posted
Because he thinks that by understanding evil, and why someone is evil, we can fix it. This is better than punishing and destroying evil to him. He probabably thinks that because the Joker might have been abused as a kid, he should be rehabilitated for his crimes instead of being prevented from commiting them again. Like all those poor child molesters who were molested when they were kids. lets just let them run about and keep molesting kids, because they sure don't belong in jail, since it isn't their fault! Right?
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Somehow I seriously doubt that he thinks child molesters who were themselves molested as children should be permitted to "run about and keep molesting kids." I know it's a pain to perceive nuance, but you might want to try. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:And BTW, I don't agree that people can choose what to do with their lives despite their experiences. That's just too similar to the myth that anyone can rise from poverty if they just make the right choices. It's not that simple.
Anyone can rise from poverty if they just make the right choices. Making the right choices is not simple. Even after a right choice is made things are not simple. People can sabotage themselves for many reasons. I have helped many people try to lose weight. Losing weight at its simplest means consuming less calories than you burn. The actual logistics and lifestyle changes needed to make weight loss occur can be monumental. Anyone can do it, but most people will not.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I guess no, TOm Davidson. But he probably doesn't think they belong in jail, especially if hey can prove they were molested when they were kids too.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Pretty sure not, dude. And you might want to hang around a bit longer before making accusations like that about other members?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:I guess no, TOm Davidson. But he probably doesn't think they belong in jail, especially if hey can prove they were molested when they were kids too.
Thanks for reading my mind. You are absolutely right!
quote:Anyone can do it, but most people will not.
That's like saying that anyone can invent nuclear fusion but most people will not.
One thing I learned as a math teacher is that people who can't do math really don't understand the idea that money follows the rules of addition and subtraction. It's not a matter of making bad choices, it's a matter of not being capable of understanding how to make good choices.
As to the Joker, it's pretty clear he's a lost cause. The point isn't to "fix" him, nor is it to exonerate him, but to prevent more of him.
And yes, even though (if he actually existed) he clearly is evil, I still feel sympathy for whatever caused him to be the way he is.
Returning to my original point: The writers must have put this in for a reason. The fact that he keeps referring to how he got his scars is intended to make us wonder: How did he get his scars? And what else might have happened that could create such a monster? The whole point was to make a complex villain. I think the scene was filmed with this in mind. The purpose of the Joker (especially in this movie) is not merely to drive the plot forward, but to get the audience thinking.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
So every time you see violence, you think of an abused child? I don't think the Joker was abused by his father, but apparently you were.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:I don't think the Joker was abused by his father, but apparently you were.
Not acceptable.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Elmer was saying "apparently you were (thinking the joker was abused by his father)."
At least I sure hope he wasn't throwing around allegations of child abuse for having a different opinion.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Now that I read it it sounds much more offensive than I meant it. But really. Did anyone else think of child abuse during that scene? I don't see any other reason you would, unless there was child abuse in your life. I would delete it since you think it is unacceptable, but it's quoted now so...
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
My understanding from my undergraduate studies is that the majority of people who were abused as children do NOT abuse others when they are adults. HOWEVER, the vast majority of those who abuse as adults were abused as children.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:So every time you see violence, you think of an abused child?
There was quite a bit of violence in The Dark Knight that didn't make me think of an abused child. Likewise in many other violent movies. But the scene between Batman and Joker in police lock-up did, specifically because Batman was trying so hard to exert control, and becoming violent when the Joker made his efforts ineffectual. But it was both characters' behavior that got me thinking about it. Joker refusing to give in to pain, and goading Batman to lose control are characteristic of the coping mechanisms of abused children.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Batman's origin is not in question, but you bring up an important point. The whole Batman story is about the effect a traumatic experience had on a child. It should be a natural counterpoint to show someone whose reaction is similar, but with a different moral orientation. Striking contrast there.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
See, what I got from that scene was like when cops are abusive, or prison guards are. That coping mechanism isn't just for children.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
There were a couple of points in the movie where the Joker reminded me of a child putting on an act. I'm not going to be able to give the specific lines now, it's been too long since I saw it, but they're the points where something's not going his way, or he doesn't agree with something someone says, and he suddenly scowls for a moment and kinda mutters something under his breath. I want to say one of them was "Not funny," but I could be thinking of a different version. Anyway, I can totally see what Glenn's getting at in that scene.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Perhaps you are thinking of when he first appears to the mob bosses and makes his proposal. One of them calls him crazy. He says, "No, I'm not. I'm not crazy."
posted
The Joker tells the story about how his father abused him, so a person can be excused for having that image in his head even though it's obvious all the joker does is lie about his past.
How come I need to wait to start making comments about what other people say? Glen Arnold said something stupid, and I made an analogy about it. I came here after reading Orson Scott Cards review of the movie, which is my favorite movie right now, and I saw a forum about the movie, and then I see someone say something about the Joker that I hear others in politics about criminals and child molestors in particular. BUt I can't say anything because I haven't been around long enought? Can someone please explain this to me?
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:How come I need to wait to start making comments about what other people say?
