My son is three year old son weighs about 35 lbs. and is tall. The seat says to switch to booster when they hit 40 lbs., and says that the harness straps should be slightly above the shoulders. He is so tall that his shoulders are above the straps by about an inch (he uses the tallest strap setting). He has been taller than the straps since he hit 32 lbs. Right now he is in a get taller phase of his growth, not in a bulk out phase. I can't decide which is safer to move him to booster because of his height, or keep him in the harnesses because of his weight. I have so far just let inertia work and left it the way it is.
On a note that frustrates me, he is taller and weighs more than all of his friends, but they are all in boosters because their parents did not want to work the harness straps anymore.
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I would think it is safer to keep them in a 5-point harness. There may be some car seats out there you can buy which will allow for a taller child. I know there are some that allow for higher weights than 40 lbs. The safest thing would probably be to do some research and find a car seat that fits him better.
I know some parents who are moving their 3-year-olds out of car seats for convenience but I think it's a bad idea. In fact, if a child is still fitting in a car seat, I don't see any reason to take them out of the 5-point harness when they turn 4 (the age at which most states say they can legally go to a booster). I'll let size determine when my son moves, and as he's on the small size, he miht be 5 or 6. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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A five point harness is outgrown when one of three things happens:
1. The weight limit is outgrown. 2. The tops of child's ears (midpoint of the head, roughly) is above the back of the seat. (Note-- this also applies to boosters-- a high back booster is outgrown at this point too, and a low-back booster is outgrown in this regard to the vehicle seatback or headrest.) 3. The shoulders go above the top harness slots.
Having the shoulders above the top harness slots is very dangerous and can cause serious spinal injury in a crash.
If you can give me one measurement, I can recommend a variety of seats that will fit him for a while longer. This is the measurement I need and how to measure it:
To measure for torso height, have the child sit straight up against a wall. Make a mark at the highest part of the shoulders. Move the child and measure from that mark to the floor. This length in inches is the child's torso height.
There are many seats that harness past 40 lbs. and are designed for taller kids on the market now. Ideally children should stay harnessed until they are at least 5 or 6 years of age AND 40 lbs., and have the ability to sit still in the car on every ride you are going to take. (The five or six has to do with hip development as well as ability to sit still. Seven is an even better age in regards to hip development.)
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LOL! By "sit still" I mean, as still as necessary to stay within the confines of the booster seat, not leaning forward, turning around, or unbuckling themselves, keeping the shoulder and lap belts properly positioned. Many kids are capable of this by 5, most by 6, and some even by 4.
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Also, as a learning tool, while learning how to sit properly, seatbelts with switchable locking retractors can be locked while the child is in the booster.
I want to reiterate that using a harness outgrown by height is extremely dangerous-- so dangerous that I loaned Bridget's backup seat to Emma's dance class friend while her mom shops for a taller seat for her, because I was so worried about what would happen if they were in a crash. Bridget's BRAND NEW backup seat, that I had just bought. I'd rather not have a backup for Bridget (something that does worry me) than have a child be in a seat outgrown by height.
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I have a car seat question, too! My little one is 9 months, 29 inches long, and 21 lbs, 9 oz.
We have a chicco infant seat with a 22-pound weight limit, and 30 inches height limit, so she's very close to the limit, even though she is still using the middle strap height.
I would like her to be rear-facing as long as possible. What seat do you recommend?
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First of all, the length limits on carseats are "more what you would call guidelines."
The seat is not outgrown until she has less than one inch between the top of her head and the top of the shell (hard shell, not cover); conversely, if she has less than one inch already, even though she is not at the length "limit" (guideline) she needs to be in a different seat ASAP. All kids are built individually, and will outgrow seats at different lengths because of weight and torso height.
There are several considerations to choosing a convertible seat. I'm going to give you a few considerations, and you tell me what is most important to you, and I can make recommendations based on that.
-Price-- what's your budget? And are you willing to spend more for seats with better ease of use or added features, or do you just want one that may be harder to install or use, but will be cheaper? -Do you plan to have to ever get 3 passengers across the seat of your car? If so, in carseats/boosters or older kids/adults who won't need one? -What kind of car do you have (make, model, and year?) -Do you plan to do a lot of travel with this seat? -Lastly, do you prefer to buy a seat that will rear-face a long time and then buy a dedicated forward-facing seat (either harness only or combo harness/booster) when the time comes that is outgrown forward-facing (which will happen sooner in forty pound limit seats) or do you want a seat that will probably last until booster age, and when it's outgrown buy a dedicated booster?
Based on those factors I can make better suggestions. (You're in the U.S., right?)
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I have a simplicity bassinet that I have to return because it was recalled, and that will give me about $100 for the car seat. I don't have much money at all, but I could probably get a little more if I needed to. Under $200 would be best.
We do plan to have at least one more child, but we plan to wait until we're in better circumstances. So let's say no?
We have a 2004 hyundai santa fe. We don't travel a lot, but when we do, it's all at once. 5+ hours at a time.
As for your last question, I don't know. I would prefer to have just one more seat, but I'm okay with buying another one in a few years. I imagine that if we ever do have 3 kids, we're going to need more than one seat anyway. (And we may get lucky enough that the kids outgrow them all at the same time... yeah right!)
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There are currently no seats that rear- and forward-face harness AND make a good booster. There are seats that make a good forward-facing harness and booster, and there are seats that claim to do all three-- but the ones that claim to do all three do not actually make a good booster. So eventually you will have to buy another seat, be it combo seat and booster. Luckily there are now some great, inexpensive combo seats on the market. And it will be years before you will have to buy one in any case-- at least 2 years at the least.
