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Author Topic: PETA and Breast Milk Ice Cream
breyerchic04
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Last year I did pre kindergarten evaluations at the school my mom teaches at (and where I did my EDU Psych service learning). There was a boy there who still was breast fed in the morning and given a bottle of pumped milk at night. He tested high enough to go into a standard classroom. It had a few of the teachers slightly freaked out, I haven't heard how he's doing since school started.
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steven
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I would imagine it would be pretty easy for breast milk to turn to cheese. I've seen it curdle into curds back when my ex-wife used to pump her milk out for Skyler to drink later. Leave it out at room temp for a while, it will definitely curdle.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I would imagine it would be pretty easy for breast milk to turn to cheese. I've seen it curdle into curds back when my ex-wife used to pump her milk out for Skyler to drink later. Leave it out at room temp for a while, it will definitely curdle.

Curdle as in spoil, yes. Form real curds suitable for cheese formation; no. Not enough casein, IIRC. (80% of cow's milk protein is casein, while only 40% of human milk is. Also, human casein is beta-casein, not κ-casein. Casein is what forms the curds.)

I have read about women managing to make a soft cheese, probably along the lines of thin cream cheese or what Israelis call "white cheese", from breast milk.

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
A thought occurs, inspired by those kosher food threads that seem to proliferate here.

They do? Have we had more than one (maybe two) in recent memory?

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Is it a recursive thing? (i.e. If "you are what you eat" and you keep kosher, is your breast milk kosher?)

IIRC, technically no, but preferably yes. (But I'm basing that primarily on an extra-halachic source (for those who will know what I'm talking about, Moshe and the coal), and it's not really something that comes up too often!)

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
... This sounds like an opportunity to exploit the underprivileged.

You can hire [wet nurses] to breastfeed babies, does that count as exploitation too?
It can, and at certain times in history, it certainly did. These days I would be far more concerned about the relevant health risks, as dkw pointed out.
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by breyerchic04:
Last year I did pre kindergarten evaluations at the school my mom teaches at (and where I did my EDU Psych service learning). There was a boy there who still was breast fed in the morning and given a bottle of pumped milk at night. He tested high enough to go into a standard classroom. It had a few of the teachers slightly freaked out, I haven't heard how he's doing since school started.

How did that even come up???
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rivka
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"What'd you have for breakfast this morning?" [Wink]
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breyerchic04
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I was sitting with the kids not being tested at one point, and he told me he wanted a bottle, I casually mentioned it to the teacher who talked to his mom. It was obviously a comfort, and that mommy wanted to be close to her little boy (she had two younger girls).
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ketchupqueen
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Ah, got it.

Even if my kids got pumped milk, after they turned one they wouldn't get it in a bottle! I am a firm believer in cup training by a year, no matter what's going IN the cup (in our case usually juice or water, not cow milk, since my kids continue to nurse past that point.)

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brojack17
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One more name... Soylent Cream.
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breyerchic04
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That day really made me sure I don't want to teach kindergarten, it's all lines, snot and tying shoes.
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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by Xann.:
So they like cows better than people? Or do they think cows don't want to give up there milk?

On you-tube there are news stories about breastfeeding until i think 10, and i know one of 8.

I'm reminded of that South Park episode....when PETA forces them to change their school mascot (which was a cow), and two of the options are Indians and Braves.

Wendy: But aren't Indians and Braves just as offensive?
Mr. Garrison: Well, that's okay, Wendy. PETA doesn't care about people.

-pH

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ketchupqueen
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Ha! That's funny, if I taught something it would be preschool, I think.

Emma has started kindergarten and loves it. She is sounding out short words now, and is about eight letters into her writing curriculum, and I'm seeing marked improvement. And she's learned that any number subtracted from itself is zero. [Smile]

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breyerchic04
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Awesome. I personally think preschool would be easier than kindergarten because there aren't standards that have to be taught so you do have an opportunity to combine those basic life skills with fundamentals of learning subjects and add in creative play.
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ketchupqueen
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Hmm, I remember a lot of that in kindergarten, though.

I had an AWESOME kindergarten teacher. I am trying to emulate her as I begin to teach Emma. She made everything both fun and interesting.