It makes you look both less hostile and less ridiculously ignorant. If you knew Glenn better, you would know that suggesting that he's in favor of letting child molesters roam free is more than a little histronic.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:How come I need to wait to start making comments about what other people say?
You don't need to. I think ElJay was working from the belief that if you were more familiar with the forum and the people on it, than you would be less likely to make comments that make you look as foolish as the ones you made did.
You should feel free to make whatever comments you want to, within the bounds of the TOS. But be aware that the ones you've made so far have reflected poorly on you.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
You didn't make an analogy about it. You took something he said and used it to jump to conclusions about what else he "probably" believes.
You don't have to wait at all before you make comments about what other people say, but when you're joining a discussion with a bunch of people you don't know, it's considered good manners to stick to a certain level of formality. Speculating about how they want to treat child molestors is beyond that. Plus, this forum in general tends to be more polite than the wider Internet. Calling other people's ideas stupid is generally frowned at. You're welcome to disagree, but you'll get a lot further if you do it without disparaging people or their ideas.
Glenn Arnold got something different out of that scene in the movie than you did. It's certainly up for interpretation, and this thread is for discussion what different people thought about the movie. You can say you didn't get the same thing out of the scene without calling his idea stupid.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Also, welcome to Hatrack. Are you a fan of OSC, or did you just come across his review because you were looking for stuff about The Dark Knight?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Perhaps you are thinking of when he first appears to the mob bosses and makes his proposal. One of them calls him crazy. He says, "No, I'm not. I'm not crazy."
Yeah, it's not like he's defensively saying "I'm NOT crazy." And he doesn't say the line as if he minds being called crazy. It's like he's saying "there's something about me you don't know, but crazy isn't it."
Makes me really wish that Ledger hadn't died (for selfish reasons, as opposed to the other reasons I wish he hadn't died), because I doubt anyone with the acting chops to take over the role will be willing to be measured against Ledger's performance, but I really want to see the movie where the Joker's backstory is told.
Which brings me to the next question: Who (if anybody) would be capable of taking over the role? The one that comes to mind is Brad Pitt (think 12 monkeys).
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: but I really want to see the movie where the Joker's backstory is told.
I don't. Oh, how I don't. I would have loved to see a dozen more Batman movies with Ledger playing the Joker, but that would not be one of them.
One of my favorite moments is when he tells Rachel the 2nd version of how he got the scars, which completely contradicts the first.
"Something like that happened to ME, you know. I... I'm not exactly sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another..." - The Killing Joke
posted
He's not built like Ledger at all, but my other favorite Hollywood-chameleon is Ryan Gosling.
Brad Pitt could be okay but I don't think they could pile on enough makeup to make me forget that it was him.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think OSC missed the mark on moral choices in this film. There was never any morality in letting the joker lieve and capturing him to bring him to justice. The Joker announced he would kill. killed many, and they just locked him up. There is a simple solution. Kill him the second you see him. By not killing him, the so called good guys did in fact allow more people to die. Had he just been run down by a bat cycle, everyone would have been better off, but then you wouldn't get to the whole convoluted one bad day story line.
Terrorists of this sort do not need to be brought to trial. They should be hunted and killed mercilessly.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I read a few other threads in the forum and this seems like a more polite place than the rest of the internet, but then again it seems like there is a lot of disrespect too. Ok, I'm new here, but did I look foolish, or was I just being ignorant, because that I can accept. Everyone has ignorance. All I knew about Glenn Arnold was just that he said a stupid thing. I am ignorant of anything else about him and thats not my fault.
I like Orson Scott Card and so when someone sent me a link to his review of Batman I came here. I'm reading some of his older reviews now.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote: I wonder how the advertisers feel about that?
I am fascinated by the desire to "tell on" people when they are behaving in ways we don't like.
A few months ago I had a disagreement with a roommate over, oh, I don't even remember what. The temperature, I imagine, but other things were thrown in there.
My roommate threatened that if I did not follow what she had decided, she would tell the landlord.
I would pay real money to listen in to that phone call. The appeal to the interest of the advertisers strikes me as being in the same vein.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:You guys aren't very welcoming to new people. I wonder how the advertisers feel about that?
Okay, that made me smile.
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quote:All I knew about Glenn Arnold was just that he said a stupid thing. I am ignorant of anything else about him and thats not my fault.
A few things make you look foolish.
First, someone disagreeing with you doesn't make what they say stupid. And, by and large, we're not really impressed or influenced by unbacked up assertions of this.
Second, in this particular case, what Glenn said clearly isn't what you are trying to extrapolate it to.
Third, ignorance doesn't make you look foolish. Talking about what you don't know about as if you do or making wild, perjorative assumptions about someone, especially to people who actually know that person pretty well, does.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:All I knew about Glenn Arnold was just that he said a stupid thing. I am ignorant of anything else about him and thats not my fault.
It's not you fault, but it is my whole point. Making assumptions about people you don't know anything about looks foolish. When you're ignorant about someone's views on something, it's better to ask polite questions or wait and learn more about them, instead of immediately attacking.