In your price range, here are my recommendations (cheapest to most expensive):
-Safety 1st Avenue. This seat only harnesses to 40 lbs. BUT has a very tall shell. It lasts most kids all the way to 40 lbs., even tall skinny ones. My 35 lb., long-torsoed daughters both still fit in it by height and even have room to grow. Rear faces to 35 lbs. (highest limit currently on the U.S. market.) Sometimes needs a chunk of pool noodle or rolled towel to achieve good rear-facing install/recline. About $75-90 depending on store, sales, coupons, etc. (I'm not sure but this seat MAY have an 8 year expiration instead of 6 year. If so it would be an excellent candidate for passing down to a younger sib if stored and cleaned properly and not crashed in that time.)
-Evenflo Triumph Advance. Has a fairly tall shell, infinite adjusting harness (never have to re-thread it), rear-faces to 35 lbs. and forward-faces to 50. Gets many kids to an acceptable booster age. Sometimes the adjustment knobs hit the seatback while rear-facing in cars with very contoured seats (don't know if your car has those, never seen one.) About $120 to $160 depending on sales and on model (regular or deluxe, etc.; there's no specs difference, just make sure it's the ADVANCE, not the regular Triumph.)
-First Years True Fit. This seat has a detachable top portion that you don't have to use until 22 lbs. or bottom part is outgrown by height. When the top part is attached, it has the tallest seat back of any seat currently on the market, great for both rear-facing and forward-facing kids until they don't need to be. Rear-facing harnesses to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 65, and will get most kids to a safe booster age. Between $165 and $200.
The Avenue is available at Sears and K-Mart as well as online; the other two are available at many major retailers including most Targets, if you want to look at them in person.
If you'd like help finding deals on the one you choose, e-mail me, my carseat boards usually keep track of what's the best buy on all these seats on a regular basis. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Is there a safety difference in going for a cheaper seat? I heard that they don't publish the safety ratings because supposedly they all meet the same guidelines. Is that true?
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It is true that all seats meet the minimums required by law. Some, however, are more equal than others, if you know what I mean...
The reason I did not recommend the cheapest seat on the market, the Scenera, which has a shorter shell for forward-facing but actually lasts most kids to the rear-facing limit of 35 lbs., is that it does not have EPS or EPP foam. These are energy absorbing foams that help better distribute the forces in certain kinds of crashes, especially side-impact crashes. I feel it is an important safety feature and the Scenera is the only seat left on the market that does not have it.
Other than that, there are more expensive seats that offer features that can make the seats more safe in certain kinds of crashes and situations. However, they are basically icing. I consider the Avenue just as safe as the True Fit as long as both are installed correctly and used correctly every time.
The only real differences between the seats I listed are ease-of-use features, looks, and how long they will last your child. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Oh, and Sunshine Kids Juvenile Products (makers of the Radian seats and the Monterey booster) are the only ones who currently publish their crash data. Some people have been pushing Britax to do so as well but it is at this point unclear if they will ever agree to.
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You know so much about car seats, kq. How did that come to be? Thank you so much again for your expertise. The car seat market is daunting!
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I have done extensive research and reading and installed a lot of seats. Also, I have a very good memory for things I'm interested in.
I love sharing this info, I know it can be daunting, so since it's my passion to collect it, I might as well distribute it as widely as possible!
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I know it is helpful to have an extra for traveling in other people's cars (without having to uninstall and reinstall yours, since it can be very time consuming with some seats) or for bringing extra children in your car. I imagine it would also come in really handy if you're in an accident (that would require replacing your carseat).
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quote:Originally posted by ludosti: I know it is helpful to have an extra for traveling in other people's cars (without having to uninstall and reinstall yours, since it can be very time consuming with some seats) or for bringing extra children in your car. I imagine it would also come in really handy if you're in an accident (that would require replacing your carseat).
Exactly. Many of my "extra" seats are seats that my kids have outgrown and should probably be given away now.
However, my kids each have one "official" backup seat. See, we only have one car. If there is an emergency and I have to get a ride with someone somewhere, I have people I can call-- but I'd have to install carseats for my kids in their cars. Also, when a kid rides with Grandpa or Grandma or an aunt, I don't have to uninstall their seats, I can just install their backup in whoever is taking them's car. And we have been in the situation of having seats be in the car in a crash and having to replace them; until the seats are replaced we have to have other seats for the kids to use. The seats that are in our primary car are not to be found in brick-and-mortar stores, so it takes time for them to be ordered online, in which time we would be unable to go anywhere with the kids in the car if we did not have seats. But my primary thing is that we are vulnerable without a car at home. If heaven forbid we have to go to the hospital or something we need seats for the kids available. (For instance, during my last pregnancy my mom ended up taking me to L&D for monitoring and rehydration when I got sick during tax season. My husband was unable to immediately leave work, so I was glad I had seats to put in her car for my kids.)
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Ah. I'm a bit more of the mind that if we really need to go somewhere and the seats we already own aren't available, it's time to pretend it's 1953.
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That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.)
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I would like to pick your brain, too. I know now that with my first child, I moved her to the next level (rear to forward, harness to booster) too early. I based my decisions on the instruction manuals for the seats, not knowing that you're supposed to stay at each level until you have to move up.
So I want to do things better with the new one, and need to buy a new car seat anyway. I have a 1998 Buick Century, and don't intend to have to fit three kids across the back. The center seat has fold down armrests, which I think I remember reading means you can't put a car seat there. I don't do a whole lot of driving anymore, but there would definitely be at least a couple of times a year with multi-hour trips. I really like the seats with sliding harness adjusting thing; so much easier than rethreading! If the new one grows like my daughter, then I would expect to outgrow height before weight. I plan to buy the seat with tax return money, so although I don't plan to be extravagant, I don't need an ultra-cheap model, either. I'd also like to get a new booster seat for my four year old. She's been belt-only for about a year, should I put her back in harness?
Also, where should I go to get my installations checked out? I always follow the instruction manual and read it thoroughly, but it would be good to be sure. I've seen fire departments mentioned, but we're very rural and I don't know that the local VFDs would actually know anything about that.
Let me know if you need me to answer any more questions about what I want/need/have. Thanks!
