-the-day gesture, either. It takes more than that. It takes the time and presence that parents have sacrificed and put in to be a parent.
Tatiana is suggesting that the word 'parent' is smaller than it really is, to be so quickly filled.
quote:I'm willing to assume all that as a member of this board because I think Anne Kate has earned that much respect from us.
Yes, well, 'benefit of the doubt' doesn't mean 'proof against all doubt'. That she was totally unwilling to tolerate any questioning on a very important subject she hasn't made an effort to be clear on...well, that doesn't earn extra benefit of the doubt. It detracts from it.
---------
I will also be surprised if this works, the insurance plan, I mean. I have a difficult time imagining that insurance companies would permit such a blind spot for adults, because Sasha is an adult now. In my experience insurance companies balk at providing insurance to high-risk people who are new to them. Hell, sometimes they balk at providing insurance to long-time customers.
And that's another thing we haven't heard about, nor likely ever will. Judging by past examples, Tatiana will probably hold deep, lingering grudges against anyone who has been critical of her on this topic, which will flare up whenever it comes up in the future.
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posted
People have fallen in love on this forum and everyone thought it was so romantic. I don't see that physical presence is necessary to an authentic relationship.
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quote:It is perfectly acceptable to be like someone's mother. It is perfectly acceptable to love someone and help someone, and to be loved and appreciated in return. But if we're speaking of presumption, I find it incredibly presumptuous to express irritation, as Anne Kate has, over a father's reluctance to admit a stranger into a legal relationship with his real son in a manner that actually requires him to legally renounce his own relationship with the son he's raised to maturity.
I was referring only to feelings and other people's ability to make judgments on their legitimacy. That is a topic I have fairly developed ideas about in a variety of contexts.
I didn't read the previous thread, so I had no idea exactly what it was people were objecting to, and most people here were speaking in generalities about what it means to be a mother, and whether you can be one to someone you didn't give birth to, or care for since shortly after that.
I did not read the original thread, mostly because I'm not here much, but also because it looked personal. I like you all just fine, but I don't care to get all up in anyone's business, even if you seem to have posted wanting people to do just that.
I'm not going to comment on parental rights severing and insurance and whatnot, mostly because of the not caring, mentioned above.
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posted
My memory of the thread (which could be wrong) was that the father didn't want to sign over his parental rights and Tatiana couldn't understand that, since she was the boy's mother. She seemed to be implying that she knew better then the actual parents. It seemed like she was trying to take the place of the mother, not in addition to it.
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quote:People have fallen in love on this forum and everyone thought it was so romantic. I don't see that physical presence is necessary to an authentic relationship.
Sure, it started on this website. Did they claim spousal place in each other's lives on the basis of online relationships, though?
I also don't think physical presence is necessary to authentic relationships. I think it's necessary to some kinds of relationships. Again, we don't live in cyberspace. That is not where our lives take place. And love is about more than just exchanging ideas and conversation, and even empathy, compassion, and mutual respect, as is done online.
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posted
I submit that just because it's possible to form serious emotional attachment to someone else simply through text-based contact doesn't mean it's possible to parent that way. At least not for any definition of 'parent' that I'm aware of. Parenting requires proximity in a way that friendship does not.
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posted
I don't think that's at all analogous, pooka. Actually, the most analogous thing I can think of, if you're going to talk about online relationships, would be this story.
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posted
The proposal was on the first date, but the first date was not the first time we'd met in person. There's no way he'd have proposed or I'd have accepted if that hadn't been the case.
In fact, he'd had dinner with my parents and siblings before the first date.
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posted
Possibly true of Sasha. As I've said all along, his perception of this situation is both critical and absent.
p.s. I was more thinking of quidscribis. But I do seem to recall your courtship was compressed to a degree most would not consider normal. so was mine, though we didn't meet on the internet.
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posted
Our courtship was brief, but we had a 13 month engagement.
Quid & Fahim didn't get engaged on the first date, they were engaged before they met. I think they waited a few days after she flew out to Sri Lanka to actually get married, though.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: People have fallen in love on this forum and everyone thought it was so romantic. I don't see that physical presence is necessary to an authentic relationship.
Being a parent and being a spouse are, again, not on the same continuum. A parent is not like a Ph.D. level friend, nor is it a Ph.D. level mentor. You don't meet someone, get to know them, get to be their friend, become inseparable, and then become a parent.
You do court a person you're attracted to in order to become their spouse. You don't court a child that you like in order to become their parent.
You're talking about "motherhood" as being defined by a loving, caring relationship. That kind of attachment to your child can turn you from a bad parent into a good parent, or from a bad friend into a good friend. But it can't turn you from a good friend into a parent.
