quote:Originally posted by Noemon: But the early followers of Jesus were Jews, and they viewed their faith as Jewish. What became Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
I have always wondered how many of them actually were Jewish. The New Testament is the only historical source I am aware of. Do 10 - 50 people trying to convert gentiles constitute a Jewish movement?
The original members were all Jewish, the founding documents are permeated with references to Jewish scriptures, and one of the first major internal disagreement was whether or not new followers who were not Jewish had to convert to Judaism. I think it's fair to say Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: Oh, and there have also been several Jews who have been considered to be the messiah by large numbers of their contemporaries. My guess is they had more contemporary Jewish followers than Jesus.
Right. And for the Jews who decided to follow them*, the question of whether they were a messiah was an important one.
*Athronges, Theudes and many others.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: But the early followers of Jesus were Jews, and they viewed their faith as Jewish. What became Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
I have always wondered how many of them actually were Jewish. The New Testament is the only historical source I am aware of. Do 10 - 50 people trying to convert gentiles constitute a Jewish movement?
The original members were all Jewish, the founding documents are permeated with references to Jewish scriptures, and one of the first major internal disagreement was whether or not new followers who were not Jewish had to convert to Judaism. I think it's fair to say Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
Out of sheer curiosity, is there historical evidence other than the New Testament, and a brief questionable mention by Josephus, that it started with Jews and not Romans?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Romans pretending to be Jews?
Sort of. I teach my students that Christianity took off in Rome where it spread throughout Europe. I also teach them that the first followers were indeed Jews. Is there any historical evidence of the crossover? As a non-Christian how do I know that Christianity did not start in Rome and not in the Holy Land?
It seems odd to me that many major religions flourished where they started, except Christianity. Even Buddhism, while more popular in China, has deep roots in India where it began.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: But the early followers of Jesus were Jews, and they viewed their faith as Jewish. What became Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
I have always wondered how many of them actually were Jewish. The New Testament is the only historical source I am aware of. Do 10 - 50 people trying to convert gentiles constitute a Jewish movement?
The original members were all Jewish, the founding documents are permeated with references to Jewish scriptures, and one of the first major internal disagreement was whether or not new followers who were not Jewish had to convert to Judaism. I think it's fair to say Christianity was originally a Jewish movement.
So I'm curious then. I have asked several Christians why they are not Torah observant (for example, keeping kosher). I get an answer that roughly translates to, "Jesus came and said that the old ways (such as kosher eating) are no longer relevant. He gave a new set of laws." It seems that is this is true, then I would think that it would be difficult to call Christianity a Jewish movement. As diverse as the other movements were, none preached abandoning Torah observance. Additionally, without promising observance, people would not be able to convert to Judaism.
So it seems that the early Christians must have been Torah observant, and then changed their minds. I'm curious about how this happened (if it did). Were they aware that they were now no longer a Jewish movement? Or am I wrong and they were never Torah observant?
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There was considerable controversy in the early Church as to whether non-Jews who wanted to be Christians should be allowed at all or if they must be convert to Judaism or be circumcised and obey dietary laws. Paul was all for bringing in Gentiles; Peter, not so much. Eventually Paul won that argument.
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So Christianity stopped being a Jewish movement essentially within the first generation of its establishment? By the time Paul died, there were people who were Christians who were not Torah observant?
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The problem is that most Christians (who think about it) view Christianity as an extension or the logical conclusion (help me here DKW, I don't feel like I'm finding the right word) of Judaism: the fulfilled promises of Jewish prophecy. To practicing Jews it is viewed it as a distortion or downright perversion of Judaism. If it is viewed as having any link beyond location. The answer to the question "is it a Jewish movement?" will depend highly on your beliefs.
[EDIT: Even "extension" might be too dramatic a word for a Christian view on this. Christians belief in a second coming of Christ. When that happens it wont be a change to their religion as we might think of the "change" to Judaism when Christ came, merely an event that was prophesied previously. However, because different Christian religions belief differently about the 2nd coming, one could imagine, depending on what one thinks will happen then (the 2nd coming is pretty dramatic, so I guess we have to imagine it a little more gentle and less obvious than the 1st or it becomes too incredulous), that there will be drastic changes and some who don't go along with it. It's not as if Christianity becomes something else, but it's point in time when a significant dividing happened. All this then of course contrasts the second part of what I said which is that Christianity doesn't represent fulfillment of prophecy to practicing Jews, but the alteration or even denial of it. Just as the coming of modern day religious figures didn't impress all the Catholics in their day!]