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"That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.)"
Define "extremely." IMO, it would be mildly dangerous, sort of like walking beside a road, or eating the food at a pot luck.
So far, we haven't had to go anywhere so desperately when the car seats are elsewhere that we've actually done so...I don't think I'm taking that big of a risk.
Illegal, yes, but we do keep them strapped in under all normal circumstances.
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Except in, I think, one instance, you can put seats in a center seat with a fold-down armrest. Buic used to say you can't but now says you can and made that retroactive to all models. However those seats are often small and if you're putting 2 seats in it's probably easier not to use the center seat.
For a newborn, the Evenflo Triumph Advance fits them really, really well. I know someone who brought a preemie home from the NICU in one, they fit small babies that well! That would probably be a good choice for you.
You should definitely have your four year old in something (I'm reading "belt only" as "not in any kind of seat." Correct me if I'm wrong!) What kind of seatbelts does your car have, lap/shoulder or lap only? That affects your options.
A few questions on her:
-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
As for techs, what area are you in? I have a list somewhere of recommended techs, many of whom are willing to travel. If none are nearby I can check around for local resources for you. (You can e-mail me this info if you don't feel comfortable sharing it.)
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Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
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He is 40 inches tall, 16 inches bum to shoulder. This means that he has not gotten any taller in six months, but he is gearing up to do so. For the past week he has been saying, "Mommy, I am soooo huuuungry, when do we get to eat." All day long. Even five minutes after lunch. Even though he ate his lunch AND his friend's lunch. Sorry, I get frustrated with the constant begging for food.
We have a 97 Ford Taurus Wagon. We need to have room for three seats because we are trying to adopt a sibling group.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
But you have to consider the probabilities of a crash as well. Now, I'm not discounting that crashes do happen - we were in one six weeks ago, and our car is STILL not out of the garage. We were very lucky that we went with a larger sports car rather than the Mieta my husband wanted, since the Mieta would have crumpled around my legs to probably not good results.
But, still, that's only the second serious accident I've been in during my entire life. The chances of any particular car ride involving a car crash is extremely low. Because of that, I'm willing to give a pass on people who don't always follow exact safety rules every time, as long as they don't make a habit of it.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Except in, I think, one instance, you can put seats in a center seat with a fold-down armrest. Buic used to say you can't but now says you can and made that retroactive to all models. However those seats are often small and if you're putting 2 seats in it's probably easier not to use the center seat.
That's good to know! I don't know that we'll be having a third child, and if we do, I hope that we'll be able to afford something with more seating by then, but it's good that I could use that seat if I absolutely had to. The Century is a pretty wide car, so the middle seat is actually not too small.
quote:For a newborn, the Evenflo Triumph Advance fits them really, really well. I know someone who brought a preemie home from the NICU in one, they fit small babies that well! That would probably be a good choice for you.
I will look into that one!
quote:You should definitely have your four year old in something (I'm reading "belt only" as "not in any kind of seat." Correct me if I'm wrong!) What kind of seatbelts does your car have, lap/shoulder or lap only? That affects your options.
Oh, I meant a belt-only booster. In bed last night I suddenly realized that it probably sounded like she wasn't in a seat at all. My car has lap/shoulder belts for both of the side seats, and lap only in the middle. She sits on the side. Her old convertible car seat was high-backed, but last time we flew the baggage handlers broke off the hooks that the shoulder belt goes through, so I bought a new one. I didn't have a lot of money, so I got a low-backed one, but I think that was a mistake.
quote:A few questions on her:
-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
I'm not certain exactly how much she weighs, but it should be right around 40 lbs or a bit higher. She was 38 lbs in early summer. I guess I should get a scale.
Torso is 15-1/2" long.
She mostly sits quietly, but does wiggle some, I guess.
The belt is the reason why I want to get her a different seat. The low-back seat definitely does not position it as well as her previous seat, and it has a tendency to slide up to her neck. I know that's not good.
Her legs bend right at the edge of the booster seat.
quote:Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
I am becoming inclined to put her back into a harness seat. It's going to be tough to get one of her sets of grandparents on board with that. It was hard enough getting them to install the car seat correctly in their vehicle. No matter how many times I explained it, they couldn't grasp why locking seat belts were so important. They thought it was good enough that they would lock in a crash. Oh, well, I'll just have to put my foot down and say that they don't take her anywhere unless she's harnessed. She only rides in their vehicle a couple of times a year, anyway.
quote:As for techs, what area are you in? I have a list somewhere of recommended techs, many of whom are willing to travel. If none are nearby I can check around for local resources for you. (You can e-mail me this info if you don't feel comfortable sharing it.)
I'm in eastern Ohio, middle of the state. Wheeling, WV is about 25 minutes away, and Pittsburgh is about an hour.
Thank you so much for your help and advice. I should learn all of this for myself, but it really helps to just have a starting point so that it doesn't seem so overwhelming.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
And please remember also that I have a 7, almost 8 month old baby. She can't use a seatbelt, at all. She needs a seat. No seat for baby= baby goes flying.
But you have to consider the probabilities of a crash as well. Now, I'm not discounting that crashes do happen - we were in one six weeks ago, and our car is STILL not out of the garage. We were very lucky that we went with a larger sports car rather than the Mieta my husband wanted, since the Mieta would have crumpled around my legs to probably not good results.
But, still, that's only the second serious accident I've been in during my entire life. The chances of any particular car ride involving a car crash is extremely low. Because of that, I'm willing to give a pass on people who don't always follow exact safety rules every time, as long as they don't make a habit of it.
As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it. Not to mention that the ONE time you go out without following the safety rules may be ONE time too many.
If you think about it, it's actually pretty unlikely that you'll get pregnant if you have sex without protection. Once the egg is released, you have 12-24 hours to fertilize it and sperm typically lives 3-5 days so in the grand scheme of things, it's not that risky to have unprotected sex every once in a while as long as you don't make a habit of it.