Take this as an example. My parents beat me when I was a child. When I was too loud, my mother used to tie me up with rope and put me in a closet in the basement for hours so she wouldn't have to deal with me. One day when I took too long getting ready for school she waited until I came out of the shower, took my towel, and threw me outside naked right next to the bus stop. If I swore, my mom would make me swallow a teaspoon of tobasco sauce, and I couldn't talk sometimes for days afterward. When I turned 18 they threw everything I owned into a garbage can and kicked me out of the house. I haven't spoken with them in nearly a decade, and I couldn't be happier.
I'm now married, and my wife and I share a wonderfully kind, loving, happy and supportive relationship. Everything I ever wished my mother would provide me (and more, obviously) I can get from my wife. We've been together for nearly 10 years, and I've never for a moment regretted it.
So if I were to bring up "my mother" in conversation, would you assume that I was talking about the woman that raised me, or the woman I'm married to?
And just to kill the suspense, if it ever turns out that I'm referring to my wife as my mother, I hereby give you permission to shoot me in the kneecaps with a shotgun.
The fact that Tatania's relationship has mainly played itself out online may get in the way of her becoming as close to this child as his real, biological parents are. But that itself isn't the dealbreaker. He's a grown man and he's just now met her. She can become a lot of things in his life. There's a chance that she will someday become far more meaningful to him than his parents ever were. But she will never literally be his mother.
posted
It's worth noting, too, that a spousal relationship is fundamentally different from a parental relationship.
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quote:Look, All I'm really trying to say is that based on what I know about Tatiana, she deserves more respect from this forum than she is getting.
To be completely fair, however - it's important to note that the things she was planning were not entirely above-board anyway. There was discussion the last time I saw the thread that she would enroll him in college, with no intention of him actually attending classes, just so she could get him insured. I'm no expert, but that seems like some type of fraud, or at the very least it's pretty low to manipulate the system in such a way.
There were suggestions made about how he could pursue treatment through appropriate channels, but she had blinders on about everything except one - adopting him and manipulating the collegiate and insurance system. Which doesn't seem right, no matter what you think about her self-appointed title of motherhood.
Her intentions may have been, in her mind, good ones but that doesn't mean that what she planned was right or appropriate.
I hope this doesn't sound as if I don't want the best for this boy, I do - I hope there is some treatment program he can take advantage of to get the help he needs. I just don't think Tatiana's plan was the best way to go about it.
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posted
Just as an interjection that is not necessarily related to the specific topic at hand, but the more general concept of defining "motherhood."
There's something about Biological Parenthood that is nearly unique to it, though it does come into play with a formal adoption or other guardianship relationship as well-- the 24-7-365 complete and total responsibility for what your child is and/or becomes. Fair or not, true or not, whether it is embraced or not by the parent in question, the world pretty much judges you based on what you do to and for your children and also to a great extent by how they "turn out".
Again, many parents completely fail to recognize this responsibility and many more don't particularly live up to it well, but the responsibility is there for biological parents for sure, and, I think it's pretty safe to say, for legal guardians and adoptive parents as well (and those people almost by definition are stepping in precisely because the biological parents are unable or unwilling to meet the responsibility to their child). It is most definitely not there for relationships where there is no formal guardianship... and I, for one, find that an enormously important distinction of "real parent" versus "parent-like relationship" that several people have hinted at but no one has explicitly drawn yet.
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quote:BB: This is very off-topic. I may take this into a different thread. But a thought occurs, given your travels, have you visited any of Harbin, Dalian, Suzhou, or Guilin?
I'm afraid out of that list I can only say I've been to Gui Lin. Beautiful country, gorgeous in fact.
I assume you've been to all those places?
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posted
Belle, agreed. And I suspect that it was it part the fact that I and others pointed out that this was fraud that upset her to the point of deleting the thread.
I said it there, and I'll say it again. It won't work, and it's fraud.
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posted
Suzhou is ok, but somewhat touristy. There are nearby cities that have the canals and similar appeal but less tourists, which I enjoyed.
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quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: I didn't read the thread, and have no idea what is going on. From an outside perspective, this thread makes no sense at all. Can someone please explain the situation?
The threads about Sasha? Her adopted internet son? Ring a bell?
I avoid most threads of that nature, because I feel that, as someone who is only 18, and not even close to having a family, I do not have an educated enough opinion.
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posted
BB and scholar: I think I will take this discussion into a less contentious thread entitled "Travel thread: China" Thanks
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posted
I'm not a lawyer, nor a psychologist, but I'm frightened. I hear warning bells so loud, it's hard to type sometimes.