Amusingly enough, some of our most learning-rich activities, if not labeled as such, will make Emma whine that she "wants to do homeschool now!" By which she means, she wants her formal writing practice and phonics instruction and other workbook and textbook-y things, lol.

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breyerchic04
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Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.
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brojack17
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KQ,
You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.

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Mucus
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Out of curiosity, would people be as disturbed by the thought of monkey milk? How about possum milk?
I wonder how close the mammal has to be to human before people get weirded out.

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brojack17
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I'm weirded out by it being human milk. I don't want to use milk product from ANY other animal though. I tried goat milk once and hated it.
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Occasional
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The problem, other than chemical ones that have been discussed such as cheese, is quantity. There just isn't enough breast milk in humans to sustain a product. I am not grossed out by the human milk idea considering pasturization is used. However, it is just insanely unproductive. There is a reason cows and goats are used vs. any other mammal on the planet. I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow. Can anyone find production differences?
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mr_porteiro_head
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On reason why it doesn't make sense to get all our dairy from human lactaion: humans aren't capable of digesting cellulose.

Rumens (cows, goats, sheep, etc.) are really nice food sources because they are able to convert inedible (to us) material and turn it into food (themselves, or their milk).

quote:
I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
I'd have a problem with it, because if I did that, it would be to get a rise out of them. It's obnoxious when they do it, and it wouldn't be any better if I did it to them.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
There is a reason cows and goats are used vs. any other mammal on the planet.
Actually, some sheep are raised for their milk (to be made into cheese).

quote:
I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow.
I'd be really surprised if it were that low.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:
I can't say this for a fact, but I imagine it takes ten humans for one cow.
I'd be really surprised if it were that low.
That depends.

Some women produce more than others.

Are the women feeding a baby or just pumping milk?

My baby probably gets 30-40 ounces a day. (Since it's direct nursing, I don't know for sure.) When I pump consistently every morning, I get about 5 oz. If I pumped more often, I could probably get more, but this would require a LOT of work.

If humans were milked the way cows were then I imagine we could produce a lot of milk. Humans are technically capable of nursing twins, triplet, even more babies -- whatever they demand. If you hooked a human up to a pump all day long and fed them some hormones....

But of course, that would be inhumane, which I imagine is PETA's point.

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Raymond Arnold
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This probably won't change the minds of people who see PETA as a bunch of crazy freaks, but it's certainly stirring up discussion. I'd have to echo the people saying it's a clever move on PETA's part. There's nothing inherently wrong with drinking human milk, it just has all kinds of cultural stigma against it. (Truth be told, that same cultural stigma I've been raised with since childhood makes me unlikely to try it myself, but I don't pretend I have any logical reasoning for avoiding it)

Regardless, this wouldn't actually work on the Ben and Jerry's scale. I think a small independent restaurant could do this relatively humanely without turning it into exploitation (not so sure about checking the health of the mother... if they get one doctor they trust and require the women to have a physical before signing on... dunno. Maybe).

But if it suddenly looked profitable, I'm pretty sure a large company would find a way to make it just as despicable as the way many cows are treated now. (For the record, I have no problem with hunting or traditional farming, but no matter how you see animals as compared to people, factory farming is terrible)

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kmbboots
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What does PETA think will happen to cows if humans didn't use them for meat and milk?
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Raymond Arnold
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I dunno what "PETA" the collective entity believes, but I if you just stop forcing cows to reproduce far beyond what they'll biologically supposed to, their population levels will drop down to what they'd be before human intervention.

To be fair... I'm not sure what happens after that. I think all cows in the US are domesticated at this point, and few people would want to take them in as pets without getting anything in return. But again, I'm not opposed to farming in general, just the way it's currently handled.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
I don't see animals and humans as on par with each other, so I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.

http://www.3dweb.no/galleri/stuestolbm/bilder/anim1.swf
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I dunno what "PETA" the collective entity believes, but I if you just stop forcing cows to reproduce far beyond what they'll biologically supposed to, their population levels will drop down to what they'd be before human intervention.

To be fair... I'm not sure what happens after that. I think all cows in the US are domesticated at this point, and few people would want to take them in as pets without getting anything in return. But again, I'm not opposed to farming in general, just the way it's currently handled.