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When moving my son's car seat (the Safety First 3 stage which you don't seem to like ) to another car one day, we lost the belt to latch it in using the latch system. I've heard different things about the latch system and all indications are that the seat is really just as safe being belted in (which is how we have it now since we lost the latch) but I'm not sure. What do you think about that one?
I will be needing to buy a new car seat soon for my 6-month-old soon. I've decided this time to go with a regular car seat that doesn't convert to a booster...but one that can go forward or backward. Booster seats just aren't that expensive, I noticed recently, so there's really no point in doing the 3-stage. If I can find one that's a reasonable price, I may replace my 3-year-old's at the same time. But I can't afford 2 $300 car seats.
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quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it. Not to mention that the ONE time you go out without following the safety rules may be ONE time too many.
If you think about it, it's actually pretty unlikely that you'll get pregnant if you have sex without protection. Once the egg is released, you have 12-24 hours to fertilize it and sperm typically lives 3-5 days so in the grand scheme of things, it's not that risky to have unprotected sex every once in a while as long as you don't make a habit of it.
Whoa. Remember, I think we're talking about the idea of not having spare car seats on hand, and similarly sized risks, not about tossing the kids in the trunk every once in a while just for kicks.
KQ described a situation where her extra safety precautions came in handy, but really, there were other options: 1. Call a cab, have grandma stay at home with the other kids. 2. Take grandma's car, have her stay home with the kids.
So you see, even in that situation I wouldn't say that there was an urgent need to go somewhere with the kids that necessitated having backup seats on hand.
I totally get that spare seats make various situations a LOT more convenient without sacrificing safety, and I totally support KQ in making that investment according to her preferences.
In my situation, though, I think the investment in spare car seats has a poor return. In the unlikely event that I really must take the kids somewhere and my car seats are unavailable, I'm willing to take my chances. I'm just not going to buy insurance against the particularly tiny risk that such a need will correspond with a random traffic accident.
I think Jhai was talking about that sort of mindset, not that casually ignoring safety precautions from time to time is OK.
(Although it's interesting that safety has become such a high priority compared to a few decades ago. The trend has to taper or terminate at some point, I imagine!)
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It didn't read that way to me, but I hope I was wrong. I agree that there are alternatives to having spare car seats on hand. I don't have any.
You also have to understand that I do know people who take these safety guidelines casually. I have an acquaintance who routinely lets her toddler ride up front with her buckled in with an adult seat belt. I have another who put her 3-year-old in a booster, missing the legal and safety guidelines on both age and weight. I know people who routinely let infants out of car seats because they're crying.
I don't know when safety limits go too far, but I don't think that current guidelines are over the top after looking into it. (And I did when my state changed the law to require all children under the age of 8 to be in a car seat or booster seat.)
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: It didn't read that way to me, but I hope I was wrong. I agree that there are alternatives to having spare car seats on hand. I don't have any.
You also have to understand that I do know people who take these safety guidelines casually. I have an acquaintance who routinely lets her toddler ride up front with her buckled in with an adult seat belt. I have another who put her 3-year-old in a booster, missing the legal and safety guidelines on both age and weight. I know people who routinely let infants out of car seats because they're crying.
I never said that you should take safety guidelines "casually", nor routinely do unsafe things. If this is your problem:
quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it.
then never do unsafe things. Personally, I don't have that problem - I'm just willing to truly consider the probabilities & act accordingly. I can do unsafe things on occasion and not "make a habit of it", like many rational adults.
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: If this is your problem:
quote:As soon as you let yourself start thinking this way, it becomes all too easy to make a habit of it.
then never do unsafe things. Personally, I don't have that problem - I'm just willing to truly consider the probabilities & act accordingly. I can do unsafe things on occasion and not "make a habit of it", like many rational adults.
Actually no, it's not my big problem. My big problem is the part of my post that you ignored...the part where the one time you disregard safety guidelines may be the wrong time.
And WHY disregard this safety guideline? What is so important that you would weigh the risk and decide it's worth it?
When I'm on the road, I see people disregarding safety guidelines all the time. Someone will be driving 20 miles per hour over the speed limit and cut us off. As my husband slams on the breaks to avoid an accident, I find myself asking, "What so important?"
The odds of getting into an accident on any given outing are low no matter what you do. Even if you go out driving drunk chances are that one time you'll get home ok. But what's so important?
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The one time you decide to step outside your house tomorrow may be the one time an eagle flying over drops the turtle it found on your head, killing you in the process (this actually happened to an ancient Greek philosopher, as best we can tell). Nevertheless, I don't sweat dying by turtle-induced head trauma, and neither should you - since the probability of it occurring is so low.
Everything in life is dangerous, safety guidelines or no. So all you can do is consider the probabilities of danger from any particular action, and the expected payoff (or payoff distribution or whathaveyou), and then decide whether something is worthwhile or not.
I'm not suggesting you bundle your kid off into a car sans car seat every time you're tired because it's easier that way. All I'm saying is that there are situations where it may be perfectly reasonable to let the child travel in less than ideal arrangements. You (general you) can't wrap children in cotton and protect them from everything, and the current social climate which is pushing that way has gotten way out of hand.
To give another example: I participate in a couple of relatively dangerous activities - rock climbing, skiing, and the like - just because I enjoy doing it. There's a risk there of injury or death, and given the frequency in which I participate, it's far higher than the risk from a child traveling a few miles sans car seat once a year. There's absolutely no reason for me to have these hobbies other than that I enjoy them. Nonetheless, I'm not going to stop doing them, and I wouldn't stop my kid from doing them either - in fact, I'll encourage future kids' participation in such activities, if they enjoy them.
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posted
I could not drive myself to the hospital, nor could I call a cab (no money for the cab, doctor instructed me not to drive myself.) In that situation my only other option would be "call an ambulance" and since it wasn't a true emergency I would have been paying on that still.
