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Author Topic: Cremation vs. Burial
pooka
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I seem to remember a news story from some scenic overlook about the cleanup problem that existed from the number of people scattering their ashes there, and controversy over whether the ashes were thereafter thrown away by the maintenance workers. I think it may have been in Hawaii.

I thought about going to the cemetery yesterday, but all my kids voted against. I thought about if my firstborn were still alive, would he want to go to Arlington National Cemetery or the Air and Space museum? Definitely Air and Space.

My mom made a nice stepping stone with stained glass and a dark grout/mortar. I could see something like that being a very nice thing to do with ashes, that isn't too complicated. It could be put in the yard, so it's not in the house, and movable when we leave a place. I don't see my husband going for that, though. And it's okay, because he has a plot at Arlington. Though I've looked around there and it seems they must stack the caskets for a family when they do that, and carve the other name on the back of the stone. I get a plot unless we are divorced or I'm widowed and remarry... or something like that.

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katharina
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You mean Arlington National Cemetary? Are you sure? I think you have to have a purple heart to be buried in Arlington nowadays (anymore).
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Jhai
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Nope - all that's needed is veteran status: link (Or a bunch of other things - but I imagine pooka's husband falls under veteran status.)
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katharina
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There was a story in the Washington Post about a veteran who was permitted to be buried in Arlington even though he had not received the purple heart - apparently it takes more than just being a veteran.

The cemetery almost full. I'm sure there must be more to it.

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katharina
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Looking at the link, it does take more than just having been a veteran. "Retired from the armed forces" does not mean simply having been in the armed forces and are no longer - it means having been career military long enough (25 years?) to take an official retirement from it.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I have heard people who believe in the literal resurrection of our bodies express disapproval for cremation because of that. It's never really made sense to me for many reasons, but I've certainly heard it.

I have head this as well, and the person speaking about it was VERY firm in her belief that those who are cremated cannot "rise from their graves" on Judgment day, and therefore are lost.

I told her that if God could raise the dead, I doubted that a body being ash and bone would stop him....and I doubted he would care either way.

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brojack17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
Teres and I both plan to be cremated as the cheapest legal method, with any money set aside for memorials is to go towards a catered wake for friends and family, with any other donations going to charity. We don't begrudge others the desire to inter the bodies of their loved ones and erect monuments, we just don't feel any sort of urge in that direction ourselves.

We used to get calls from funeral homes once or twice a month. Our usual answers ranged from "We're not interested, thank you," to "we already have a family plot, thanks" (we don't), to "no, thank you, we eat our dead."

Once Teres took the call when she was home alone and busy with dinner. The offer was for free certificates for plots. The manw as very insistent and she finally said sure and gave our address, assuming they would be mailed.

I got home shortly afterwards to find her very annoyed. Turns out their rep was coming to the house and had just called to make sure he had the right street. He pulled into the driveway a few minutes later. Nice enough man but obviously determined to make his pitch. He gave us our free certificates, which were for 15% off burial plots (free certificates for plots, not certificates for free plots, you see).

We settled down to listen to him, but felt absolutely no obligation to take it seriously. We are ordinarily painfully polite people, but he more or less bulled his way into our home and we were feeling put upon.

Once inside he was very pleasant and friendly, and certainly the person I would approach to buy a burial plot if I was ever interested, but he was remarkably resistant to our polite insistence that we didn't want one. The fun began when he asked Teresa, "If something, God forbid, ever happened to your husband, what would be most on your mind?"

She answered, in all seriousness, "My alibi."

He laughed and said, "No, seriously, have you taken steps to prepare for that situation?"

I assured him that she had, and that, sparing no expense, she had invested in the really good garbage disposal, the one that can handle bones.

Like a judo master he used that to segue smoothly into why burial was better than cremation as cremation may not always do the job and the skull may be left intact, which was a tactical error because he had inadvertently succeeded in finally getting Teresa interested. "Really?" she said, leaning forward. "Would they let me have it? Could I put it on the mantelpiece?" That led to a furious husband-wife argument, which he patiently sat through, as I refused to allow her to display my skull unless she first got my teeth capped.