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The way I learned about the origins of Christianity was that in the beginning things were very much the same.
Many Jews were taken in by Christianity. People lived on as normal, just a large portion of the population felt that the messiah had come, while the rest of the population felt it had not.
From what I was taught, this version of Christianity was not only similar enough to Judaism that it was threatening, it was extremely tempting at the time, considering that the destruction of the temple soon followed and the deeply painful exile.
It was only after Saul of Tarsis - Paul, who changed the laws of Christianity (not Jesus) so as to make it more similar to pagan beliefs and to attract more non-Jewish followers.
At the same time, Christianity became less threatening to Jews who would not leave Judaism for a religion that was so different.
This was back in a time when Jesus was not yet revered as divine, and the laws were not different. Eventually, as Christian belief evolved and was concretized, people look back and superimpose stuff that was decided only later on that first generation.
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Was Paul alive at the same time as Jesus? If so, all this happened over a period of what, 20 years?
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: The problem is that most Christians (who think about it) view Christianity as an extension or the logical conclusion (help me here DKW, I don't feel like I'm finding the right word) of Judaism: the fulfilled promises of Jewish prophecy. To practicing Jews it is viewed it as a distortion or downright perversion of Judaism. If it is viewed as having any link beyond location. The asnwer to the question "is it a Jewish movement?" will depend highly on your beleifs.
Hobbes
Right. I differ from those (and probably most) Christians in that I am not particularly invested in Jewish prophecy. I can understand why Jewish people are, but I am not Jewish. I think that Christ was considerably more than a fulfillment of those prophecies.
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quote:Was Paul alive at the same time as Jesus? If so, all this happened over a period of what, 20 years?
Yes, but they didn't meet during Christ's mortal ministry. Or at the very least there aren't any records of it (which I think would come up, but draw your own concluesions).
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Was Paul alive at the same time as Jesus? If so, all this happened over a period of what, 20 years?
They were alive at the same time but did not meet when Jesus was alive. Paul became a follower of Jesus after Jesus died. In fact, Paul, before he became a follower of Christ, was pretty fiercely against the Christian movement.
So about 30 - 35 years as Paul died about 64-67.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: So I'm curious then. I have asked several Christians why they are not Torah observant (for example, keeping kosher). I get an answer that roughly translates to, "Jesus came and said that the old ways (such as kosher eating) are no longer relevant. He gave a new set of laws." It seems that is this is true, then I would think that it would be difficult to call Christianity a Jewish movement. As diverse as the other movements were, none preached abandoning Torah observance. Additionally, without promising observance, people would not be able to convert to Judaism.
For me, the short answer is that I don't follow Torah because I'm not Jewish. My heritage, as far as anyone would ever be able to tell, is Gentile. The covenant God made at Sinai with the Jews isn't my covenant, but when Jesus came he made a new covenant which extended certain blessings to Gentiles.
I don't believe that his new covenant invalidated the old one. Reading debates here has helped convince me that that covenant is for all time, period. I don't think the Jews who followed Jesus magically stopped being Jewish, even if some apparently got confused and tried. Paul was emphatic that those who were circumcised not try to get uncircumcised (I don't even what to think of what that would have involved).
Being Catholic, I obviously don't have a problem with Jesus being the messiah, but I'd be distressed if a Jew who thought he was, too, gave up keeping Torah. My church back home is facing this dilemma this Easter - an older Jewish gentleman joined the RCIA* program last fall. Last I heard, they weren't sure if they were going to baptise him or not, because the heads of the program don't believe he should have to stop being Jewish and neither does he, despite his messianic beliefs. That was of Christmas, and I don't know what they eventually decided.