I'm going to answer other questions posed to me in individual posts now, with quotes. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by School4ever: He is 40 inches tall, 16 inches bum to shoulder. This means that he has not gotten any taller in six months, but he is gearing up to do so. For the past week he has been saying, "Mommy, I am soooo huuuungry, when do we get to eat." All day long. Even five minutes after lunch. Even though he ate his lunch AND his friend's lunch. Sorry, I get frustrated with the constant begging for food.
We have a 97 Ford Taurus Wagon. We need to have room for three seats because we are trying to adopt a sibling group.
Okay. For now, he needs to use that seat as a booster, or you need to buy him a new seat today.
Here are your harnessed seat options for a child with a 16 inch torso. I'm going to list them from cheapest to most expensive, with pros and cons to each. After age 2 most children average about 1 inch of torso growth per year, so take that into account when thinking how much longer they'll last him, but also remember that it's highly individual and that's just a guideline. You know best whether much of his growth seems to happen in his torso or legs, etc. There are a few other options, which I will discuss afterward.
1. Graco Nautilus, $150 (can be found cheaper some places.) Combination seat. Harnesses to 65 lbs., then becomes a high back, then low back booster (and a good one.) Top harness height is 18-18.5 inches (depends on installation.) Pros: becomes a booster after harness is outgrown, 6 year expiration on harness and back but 9 year expiration on low-back part, cheap but works well, easy to install. Cons: Some boys have trouble with the crotch strap not fitting well, and sitting on it is not allowed by this seat. Must be 100% on vehicle seat when installed. Width is 18 inches at base, so can be a problem installing with other seats (though there are ways around this.)
2. Sunshine Kids Radian 65, about $200 (give or take.) Convertible seat. Rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 65 lbs. (There is an 80 lb. model but I don't think you need the extra weight.) Harnesses to 17.5/18 inches (depending on install.) Pros: narrowest seat on the market, making it good for 3 across (13.5 inches at base, 17 inches at widest point); could be handed down/used for younger child as it is a convertible; folds for easy storage/carrying/travel; keeps child's center of gravity very low for added crash protection; 8 year rather than 6 year expiration; when rear-facing has ability to rear-facing tether (not an issue now but a consideration when using rear-facing for another child.) Cons: can be a tricky install, though I find with practice it gets easier; directions are not the best on some subjects; heavy, some parents complain of difficulty tightening straps, some children complain about dangling legs because of low seat (but they can solve this by crossing their legs, or you can put a sleeping bag or something else light in the car for them to prop their feet on.)
3. Britax Regent, $230-270. Forward-facing harnessed-only seat. Harnesses to 80 lbs. Top harness slots are 20 inches (highest on the market.) Pros: very comfortable seat for larger children, exceptionally easy to use and install per most parents. Cons: large, wider seat, can make 3 across hard; requires use of top tether after 50 lbs. (so you would have to get your car retrofitted if he still fit in the seat and hit this weight, though that is not a bad idea anyway for reasons I will explain below), not FAA approved (so if you travel by plane you'll have to either check it, which is not recommended, or have a backup plan when you get where you're going), requires use of recline bar so can leave little room in smaller cars between child's legs and front seat.
4. Recaro Como, $250. Convertible seat, rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 70. Top harness height is 19 inches. Pros: previously listed pros of convertibles for passing down, comfortable, removable head wings for protection/comfort, adjustable height headrest, I don't THINK this is an exceptionally wide seat but I've never seen one in person. Cons: notorious for narrow shoulder width, meaning many kids can't actually fit in the seat for the entire useful life of the harness height. If your child is built skinny this is less likely to be an issue. Rather heavy for a convertible. Head wings are described by many as "floppy" and by some as "almost useless."
5. Britax Frontier, $280-ish. Combination seat; forward-face harness to 80 lbs. (though your son won't get to 80 lbs. in any of these seats, trust me!) and a good high-back booster. Top harness height is about 18-18.5 inches (depends on installation.) Pros: very comfortable, Britax safety features such as headwings for side-impact protection, makes a good booster, 9 year expiration. Cons: again, rather wide, so not great for three across in many cars, some parents complain about twisty, cheap-seeming harness straps, there have been some quality control issues.
6. Recaro Signo, $290-ish. Convertible seat, rear-faces to 35 lbs., forward-faces to 70. Top harness height is 18 inches. Pros: cushy, comfy, quality seat, previous benefits of convertibles for passing down if desired in a few years, adjustable width and height head wings for side impact protection. Cons: while not as narrow as the Como in the shoulders, rather narrow interior for some kids. Also, it being slightly wider means less room in 3 across situations, though it's definitely not as wide as some of the other seats on this list.
7. SafeGuard Child Seat, $300-$400. Forward-facing only seat harnesses to 65 lbs. with a 19.5 inch top harness height (second highest on the market.) Pros: Very comfortable, infinite-adjust harness means no rethreading ever, everyone I know who has used it says they and their kid love it. Cons: Must be 100% on the seat of the vehicle when installed (a problem in some smaller cars), I've heard seatbelt install can be less than peachy (definite issue for you since you don't have LATCH), while not as wide as the Regent at 19 inches it's pretty wide, and, well, it's frickin' expensive.
I think that's it for harnessed seats that will work for your child's torso height. That said, you have two more options:
-The RideSafer Travel Vest. Available in 2 sizes, I think he would take a Small. It would require installation of a tether anchor but those are available (let me know if you want more info on how.) Provides no side-impact protection but is a good choice for three-across, and if you put him in the middle side-impact protection isn't as important. I don't know the cost and it can be hard to find.
-The EZ-On 86Y Universal Harness. This can be used from 40-186 lbs. and is ideal for use with a lap-only belt in the middle of the car. It basically converts a lap-only belt into a five-point harness. It is used in conjunction with a high-backed booster (any high-backed booster) for small children, to provide optimal protection and proper belt positioning. It is not ideal for use with a lap/shoulder belt because you would have to use a locking clip and can be a bit more difficult because of that, but it is possible. This might be a good solution if you wanted something for after a seat was outgrown. It costs about $70 and comes with a heavy-duty tether anchor and instructions for installing (this must be used after 80 lbs.; until 80 lbs. this harness can be used with either the included heavy-duty anchor or a factory-installed tether anchor.)