He tried showing us his book filled with beautiful photographs of coffins and final silk-lined destinations and only managed to amaze us at his racket. The very cheapest thing he had, clearly included to shame us into upgrading, was essentially a wax-lined cardboard box that went for $800. We considered it an outrage, since you could find ones like that behind the butcher's dumpster for free.

We realized he was doggedly ignoring us after he described his own burial plot and his headstone ("He Walked This Way") and asked what we thought his kids would think, and I answered "You liked Aerosmith?" and he never noticed.

When further discussions of our afterlife plans and the legacies for our future generations kept including the words "mulch," "reincarnation," and "Hefty Cinch Sack," he finally gave up. We thanked him for a fun and instructive evening.

There was one benefit. We never again got a call from a funeral home.

I laughed so hard. My wife, who doesn't understand why I spend so much time on here, even laughed when I read it to her.
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James Tiberius Kirk
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quote:
I don't think this is true. I think cremation is gaining "popularity" and it is much more prevelant in some parts of the country than others.
I haven't been following this thread, but this bit caught my attention. There was a PBS Frontline episode called The Undertaking based on the book of the same name. It gives a glimpse into the life of a funeral director in Michigan. You can watch the whole thing here. If I remember correctly he does seem to believe that cremations are becoming more common.

It's a very interesting film. I would recommend it.

--j_k

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BannaOj
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So, what is the Jewish perspective on the Holocaust crematoriums? Do the rabbis have some sort of loophole for a genocide or martyr-type situation?
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rivka
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I don't know about a "loophole," but one is not held responsible for actions done against their will. However, it is worth pointing out that the memory of those crematoria contributes to abhorrence over the notion of cremation among many Jews -- even non-religious ones.
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katharina
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quote:
However, it is worth pointing out that the memory of those crematoria contributes to abhorrence over the notion of cremation among many Jews -- even non-religious ones.
That makes a lot of sense.
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anti_maven
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My Father has made provision in his will to have his ashes scattered at the top of a Welsh mountain. He has added a note that if it is windy we can mix beer in to the urn and daub his mortal remains onto the cliff face.

My mother wants to be left speradeagled on the church roof to give the birds a feed.

Personally I couldn't give tuppence.

By the way, I've never heard of cremetion being seen as disrespectful to the dead, but burial used to be seen as a higher 'class' of relative disposal (Kings get buried, paupers chucked on the pyre etc.).

*edit for urn-ness*

[ May 06, 2008, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: anti_maven ]

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by anti_maven:
...we can mix beer in to the earn....

"Urn" is the word you're looking for. I usually don't post corrections like this, but it took me long enough to parse what you were trying to say that I thought it'd be worthwhile.

Except for a flirtation with having my body plasticized (like those in the Bodyworks exhibit) back when I first read about the technology in the mid 80s, I've always wanted to have my organs donated and have the rest of my buried without being embalmed. I don't honestly care a whole lot, though; if people want to incinerate my body or whathaveyou I'm not going to be in a position to object.

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pooka
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Oh, these memory glass things in the google ad... I think my mom would love being turned into a Chihuly-esque paperweight!
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brojack17
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Those are pretty cool. I told my wife because she really likes blown glass. She said a diamond was still cooler.
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Sachiko
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Wound in a quilt, pine box, with a flowering plum planted over me.

I would rather rot aerobically than anaerobically.

And I think it would be nice for my family to have a viewing at home, with me on dry ice. My husband may not agree.

re: Organ Donation. My MIL just got a new heart two weeks ago. DH and I are ambivalent.

We want to do more research into organ donation as it's administered before deciding where we stand on it; we feel guilty to not totally support the practice and yet to have profited, emotionally, from it.