I know how Jewish Hatrackers are appalled at conversion like that, but leaving the man's personal choice to him, I'm interested in you'll's opinion on how the church should be handling the situation.
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Interesting question. Sad question from our perspective, but interesting. If the man believes Jesus is the Messiah, and not divine, then he should continue to live his life as a Jew.
Jews do not worship their messiah. He is simply an instrument of God.
If he believes in the divinity of Jesus, and in the Gospels, Christian law, etc. It is too much of a contradiction with Judaism for him to continue practicing Judaism and to be a Christian as well.
It's really tricky. How is he supposed to keep Jewish laws while being a Christian? Will he go to church? Participate in ceremonies? Jews are not allowed to create incense for ritual purposes anywhere outside the temple - does being a Jewish Christian mean that restriction no longer applies?
Jews don't create any imagery because we believe it is idolatry. Can a Jewish Christian worship in a place full of idols (sculptures and images)?
What about all the Jewish laws that require participation with other Jews? Attending prayer services with a quorum? I dunno it blows my mind.
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I know how Jewish Hatrackers are appalled at conversion like that, but leaving the man's personal choice to him, I'm interested in you'll's opinion on how the church should be handling the situation.
Speaking for myself, I wouldn't go near that one. Seems to me that it's essentially asking non-Christians how a Christian organization ought to be practicing its own religion. I'll leave that to its practitioners.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Interesting question. Sad question from our perspective, but interesting. If the man believes Jesus is the Messiah, and not divine, then he should continue to live his life as a Jew.
Jews do not worship their messiah. He is simply an instrument of God.
If he believes in the divinity of Jesus, and in the Gospels, Christian law, etc. It is too much of a contradiction with Judaism for him to continue practicing Judaism and to be a Christian as well.
It's really tricky. How is he supposed to keep Jewish laws while being a Christian? Will he go to church? Participate in ceremonies? Jews are not allowed to create incense for ritual purposes anywhere outside the temple - does being a Jewish Christian mean that restriction no longer applies?
Jews don't create any imagery because we believe it is idolatry. Can a Jewish Christian worship in a place full of idols (sculptures and images)?
What about all the Jewish laws that require participation with other Jews? Attending prayer services with a quorum? I dunno it blows my mind.
I think those issues are why they were thinking of not baptising him. The head of the program and the priest were talking with a local Reform synagogue, where his beliefs might cause less of a disturbance to others. If he's not baptised, he can't participate in any Catholic rituals. He could attend masses, but not read or take the Eucharist (this particular church uses incense once or twice a year, if that, so it could be avoided). Since he's been at a Catholic initiation course, I imagine he might believe Jesus is/was divine - I don't know for sure. Images are pretty hard to avoid, though.
It's really been blowing everyone's mind, to be honest. I think they're trying to do the best they can and hope God is merciful at the end of the day. Whatever happens, I'm proud of my church for not taking the easy route and just baptising him willy-nilly.
Thanks for the input, Armoth.
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kmbboots, Paul was probably studying in Alexandria, Egypt, during Christ's ministry. He was not back in Judea until a year or so after the Crucifixion. We know he was there to hold the outer garments of the people who took Stephen out to stone him, in 34 A.D.
I think it was not Paul, or at least not just Paul, who was responsible for Christianity to become more Gentile-centered than Jewish-centered. For the first few decades, the church was dominated by the Christian Jewish elders in Jerusalem. As the church expanded to include more and more Gentiles, the Hebrew-centered church would begin to change. But it was not until the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when the Jewish Christians were scattered, that to a large extent the dominant influence of the Jewish Christians was ended or great diminished.
Also, by 100 A.D. and the time of the Emperor Hadrian, the inclusive tolerance of all religions the Romans professed to believe in changed to become very anti-Jewish (after fighting so many wars to put down Jewish insurrections), to the extent that Judaism was actually banned. This is when, according to the research of Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, some Christians resorted to assembling on the Sabbath only secretly, and assembling publically on Sunday, to distance themselves from the Jews, so they wouldn't look so much like a Jewish offshoot.