About tether anchors: although not all seats REQUIRE their use, it is strongly recommended to improve the performance of the seat (any forward-facing seat) by reducing head excursion. I strongly suggest you get a tether anchor (or two) installed in your car. I can assist you in finding out how to do this if you so desire.
Let me know if you have any questions or want help finding deals on a seat. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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-How much does she weigh? -How long is her torso, measured as above? -Does she wiggle around a lot or is she sitting well in her seat? -Where does the belt hit her? -Where do her legs bend?
I'm not certain exactly how much she weighs, but it should be right around 40 lbs or a bit higher. She was 38 lbs in early summer. I guess I should get a scale.
Torso is 15-1/2" long.
She mostly sits quietly, but does wiggle some, I guess.
The belt is the reason why I want to get her a different seat. The low-back seat definitely does not position it as well as her previous seat, and it has a tendency to slide up to her neck. I know that's not good.
Her legs bend right at the edge of the booster seat.
quote:Personally, I do not feel comfortable letting any of my kids out of a harness before 6, because of what I know about development of the hip bones and their ability to distribute forces. But, it's a parental decision. If you feel she sits well in a booster and she has a high-back booster with a lap-shoulder belt that fits her appropriately, that is an appropriate choice for many four year olds.
I am becoming inclined to put her back into a harness seat. It's going to be tough to get one of her sets of grandparents on board with that. It was hard enough getting them to install the car seat correctly in their vehicle. No matter how many times I explained it, they couldn't grasp why locking seat belts were so important. They thought it was good enough that they would lock in a crash. Oh, well, I'll just have to put my foot down and say that they don't take her anywhere unless she's harnessed. She only rides in their vehicle a couple of times a year, anyway.
Okay. I agree with you that she needs either a harnessed seat or a high-back booster. The seats listed above would be appropriate for her as well.
I think one good option for you might be to get the Graco Nautilus or Britax Frontier. They both convert to a booster, so she could use them in a grandparent's car as a booster (something I'm comfortable suggesting if she sits pretty well, just make sure they know the importance of her using it properly and sitting positioned correctly.) Of course you could install it for them and teach her how to buckle herself; I hear the Graco Nautilus is very easy for kids to learn how to use the harness themselves.
The other option would be to buy a harnessed seat for home and have them get a high-backed booster for a backup for her.
In the mean time, most low-backed boosters come with a belt guide. I know the Graco TurboBooster low-back does, if that's the one you happen to have. (Hopefully it is not lost. If you do have the TurboBooster, btw, make sure the screws are in the armrest. That's something most parents aren't aware needs to be done before use.) That will help some, though a high-back is still better because of the additional containment and protection it provides, and a harness is even better. I'm looking for techs, I'll get back to you on that.
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quote:When moving my son's car seat (the Safety First 3 stage which you don't seem to like ) to another car one day, we lost the belt to latch it in using the latch system. I've heard different things about the latch system and all indications are that the seat is really just as safe being belted in (which is how we have it now since we lost the latch) but I'm not sure. What do you think about that one?
I will be needing to buy a new car seat soon for my 6-month-old soon. I've decided this time to go with a regular car seat that doesn't convert to a booster...but one that can go forward or backward. Booster seats just aren't that expensive, I noticed recently, so there's really no point in doing the 3-stage. If I can find one that's a reasonable price, I may replace my 3-year-old's at the same time. But I can't afford 2 $300 car seats.
Sorry, missed this earlier!
The lower LATCH anchors are a convenience/ease of use feature. In some cars you will actually get a better install with the seatbelt, in some with the LATCH belts. In either case, after a certain weight you can't use the lower LATCH anchors anyway (varies by brand of car and carseat.) If you have a good install with the seatbelt don't worry about it. Standard advice is "use whichever one gives a better install; if both are equal, use whichever one you prefer to work with." If you really want to be able to use LATCH, you can call or e-mail the manufacturer (they're made by Dorel) and get a replacement LATCH belt.
The top tether is another matter. In cars that have top tether anchors (or can be retrofitted with them), ALL forward-facing seats, whether installed with LATCH or seatbelt, should be tethered. This helps reduce head excursion (how far the child's head travels forward in a crash) and can reduce the risk of spinal and head injuries as a result. Some cars state that there is a weight limit on this top tether as well; however research has been done that shows that tether anchors are unlikely to break or fail even with excessive forces unlikely to be seen in a survivable crash (they either hold or deform; in either case, they do their job.) Many techs I know would advise that you can make a parental decision to choose to use the tether after the vehicle manufacturer's limit because the benefit of doing so outweighs the risk. And some manufacturers do not state a limit or the limit is 80 lbs. (the top restraint weight limit anyway.) I will personally always tether seats even if the manufacturer states a limit lower than the child's weight (I think of those that place a limit, one or two state 50 lbs. as a limit, the others state 80.) However, this is not an issue for you yet if you have your child rear-facing. But it's something to consider for the future.
About the 3-in-1 seats-- they're fine as a convertible seat. They make a cruddy booster for most kids, though. Also, in all the old models, the weight limit is 40 lbs. and the top adjustment slot CAN NOT be used with the harness (it's only a booster setting.) It is not reinforced and can fail in a crash. So that makes it outgrown almost always before a child hits the weight limit. The NEW Alpha Omega Elites (released this Aug./Sept.; currently only available at Babies R Us) harness to 50 lbs. and have usable top slots. (But you have to look to make sure they have the 50 lb. weight limit, many still on the market still have the old rules.) So they're okay if you disregard the booster function and just consider them as a convertible seat. However, they're more expensive than the Evenflo Triumph Advance-- which does the same thing. Their only advantage over the Evenflo Triumph Advance is that they are narrower. So that might make it a better choice for a three-across situation. But other than that, meh. I do like the way the harness adjusts, though. No rethreading means less risk of twisting (though I just untwisted a friend's straps, I do NOT know how they got so twisted!)