We are strict constructionists about life, and felt ooky when we got the phone call telling us that MIL was rushing to the hospital and they were keeping "her donor" alive (or "alive", depending on your opinion) until she was prepped.

It's beautiful and disturbing, organ donation.

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DevilDreamt
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I recently had a conversation about this very subject with a complete stranger. He thought that preference in this matter might be genetic. His ancestors came from England, and mine mostly from Austria, and we both agreed that cremation was the way to go. Nice and clean, and the thought of scattering the ashes to the wind appealed to both of us.

My grandfather donated his body to science. He's been dead for less than a year. I don't remember what university he went through to set up the donation. It made me feel closer to him, in that we both had a high respect for science and education. What pleases me the most is the idea that he may some day be part of a zombie army, which is exactly what I think science should be trying to do these days...

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pooka
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I got an email from family recently that surprised me re: organ donation. They were saying that the participation in organ donation creates demand by which illegal harvesting goes on in prison camps in other countries. I thought that was really out there, though it had no bearing on why I didn't donate my son's organs.

I was just asked at the wrong time in the wrong way, or maybe I was in a wrong state of mind. It was "you son is dead, if we can use his organs, we have to act quickly" I think it may have been a different case because he'd been dead for a bit and they had been trying to resucitate.

I think organ donation is a generous thing that can extend and improve life. There may come a time, if we turn to cloning, that could change my attitude.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiko:
[QB] re: Organ Donation. My MIL just got a new heart two weeks ago. DH and I are ambivalent.

What do you see as the negatives of the practice?

quote:
We are strict constructionists about life
I don't know what this means. Could you elaborate?
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Sachiko
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I agree with organ donation in theory.

I buy my clothes at Goodwill; I think things with use left in them should be used, and it is decent to give things we don't need anymore to those who can.

However, I have concerns about how organ donation programs are administered.

I am a "strict constructionist" about life in that I feel we should err on the side of life as regards human embryos/fetuses/babies (pick the philosophically charged term you like).

That is, though I don't know when the spirit enters or leaves the body, human bodies are still more than just meat puppets.

I love the idea of organ donation as a gift from the grave; I don't like it when I think of it as utilitarianism invading the sense of the divine human body.

It disturbs me to think my MIL's donor was "kept alive" until their heart was cut out. I think we first seek to preserve the original relationship--that is, if your were born with that heart in your body, no matter how much someone else needs it, you have first dibs, and that's not selfish.

I have heard many stories about people being pressured into organ donation. I see that as an evil serving a good cause, and I wonder if the ends justify the means.

For instance, my uncle died last year, and only a few minutes after he "left", a nurse began pressuring my aunt to let in the guys to cut his eyes out.

My brother, who is a nurse, and who acted as a liason for my aunt, came into my uncle's room to find my aunt draping herself over my uncle's body and sobbing and trying to protect him.

Now, I'm not telling that to show that organ donation is evil; scenes like these are a logical byproduct of needing to harvest "living" organs from the freshly dead.

It does tell me that I need to decide on how I feel about organ donation NOW, and not when nurses with coolers and scalpels are shoving me aside so they can get to my husband's precious and stiffening body.

I want people who need organs to live, but not at the expense of the already living.

I think our humanity is defined not by how we look--whether our body is intact or human-looking or baby-looking, but is defined by how we treat others, especially the weak, vulnerable, or voiceless.

That's why I hate the organ donation issue. It's life versus life. I don't want to support a program that devalues any human life that is not considered qualitative enough for continuation, even if they are in a coma, or severely disabled.

I need to research more on how organ donation programs are administered. I fear that I'll find that too many medical people pressure people into giving up family members that are technically alive, but note alive "enough", for the sake of organs. I cannot support that.

(and now that I'm repeating myself I'll end my post. [Smile] )

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Jhai
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Personally, I don't see any legitimate** organ donation system as being, in any way as "life versus live". Once the mind is gone, the person is gone. The body is just meat, and should be used to the best benefit of those living, whether that means being buried in perfect condition to please to the family of the deceased, or being stripped of every organ to help those in need.