In the process of centuries, church leaders in Rome, working hand-in-hand with Roman authorities (notably the Emperor Constantine), decided it would be best if Christians made their chief meeting day be on Sunday, the same as pagan religions. For centuries, Christians still kept the original seventh-day Sabbath and also the new Sunday. But church authorities cleverly decreed that Sabbath should be a day of fasting, and Sunday a day of feasting. After a few generations of this, most people (except those most familiar with Scripture--this was a time when only 5% of the population could read) dropped Sabbath and came to regard Sunday as the day to venerate.
Knowing this history, I for one refuse ever to fast on the Sabbath.
Eventually the church leadership was given secular power when the Emperor moved his throne to Constantinople, and secular penalties were imposed on any Christians who "Judaized" by keeping the "Jewish" Sabbath, and on any who refused to acknowledge the supreme authority of the Church's first Bishop (later called the Pope), and on any who failed to embrace all the newly instituted festivals and observances of the church (thinly disguised from similar pagan festivals and observances).
There were a few thousands who refused to compromise, and were driven by persecution from the church to flee to the high, wilderness valleys of the Piedmont mountains. Their community survived and later became known as the Waldenses and Albigenses. Their descendents exist to this day.
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Strictly from the Jewish perspective regarding the individual, though...
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Interesting question. Sad question from our perspective, but interesting. If the man believes Jesus is the Messiah, and not divine, then he should continue to live his life as a Jew.
You seem to be suggesting that accepting a non-divine Jesus as the Messiah is consistent with Judaism, and that the deal-breaker comes only when he's suggested to be God. To say that this is questionable to an astronomical degree would be a bit of an understatement.
quote:It's really tricky. How is he supposed to keep Jewish laws while being a Christian? Will he go to church? Participate in ceremonies? Jews are not allowed to create incense for ritual purposes anywhere outside the temple - does being a Jewish Christian mean that restriction no longer applies?
Of course not. (Would that one really come up, though?)
quote:Jews don't create any imagery because we believe it is idolatry. Can a Jewish Christian worship in a place full of idols (sculptures and images)?
Again, of course not.
quote:What about all the Jewish laws that require participation with other Jews? Attending prayer services with a quorum? I dunno it blows my mind.
Not seeing what's mind-blowing here... what Jewish grounds would there be for disregarding any of the laws?
Edited to sum up: as far as the individual goes, it is impossible to live as a religious Jew and a Christian simultaneously. There isn't any compromise arrangement that won't require redefining one religion or the other... and most likely both. Whether there's an arrangement that works better for the church than others, I can't presume to say.
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Shmuel...my questions were posed rhetorically. I'm with you through and through. Even with the Jesus not being divine thing.
My response was posed for Christians who lack the thorough understanding of Judaism that I'm sure you possess.
Chas v'shalom, I'd never consider entertaining a moment of trying to synthesize Judaism and Christianity, even with a non-divine Jesus.
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Mucus, I have mentioned before that the Elves in Tolkien's Lord of the Ring seem vaguely Jewish to me. I have also said that I think the Hobbits remind me of Canadians, but I do not wish to make a big issue of that, living as I do so close to Windsor, Ontario.
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As for scholarship, review of all the posts here will show that I have presented more scholarly arguments, including some cited from authorities, than anyone.
Furthermore, I am the one who has taken to task the sloppy scholarship shown by others, detailing precisely where their reasoning and claimed evidence is invalid.
The fact is that I do know what I am talking about; perhaps this is what gives me the confidence that some mistakenly deride as arrogance. I do not allow anyone to browbeat me, no matter how many try to gang up on me. It is not arrogance that enables me to do this.
Not to be defensive, but reference to the posts in this thread will also show, I believe, that I am the least likely person to resort to name-calling or expressions of ridicule. I confine my efforts to logically valid, scholarly arguments. I do make an effort to explain the arguments of scholars in plain language that clearly communicate to non-theologians. Still, I find myself being misunderstood frequently, and having to attempt to correct those misunderstandings that matter. That seems to go with the territory.
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Ron you remind me of my father. My dad is really smart. So smart that he is often out of the league of his friends and family. He has a very lonely view of the world, where he feels that only he is correct and that no one will ever understand all the wisdom that he possesses.