There is quite a bit of disrespect here, you're right, but most of it is between people you've been here for years and know that they don't agree and don't respect each other's opinions. An excellent case in point is the everyone against King of Men discussion currently going on in the Dialisys thread. The weight of battles and grudges behind that one is practically crushing. So why come in trying to make enemies straight off the bat? Wait until you get to know people a little, and then you can pick who really deserves your scorn.
Oh, yeah, and I don't think google ads really cares about how welcoming we are. We've had giant arguments about how we treat newbies, too, though, if that makes you feel better.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:We've had giant arguments about how we treat newbies, too, though, if that makes you feel better.
At the risk of starting them up again, I'm still glad that we stopped the policy of sending newbies gift baskets when they joined and I don't care who knows it. That was getting really expensive and most of the little buggers didn't even send back thank you cards.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Plus it was a total waste with the ones who didn't stay more than a week. What's the point of making them feel welcome if they're just gonna run off in a few days anyway?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
To think of the nights I stayed up, weaving.
I can just see them, skipping through their Facebooks and their YouTubes, happily swinging their baskets to and fro, not knowing and not caring of my pain.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Didn't you do it underwater, too? I mean, the cost of scuba equipment alone I would think warrents at least a nice bottle of wine sent back in appreciation.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Didn't you do it underwater, too? I mean, the cost of scuba equipment alone I would think warrents at least a nice bottle of wine sent back in appreciation.
Unfortunately, I flunked out of my UWBW program, so I never got to the point where we were using scuba. I'm only comfortable weaving while using a stiff reed or some sort of plastic hose or, failing that, holding my breath for a really long time.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I'm glad I made yo smile Mr Squicky. Your name kinda makes me smile, buy I dont know exactly why. Too bad that othe person thought I was gonna tell on this place to the google ads. But he wasn't disagreeing with me, I was the one disagreeing with him. But even though you say that someone disagreeing with you doesnt make that person foolish, yyou tell me I'm foolish for saying something you disagree with. I was willing to admit that I'm ignorant about some things, but it looks like none of you will rest until I admit that I am foolish too. Not a very welcoming bunch. I just wanted to talk about the Batman movie. I should go make friends with that Jesus guy who everyone is against. If no one wants to back him up, I guess I will since already I'm not welcome in this weird group of people.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:But even though you say that someone disagreeing with you doesnt make that person foolish, yyou tell me I'm foolish for saying something you disagree with.
Squicky and ElJay were both pretty specific in saying that it was the wild assumptions that made you look foolish, not that they disagreed with you. There is also an important difference between "It makes you look foolish when you do X" which people have said and "You are a fool" which people have not.
And, while I can't speak for everyone of course, I don't think anyone wants you to admit that you were foolish. I'd say an apology to Glenn would be nice though. Oh, and a few people pointing out how you could better interact with the community is not an unwelcoming act, btw.
quote:I just wanted to talk about the Batman movie.
Please do. For myself, I have not yet gone back to see it the second time. I really want to, but things have been hectic and there have been other movies I wanted to see too. I really do want to catch it at least once more on the big screen.
posted
(edit: Darnnit, there was a post that made this make sense that got deleted.)
And you might get a gift basket.
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Tara, I don't think anyone involved in this cares if you admit to us that you were foolish or wrong. We'd just like for you to understand why what you wrote makes it difficult for us to take it seriously, and, in the best case, adjust your approach here. For example, calling us all Jesus haters might be a less than optimal way to go about things.
There's no need for any public acknowledgement. If you want to talk about the Batman movie, go ahead. If you want to talk about how and why you disagree with the notion of the utility of understanding what experiences people have had that may have influenced their evil actions, I don't think anyone will have a problem with that.
If you want to keep on as you have been, people are probably not going to take you seriously. Some of them, myself included, are just going to find you amusing. Others are likely not to consider you worth their time.
posted
Sorry. I saw that Enig had said it better, and I didn't want to be piling on too hard. I'm not against newbies, you know. I'm just not sending them flowers anymore. No matter what you say, you temptress.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
So... I thought Batman's white eyes sonar technology looked pretty ridiculous. Granted, now Batman looks more like he does in the comic books. But still, it does not translate well across mediums. Media? Whatever.
Plus, all the gadgetry to allow his head to swivel around looked kind of weird. I don't know, his costume looked slightly cooler when his cowl was attached to his shoulders. Slightly impractical, though.
I thought the electric shock against anyone trying to unmask him was a bit unrealistic. You have to be pretty foolhardy to discharge electricity so close to your unprotected face. Then again, it's Batman.
Posts: 339 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
I thought the sonar-vision was pretty cool despite being absolutely horrible to have as your entire field of vision. "It's a good thing Batman doesn't have epilepsy" was my first response. And the pseudo-science behind it was much more tolerable than the microwave thingy from the last movie.
I liked the electric shock on the mask thing because it is straight out of the comics, from the Hush storyline.
posted
I absolutely hated the sonar thing. It really detracted from my enjoyment of the climax scene. If I was in charge, that (along with the whole subplot with the cell-phone surveillance) would have been cut.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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