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quote: I, for one, find that an enormously important distinction of "real parent" versus "parent-like relationship" that several people have hinted at but no one has explicitly drawn yet.
Interesting, Jim-Me. You see this sort of thing on tv and the movies all the time, but I don't know if it ever plays out in real life. There's always some kid who turns to a mentor figure and over the course of the movie declares, "He's like a father to me. I wouldn't be here if not for him."
Whatever the reality is, there's a strong pop culture tradition of others filling a parental role better than the actual parents. I would imagine many people believe it's possible.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: Quid & Fahim didn't get engaged on the first date, they were engaged before they met. I think they waited a few days after she flew out to Sri Lanka to actually get married, though.
We met in person two months after having met online. We were married less than eight hours after that, and the only reason it took that long was because we were waiting for the witnesses to arrive. We could have married five minutes after we'd met and I would have been fine with that, as would Fahim.
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I'm really uncomfortable with a lot of what's been said about Tatiana in this thread, with the exception of Rabbit, with whom I tend to agree.
If you feel you (generic you) know her well enough to tell her how she's wrong or screwing up or what she should do, surely there are better ways of doing this, like in a private email.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm sure there is also a professional ethics issue involved. Not that I think CT has done anything unethical but there is sort of a blurry line between offering friendly advice and giving medical advice when many of the facts are not available. I can see why CT would be concerned.
I have always been careful about this, and I have always limited my advice to be bound by this. Of course.
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Edited to add:
Just to be clear, I have no qualms about anything I've done in that respect online, ever. Not only do I actually know everything I have done, but I have had advanced academic training in ethics, far and above what is typical for physicians, which is (I believe) far and above what is typical for other professions, except for law.
And I rest so easy at night, nonetheless. *smile
My concern isn't that I've stepped over any professional lines in any way whatsoever. My concern is that I am not sure personally what I hope to get out of that sort of interaction, and I think it is worth thinking about. I think that thinking about such personal expectations for engagement would be good for a lot of people to do, actually.
Once again I'm guilty of overstating my case when I said I was sure. Your behavior on line, in my experience, has always reflected not only your professional training in ethics but also your personal commitment to ethical behavior. I never meant to question either one.
My comment was based on my personal experience. My views of what is ethical both personally and professionally are constantly evolving. It doesn't seem to matter how much I've studied issues or how experienced I've become, new experiences and information will cause me to move the lines I've drawn defining ethical behavior. Some of the comments you made caused me to wonder whether recent experiences might have caused you to reevaluate the ethics of participating in medical discussions on line.
I should not have presumed that to be the case since it certainly was not. I really do need to be more careful about how I word things.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:There were suggestions made about how he could pursue treatment through appropriate channels, but she had blinders on about everything except one - adopting him and manipulating the collegiate and insurance system. Which doesn't seem right, no matter what you think about her self-appointed title of motherhood.
Well, I guess it is a bit like marrying someone to get them a green card. Unless you already loved them. Unless they were already married and you want them to divorce their spouse and come marry you and get the green card.
It wouldn't be my scene, but I wouldn't castigate someone for it. I guess I can see, with more information, that I would say the potentially jettisoned spouse is a sympathetic figure.
But the ethics of the insurance situation is a different matter from the definition of motherhood. I was lazy yesterday and didn't quote any of the LDS church's teachings.
quote:And motherhood, like priesthood, is a divine call to serve and to nurture others. Who that has witnessed the pure love of a mother for her child can deny that this kind of love is of God? Sisters, this same kind of Christlike love can and should be extended to others throughout your life. -Whetten, May 1999
quote: To the women within the sound of my voice who dearly want to be mothers and are not, I say through your tears and ours on that subject, God will yet, in days that lie somewhere ahead, bring “hope to [the] desolate heart.” 1 As prophets have repeatedly taught from this pulpit, ultimately “no blessing shall be withheld” from the faithful, even if those blessings do not come immediately. 2 In the meantime we rejoice that the call to nurture is not limited to our own flesh and blood. "Because she is a mother" Holland, May 1997
Neither of these is a pronouncement by the Prophet, of course, but they were remarks delivered in our general conference and I think some tolerance of an unorthodox view is warranted.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think that being angry at someone's birth father who raised him and still wants to be his parent for not abandoning the legal relationship to his own kid is scarily presumptuous.
And a little bonkers. The entire situation sounds very unhealthy.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I avoid most threads of that nature, because I feel that, as someone who is only 18, and not even close to having a family, I do not have an educated enough opinion.