However, my father did bequeath his intelligence to his 3 male children. My brothers and I have a very difficult time speaking to him because he has already convinced himself that no one will ever understand the world as he does. Yet when we offer intelligent arguments, his walls are already up - he will not acknowledge the arguments, he simply throws up his arms and talks about the woes of being too smart for his own good.
On top of that, he is so incredibly condescending and self absorbed that it makes talking to him extremely difficult. Add to that that my three brothers and I think he is often wrong. It makes it tough to carry out a conversation.
I think that most of the things you claim to have shown in your last post, you did not actually show. Your confidence is not mistakenly taken as arrogance. You make your arguments without couching them in the best vehicle to be received by the person you are speaking with.
It is almost like you are arguing for the sake of defending your own beliefs to yourself. You do not think about what would make Lisa, or myself actually consider your views.
Sound scholarship (which I'm not convinced you have) is only one component of an argument. Speaking respectfully, with an understanding that the person you are speaking to grew up with different beliefs and thought patterns, with sensitivity and understanding, is another component.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Mucus, I have mentioned before that the Elves in Tolkien's Lord of the Ring seem vaguely Jewish to me. I have also said that I think the Hobbits remind me of Canadians, but I do not wish to make a big issue of that, living as I do so close to Windsor, Ontario.
Hobbits remind you of Canadians? In Windsor?
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I would say that the Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah should go get more Jewish education. I know that sounds snarky, but it is so at odds with Jewish thought and beliefs that he clearly does not have a very deep understanding. Perhaps the additional education will clarify things for him. One has to make a decision, it's not possible to rational straddle the fence here. I have seen people try ("Oh, we're raising the kids as both religions.") and it's always a disaster.
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I've seen a lot of "Oh, we're raising the kids as both religions" too. "Disaster" wouldn't be a word I'd use to describe the result, but the kids do tend to be less devout than children of a couple that's homogeneous in faith.
I think the trouble with your assertion, Minerva, is that any "Jewish education" will offer conclusions formed from a confirmation bias.
Now of course, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Jewish education" (hence the quotes), whether that be Hebrew school or majoring in Jewish history in college or simply going to temple more... of course the idea of Jesus as the Messiah is contrary to Jewish thought when the word "Jew" is limited specifically to Jews who did not take on the Christian faith.
For Christians, however, "there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him." (Romans 10:12, American Standard Version) (I'd normally use a different translation; but this one was the most readily available). This is largely why the Christian faith was separated from those who call themselves Jews: neither our ethnic heritage nor our ceremonial practices offer us salvation and community with God.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Mucus, I have mentioned before that the Elves in Tolkien's Lord of the Ring seem vaguely Jewish to me. I have also said that I think the Hobbits remind me of Canadians, but I do not wish to make a big issue of that, living as I do so close to Windsor, Ontario.
Hobbits remind you of Canadians? In Windsor?
Have you ever met real Canadians? I distinctly recall a lack of Hobbits riding polar bears to work, or igloos for that matter. Seriously, "Canada without snow?" I had to look up 3 different dictionaries to come up with that sentence.
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: I think the trouble with your assertion, Minerva, is that any "Jewish education" will offer conclusions formed from a confirmation bias.
Now of course, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Jewish education" (hence the quotes), whether that be Hebrew school or majoring in Jewish history in college or simply going to temple more... of course the idea of Jesus as the Messiah is contrary to Jewish thought when the word "Jew" is limited specifically to Jews who did not take on the Christian faith.
Say an hour with someone who knows what the Jewish concept of the messiah is, and is able to teach decently. From a Jewish perspective, it's just absurd, divinity or not. What Christians claim that Jesus was is not at all in line with what Jews claim the messiah will be.
You can take all of the requirements and say, "Oh, they meant the metaphorically, Jesus will rebuild the Temple." OK, fine. But when you water down the description to that extent, it could apply to a great many people.
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It's far from the first time this has happened. It's actually a tiny bit scary sometimes. (But if I ever get too freaked, I can just check his review of Eats, Shoots, And Leaves. )
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: I think the trouble with your assertion, Minerva, is that any "Jewish education" will offer conclusions formed from a confirmation bias.