Cows have been domesticated for about 9000 years. There is no meaningful "before human intervention". Cows as they are now, exist because humans found them useful. We can't exactly release them back into the wild. I suppose some could be kept as oddities in zoos or preserves (or religious icons) but that is about it as far as I can tell.
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BannaOj
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kmb, I understand and agree with your general point. But, cows actually did survive "in the wild" reasonably well, even a hundred and 50 years ago. They are an extremely adaptable species. Current beef cattle (last 50 or so years), not quite as well because the calves are so big they often need human aid to give birth, because humans have been breeding them that way. But, especially in the southern areas of the U.S. after the Civil War there were lots of "feral" cows running around and multiplying just fine on their own. "Bushwhacker" came from someone who was running wild cows out of the bush to take to market. The cows survived pretty well without human intervention, the only reason why the humans intervened is because they wanted to eat them.

If I recall correctly the Fields museum has some other varieties of "wild" cow breeds on display, many of which are now extinct, because more "domestic" breeds have taken over with human intervention.

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breyerchic04
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We have neighbors that are more or less running cows wild with no intervention (other than a haybale in the field). They're obviously crossbreds, some angus, hereford, some type of tall dairy cow (probably holstein), maybe some sort of longhorn or brama. I know he doesn't intervene in births often, and they certainly aren't milked.
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kmbboots
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My cousins in Ireland have cows that they don't milk as well, mostly so they can keep their cow license and their land. I suppose that some feral cattle could manage like the deer we see wandering around in the suburbs. A little longer in rural areas as long as the farmers didn't want to use the land for anything else. But talking about cows as if they weren't domesticated animals, which is what PETA is doing, doesn't make any sense.

The vast majority of them would starve or freeze or just plain die if humans didn't have a practical interest in cultivating them.

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
One more name... Soylent Cream.

[Hail]
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romanylass
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs.M:
There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.

I agree.
I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste.
But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:


quote:
I would have no problem wearing a fur to a PETA meeting while eating ice cream, and then breaking out a burger.
I'd have a problem with it, because if I did that, it would be to get a rise out of them. It's obnoxious when they do it, and it wouldn't be any better if I did it to them.
I didn't say I would do it, but that I had no objections to doing it on moral grounds. [Big Grin]

If I did that specifically to get a rise I would agree with you. My point was that I could care less what their ideas are as long as they don't try to force me to act as they do.

If you can't distinguish why humans and animals deserve different rights then the problem is with you, IMO.

And if any of them tried to throw animal blood one me I would pelt them with pig's ears and rawhide chips from the pet store...then spray them with pepper spray......made from organic peppers. [Big Grin]


Oh, the horror! [Evil]

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by romanylass:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs.M:
There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.

I agree.
I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste.
But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.

OK, I am insanely curious...how do you make ice cream out of breast milk? (I've got a huge emergency freezer stash that may expire before I get to use it anyway....might experiment. [Smile] )
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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
If you can't distinguish why humans and animals deserve different rights then the problem is with you, IMO.
And why is that, precisely? Because humans are smarter? Then what about retarded or braindead people?

Because humans have souls? Prove it.

Anything capable of feeling pain deserves, at the very least, to not suffer unnecessarily, which is something the food industry fails miserably at.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by breyerchic04:
Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.

Oh, yeah, that's true, for sure. They went to a mandatory full day in the district I grew up in *wince*

I don't believe in full-day kindy.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
KQ,
You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.

We're homeschooling. [Smile]
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Darth_Mauve
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quote:
how do you make ice cream out of breast milk?
You start with a really, really, cold pump....
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RackhamsRazor
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Just in case anyone was wondering, cows average about 80lbs of milk per day.
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Raymond Arnold
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Wha? Seriously? That's... a lot. How much does a cow even weigh?
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scifibum
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80lbs is about 10 gallons. 10 humans might be able to make a gallon each if they pumped like mad and had special diets and everything, but it wouldn't be easy.

I think human ice cream would be insanely expensive.

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RackhamsRazor
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A Holstein might weigh about 1400 lbs.
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scholarette
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Originally posted by breyerchic04:
Well I remember a lot of that in kindergarten too. It's that (in my state at least) the requirements from kindergarten have gotten much more strict in the last 15 years.