But I'm a godless heathen/Hindu, too. I hope my husband either donates everything - to people or science. Second best would be to do whatever makes the most people happy. But I can't stand the thought of spending thousands of dollars on a funeral (especially since we're not religious in that way) when that money could save children from starving to death.


**As in, not like the Chinese organ "donation" system.

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Sachiko
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Define "mind is gone".

At its logical conclusion, would this mean that anyone far more intelligent/aware than I am (and I am a real woogatherer sometimes) has greater claim upon my organs?

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Jhai
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No - even if you're really, really stupid, you're still sentient. By "mind is gone" I essentially mean brain death, or such extensive injury that there's no possibility of the person regaining any mental function. It's pretty easy to see medically at this point whether there's no electrical activity happening in the brain or not. Obviously, this will be a moving point, depending on medical capability.
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Sachiko
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Well, see, and this is where my "strict constructionism" kicks in.

Because it's a moving point, I do not trust it.

I'm not a Luddite or an anti-medical establishment person (though calling it "the medical establishment" certainly does make me sound like I'm against it [Smile] )

but if it is going to be a moving point, then I would rather err on the side of Life, and life as it presents itself in the original ownership of body--you get first dibs on the organs you're born with.

Like I said, I obviously need to research this a lot more. These are only my gut reactions to the issue.

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Jhai
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Ahhh, long post just was eaten!

Briefly, what is "terminal" is always a moving point in the medical community. Before respiratory technology became available, people whose lungs stopped spontaneously breathing would be dead at that point, even if now we could keep them breathing for pretty much forever, and hope for a breakthrough for the patient's condition.

If organ transplantation was available before respirators were (pretty sure it wasn't, but keep with me...), I'd say it would be perfectly okay for harvest that not-breathing person's organs (once it's clear that they aren't going to start breathing on their own in a minute). Today, not okay. In that time period they are dead, even if they wouldn't be today.

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MEC
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I thought this article might interest those in this thread:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/05/09/dead-bodies-lye.html

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pooka
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Is it really any greener than cremation? I mean, where do they get the lye? What concentration is it when it goes down the drain?
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ketchupqueen
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Jhai, I think I pretty much agree with that last point. Medical technology advances, we need to make sure ethics keeps up. My grandfather died of kidney failure; experimental (at the time) dialysis kept him alive 5 days longer than he would have lived without it, but ultimately was ineffective (too primitive and too late.) The decisions about whether to put him on or not were very complicated back then, as was the decision to discontinue it because it was ineffective. Now, modern dialysis would have let him live for years with his condition, and ultimately he might have gotten a transplant eventually. But he didn't live until now.
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cremationurns
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(Post Removed by Janitor Blade. Not the optimal way to serve Spam.)

[ January 17, 2012, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]

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Dan_Frank
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Interesting suggestion! My preferred method is to dump me somewhere out of the way and let the carrion eaters go to town.

Also... whistled.

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Jhai
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And here I thought this topic was bumped because of the recent rather fascinating article from The Awl on the funeral industry. Apparently "in liberal secular states" cremations rates are up from single digits to more than half of all disposals.
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Dan_Frank
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Makes sense.

On a more serious note, it's what I would choose. Whatever's the cheapest, most efficient way to get rid of my corpse is my preferred method.

Unless my loved ones want to keep me around for sentimental reasons, I suppose. Is it legal to taxidermy a human?

That was a less serious more serious note than I expected it to be.

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BlackBlade
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I'm probably gonna go with cremation. If my family wants to erect a memorial that's fine, but I don't want to sit out in some graveyard taking up space the living could be using.
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kmbboots
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Using for what!?! [Wink]
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Jake
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Fracking?
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Dan_Frank
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I don't think there are any cemeteries old enough for the human remains to have concentrated into fossil fuels.

...Yet.

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Glenn Arnold
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Mushroom death suit.
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