Anyway, off that and onto what I would buy in your case: I would probably buy a Safety 1st Avenue (or if you really like the no-rethread harness, the Evenflo Triumph Advance) for the baby and a Graco Nautilus for the 3 year old. The total cost of an Avenue and a Nautilus would be about $230; then you could pass down the Nautilus to the baby when the Avenue is outgrown, and put the older one in a dedicated booster seat. (The cost with a Triumph Advance and Nautilus would be about $285.) But that's just my personal preference, you can of course choose any seats that fit your kids. You could also pass down that 3-in-1 to the baby (or if it's the baby's, just let baby keep using it) as long as it's not expired, and buy a Nautilus for the 3 year old, and then, same deal, when baby outgrows the seat move to the Nautilus and older child to a booster. Any of those seats should allow your child at least 3 years, if not more, giving the three year old time to be harnessed to at least age 6 (unless harness is outgrown by then) which I really consider quite a safe harness age for all but the most wiggly children. They're old enough to understand the rules of how they must sit in a booster, and their hip bones are large and developed enough to handle the added strain from a 3-point rather than 5-point restraint. At that point I'm comfortable with putting them in charge of their safety in the car (which is basically what you do when you put a child in a booster-- when you have them in a harness, you are responsible for how they are restrained, but when you move to a booster, you're putting the child in charge of his own positioning, and trusting that he can stay in place enough for the seatbelt to do its job in a crash.)
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Okay. I agree with you that she needs either a harnessed seat or a high-back booster. The seats listed above would be appropriate for her as well.
I think one good option for you might be to get the Graco Nautilus or Britax Frontier. They both convert to a booster, so she could use them in a grandparent's car as a booster (something I'm comfortable suggesting if she sits pretty well, just make sure they know the importance of her using it properly and sitting positioned correctly.) Of course you could install it for them and teach her how to buckle herself; I hear the Graco Nautilus is very easy for kids to learn how to use the harness themselves.
The other option would be to buy a harnessed seat for home and have them get a high-backed booster for a backup for her.
In the mean time, most low-backed boosters come with a belt guide. I know the Graco TurboBooster low-back does, if that's the one you happen to have. (Hopefully it is not lost. If you do have the TurboBooster, btw, make sure the screws are in the armrest. That's something most parents aren't aware needs to be done before use.) That will help some, though a high-back is still better because of the additional containment and protection it provides, and a harness is even better. I'm looking for techs, I'll get back to you on that.
I don't have the TurboBooster, I have the Cosco Ambassador, which, as I said, I don't like, at least for her size. There's a comment on that page of someone using it with her 25 month old. *shudder*
Her grandparents already have a convertible car seat/high backed booster that they got for her a few years ago. I doubt I can get them to put the harness back in, but since she rides with them so infrequently, I guess that's ok.
The booster seats that you mentioned, can they be put into airplane seats? I will never check a car seat again after what happened to my old one.
posted
All the seats listed are FAA approved except the Britax Regent. However some of them may not fit on some smaller airplanes' seats, or older planes with armrests that don't fold up. Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
I would check the fit on anything they're using for her before you let her ride in it. It sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it. A high backed booster is outgrown the same way as a convertible harnessed seat, kind of-- when the tops of her ears go above the back of the booster's tallest setting (or in some cases, the seat back), or the shoulder guides are below her shoulders and unable to properly position the belt.
Bummer, the Ambassador does not come with a belt guide AFAIK.
I'll look into the tech thing further for you. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I want to reiterate that using a harness outgrown by height is extremely dangerous . . . .
That would not only be extremely dangerous, but illegal in my state (don't know about yours, but if your kids were my kids' age, probably would be.) . . . .
Extremely: likely to cause extreme harm in a crash. Google "seatbelt syndrome pics" if you want graphic information on that.
KQ, While i greatly appreciate your enthusiasm for protecting your children I think you've blown this way way out of perspective. Taking your child in the car even properly restrained is dangerous. By your definition "likely to cause extreme harm in a crash", taking your child anywhere in a car even if they are in a proper child seat is extremely dangerous.
I come from a generation where there were no child safety seats. We rolled around in the back of the station wagon, jumped around while the car was moving, climbed back and forth over the seats and did all kinds of things that would be considered reckless by today's standards. The point is that better than 99.9% of us not only survived but never suffered a serious injury in an automobile.
Were we lucky? That depends on how you define luck. We didn't beat the odds. Certainly there were those who were unlucky and were killed or seriously injured in automobile accidents. Certainly parents should take reasonable efforts to reduce that risk.
I think what it comes down to is what constitutes "reasonable" efforts?
Consider that according to safety studies, properly used child safety seats increase your child's chances of surviving a serious accident by 71%. That's significant but you need to put that in context. That means that taking your child in a car unrestrained is about 3.5 times more dangerous than taking them in a car in a properly used car seat.
Assuming that the risk is proportional to the number of miles you drive, a parent who makes 10 five miles trips per week with children in properly used safety seats is engaging in more dangerous behavior than the parent who makes 1 five mile trip per week with unrestrained children. Do you consider people who drive with their children in car seats 3 to 4 times as much as you do to be doing something "extremely dangerous". Can you imagine circumstances under which you would be willing to drive 3 to 4 times as much as you do now?
You have 3 back up child seats for your children. If those seats cost you $150 each, you've spent $450 dollars. You mentioned a case in which you needed those seats when your mother had to take you to the hospital. By your definition, it was "extremely dangerous" for you to take your children to the hospital with you. It would have been much safer to have your mother stay home with the children and take a cab to the hospital. If you hadn't spent the $450 on backup child seats -- you could have spent a small portion of it on a cab and kept your children safer.