Oh, yeah, that's true, for sure. They went to a mandatory full day in the district I grew up in *wince*

I don't believe in full-day kindy.

I keep hearing people say this is better for the kids, but it seems so wrong to me. I think we are overloading the poor kid's brains so they learn less.
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ketchupqueen
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Oh, but scholarette, you know if you don't enroll your child in preschool at 2 and send her to full-day kindy at 5, she will never get into the good colleges.
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breyerchic04
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I like it to be a choice. At the school I've worked with extensively they have one class of full day and two half day classes (most years the same teacher, this year different half time teachers). It is a Title One that does literacy groups and reading recovery. Reading recovery helps the bottom third of students in first grade. Literacy groups are done with all kindergarten and first grade students and the lowest third of second graders. Last year nearly all of the students in Reading Recovery and second grade Lit groups had been in half day kindergarten. After that most of them are at grade level. Obviously the half day kindergarten worked for some kids, but for others full day would have been a better choice. I don't think it really corresponds to the good colleges. It's just more time in school (my state also has one of the latest start ages in the country so we're getting older kindergarteners anyway).
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ketchupqueen
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I don't mind it being a choice, though for non-high-risk or specially abled kids I don't think it's usually the best choice.

I do mind making it mandatory, especially in a population of very low-risk kids (the district I grew up in is mostly high-income with very low ESL and low-income populations; many of the parents are professionals or scientists. About a third of my class in elementary school had parents who worked at JPL.) From what I hear from parents and teachers at the school I went to, kindy since NCLB is nothing like kindy when I was going. And that makes me sad.

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romanylass
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
quote:
Originally posted by romanylass:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs.M:
There are so many babies whose mothers can't nurse that desperately need any donated breastmilk that I can't imagine ever using it to make ice cream. One of Aerin's NICU neighbors got breastmilk from a milk bank because his mother was on chemo and couldn't nurse him herself. That is who needs any spare breastmilk. It's not easy to get for critically ill babies, so I can't imagine giving (or selling) any to those who don't need it. This is a very precious and limited commodity and to suggest using it for commercial purposes, rather than to help sick children, is awful. I'm sure this is a publicity stunt, but it's pretty sickening.

I agree.
I am a huge fan of breastmilk, and I have made homemade ice cream from it ( for my very allergic daughter's first birthday). Had to stay away from garlic for days, too, though it had nice mocha undertaste.
But this is a sill publicity stunt, and if PETA actually wanted to use less moo milk, they'd ask them to add soy or coconut milk desserts to their repetoire.

OK, I am insanely curious...how do you make ice cream out of breast milk? (I've got a huge emergency freezer stash that may expire before I get to use it anyway....might experiment. [Smile] )
We have an ice cream maker, we just used the ice milk recipe and replaced it with breast milk. Now we use the maker for the aforementioned coconut milk desserts.
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ketchupqueen
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Care to share the coconut milk recipe? [Big Grin]
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brojack17
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
KQ,
You could always supplement her teaching at home. This book is really meant for the bridge from PreK to K but it would proabably work for you.

We're homeschooling. [Smile]
Or just do that. [Smile]
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by romanylass:
We have an ice cream maker, we just used the ice milk recipe and replaced it with breast milk. Now we use the maker for the aforementioned coconut milk desserts.

Ah, well, I was afraid of that. I'm not sure I want to invest in an ice cream maker. Although I do really enjoy ice cream. [Smile]
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Raymond Arnold
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You can make ice cream without an ice cream maker, it just makes it easier (I don't know if romanylass is talking about some electronic machine or the hand-cranked one my family uses).

You'll probably want to google the instruction but the general gist is:

Small bag - contains milk (preferably whole milk, dunno how it works if you're using breast milk), some sugar, some flavors and something else I'm forgetting, probably cream.

Larger bag - contains ice, salt and the smaller bag.

Shake the Larger bag for a lot. A LOT!!! And ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE THE SMALL BAG IS COMPLETELY SEALED, OR YOU WILL GET SALTY ICE CREAM WHICH TASTES LIKE CRAP.

If you have a hand-cranked ice cream machine, you use that instead of the larger bag.

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