Now I'm not suggesting you were reckless in taking your children to the hospital with you or even that you should spend your money on cabs and baby sitters instead of child seats. I am just trying to put the risk in perspective. Nothing in life is without risk and we all make choices about what risks are worth it. But to make those decisions rationally, we need to clearly understand how great those risks really are so that we can weight the costs and benefits reasonably. When you chose to spend money on backup child seats, you chose not to spend that money on anything else including things like taking a cab to the hospital so that you could leave your children safely at home.
I am sure that you can imagine a situation, say someone shooting at you, in which you'd be willing to risk putting your child in a car without properly buckling them in. The question is where you draw the line.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
Would you mind telling me those options? I plan to fly to visit my dad in a few months, so it could be an issue. It will be from Pennsylvania to Utah, so the plane will probably be a big one, but you never know.
quote:t sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it.
Hmm. I know she should sit still and not mess with the seat belt (things she's already pretty good with), but is there anything else?
posted
The Rabbit: Most of those seats are not actual back up seats, most did not cost that much, and according to at least 2 studies, 3 in 4 car seats (or thereabouts) are used incorrectly, and many, many children are injured or killed because they are improperly restrained in a crash every year. Most crashes that happen are at relatively low speeds and children can be injured or killed even in a "minor" crash. To me, that says that it is very important to 1) have children in a seat appropriate to their age every time they are in a car, barring an emergency, and to use the seat according to manufacturer's instructions. Many states have laws that reflect this same desire, at least for very young children. I've already admitted that I love carseats and am a little geeky about it. I don't expect anyone else to have as many carseats as I do. I do expect others to at the very least follow the law in regards to properly restraining their child, and hopefully follow best practice.
I really didn't want this to become a debate since this is a thread entitled "questions" and I am hopeful that it will remain a thread where people can ask for advice and get their questions answered. Maybe we can start a new thread if we're going to debate? Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Before you fly you can check what plane you will be on and find out the dimensions of the seats, which will help you determine that. If a seat won't fit, there are options that I will be happy to enumerate for anyone who's ever in that position.
Would you mind telling me those options? I plan to fly to visit my dad in a few months, so it could be an issue. It will be from Pennsylvania to Utah, so the plane will probably be a big one, but you never know.
quote:t sounds like you'll have to teach her how to be safe in their car since they're not very conscious of it.
Hmm. I know she should sit still and not mess with the seat belt (things she's already pretty good with), but is there anything else?
--Mel
There are a few options and it really depends mostly on whether you're going to have a seat where you're going that you trust.
Since you're going to see your dad, will he have a booster for her? If so, and he's picking you up, he can bring it to the airport. That's the easiest one.
The second option (if he doesn't have one, or you don't know if his will fit her) is to use a booster while you're there, and to pack it with you on the plane (since a low back without a guide doesn't fit her well, you're talking either a low-back with a guide, or a high-back booster that comes apart or folds compactly to be stowed in the overhead compartments-- such as the Graco TurboBooster high back version or the Compass Folding Booster.) The Nautilus also gives you this option if you disassemble it (but you'll have to be familiar with how to disassemble and assemble it before you go; I'd recommend practicing so you can do it quickly.)
Another option, since you'd be prepared ahead of time, is to ship the carseat to your destination overnight (this obviously only works if you'll not be needing the carseat in the mean time.)
And, lastly, you can, being prepared, have a box and packing materials to fit the carseat and pack it to be checked. As you have learned, gate-checking the seat or checking it unboxed does not always result in the seat showing up in perfect condition. But, if you are prepared with packing materials, you can check it with reasonable confidence that being well packed, it will be protected.
If you want her to use a harness on the plane (for non-wiggling purposes as well as crash protection) and do not bring a harnessed seat/harnessed seat won't fit, an option is to buy or rent a CARES harness. They're expensive and I wouldn't buy one myself-- but often on Craigslist or eBay people will rent them out (at least so I've heard) and that is a much more affordable option.
To put your mind at ease, though, most of those seats have been used on most modern airplanes by aquaintances with no problems fitting. The Radian will fit on any plane out there; they were practically designed for it.
If you have trouble installing a harnessed seat on a plane because of how the buckle falls, you can ask for a seatbelt extender. They are like the thing the stewardess uses to demonstrate seatbelt function, and they buckle into the regular seatbelt and you adjust as needed, which lets you get buckles fully into or fully out of the beltpath or whatever else is the problem.
As for her being safe, yes, she needs to learn how to sit still and she also needs to know where the belt needs to go on her and how tight it needs to be. If she learns how a belt is supposed to sit she can tell them when it's not sitting right. If you have her in a harness and use it while she's with them, she should learn that the straps must not be twisted and how tight the harness should be. Many four year olds can buckle themselves in many seats, so that's something she can learn how to do too if necessary.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I did the first option last time, but my dad has the same booster seat that I now have. It seemed to fit her much better in his vehicle, with his seatbelts, but I don't really trust my memory on this.
I was leaning towards the Nautilus anyway, but knowing that it can come apart and be folded makes me pretty certain that's the one I'll get. My daughter has sat very well on the plane every time we've flown, so I'm not particularly concerned about having her in a harness. I just want to keep the seat safe from the baggage handlers, and that should be no problem since it comes apart and folds.
My husband witnessed a rollover accident today (thankfully the woman was not badly hurt), so he's suddenly very on board with the idea of putting our daughter back in a harness. He was a little bit skeptical before. So I plan to order her new seat this weekend.
posted
It doesn't actually fold, but what it does do is come apart. You'd have to take the harness out and then take the back off, but with that done it should fit in an overhead bin. So the best thing to do would be to plan to use it on the plane-- but practice disassembling and reassembling it before the trip so you'd know you could break it down to go in the bins if you had to.
I will e-mail you about the pricing. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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