If the mother is Jewish, then the children are. In which case, confirmation bias towards Judaism is a Very Good Thing. For you, for me, for the kids, and for the rest of the world. If the mother is not Jewish, the children should be encouraged to think of themselves as Gentiles. You know, since they are.
quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: Now of course, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Jewish education" (hence the quotes), whether that be Hebrew school or majoring in Jewish history in college or simply going to temple more...
Probably anything that would show them the error of their ways.
quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: of course the idea of Jesus as the Messiah is contrary to Jewish thought when the word "Jew" is limited specifically to Jews who did not take on the Christian faith.
It's not just contrary. A Jew who adopts Christianity is an idolator, plain and simple. Even according to those views which exempt Christianity from that category for Gentiles, it's still idolatry for Jews.
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Armoth, it does not sound to me like I am anything like your father, outside of maybe the intelligence part, and if you use him as a means for measuring me, that guarantees you will misjudge and mischaracterize me, as you have been doing. I think that some of those who criticize me just cannot handle informed and articulate opposition, and have to resort to pretending things to explain why I do not fold to their arguments. The real reason why I do not is because their positions are wrong and their arguments demonstrably weak.
Lisa, the attitude you reveal towards Jews who become Christians is interesting. Clifford Goldstein, who is now a very prominent writer and editor in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, was considered a highly intelligent Jewish scholar by his community. When through his own studies he became convinced that Christianity was essentially correct, and was baptized and became a member of the SDA church, he had to flee the state he lived in, because he learned his family was actively planning to forcibly put him into a mental institution.
I don't know why you would call Christians idolators, unless you are thinking maybe of Catholic churches with all those images of saints. But surely you realize that Protestants take sharp issue with that practice in the Catholic Church. But even Catholics say they do not worship the images. I sometimes wonder if Catholics who admire the statue of "Peter" in the Vatican realize it was orginally supposed to be a statue of Poseidon. Maybe they do and just do not care.
Most of the Christian converts from Judaism I have met say they consider that they have found their true Jewish Messiah in Jesus Christ. It is hard for most Jews to see this, mainly because of the way so many Christians have misrepresented their own faith, even besides the Sunday-keeping thing, and have treated Jews so badly in history. Many Jews who become Christians become Seventh-day Adventists, because they do not have to give up the Sabbath, and SDAs also highly value many of the things that pertained to original Judaism, such as the sanctuary, and the Scriptures prior to Matthew.
Lisa, what do you think of Felix Mendelssohn, the composer? He and his family were Jewish-Christians. His grandfather was Moses Mendelssohn, the noted Jewish philosopher. Do you ever listen to the music of Felix Mendelssohn?
[ March 26, 2009, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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quote:I don't know why you would call Christians idolators, unless you are thinking maybe of Catholic churches with all those images of saints. But surely you realize that Protestants take sharp issue with that practice in the Catholic Church. But even Catholics say they do not worship the images. I sometimes wonder if Catholics who admire the statue of "Peter" in the Vatican realize it was orginally supposed to be a statue of Poseidon. Maybe they do and just do not care.
Oh, Ron, you're like a more avuncular version of Jack Chick.
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Ron, Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler of blessed memory, spoke about the force of rebellion.
Rabbi Dessler was an emotional/spiritual advisor of sorts who helped his students process the moral messages of the Torah and to translate them into actual emotions and action. In one of his sermons, he spoke about giving rebuke, criticism and advice (as he often did).
He wrote that one cannot give criticism outright - not only would it not work, but because it will not work, it is forbidden. When one is criticized, innately, the forces of rebellion are stirred up within him. They immediately, in their heart, reject anything you say, no matter how true.
As such, Rabbi Dessler advised that criticsm should be couched with words of love and sensitivity, praising a friend before criticizing, and by making sure not to harm the person's ego. One should not place a stumbling block before a blind man - as such, it is forbidden to give criticism without precaution. The result is that the person will face an unnecessary rebellious struggle and will likely not heed the advice, no matter how true.
Ron, the veracity of your claims and the level of scholarship involved becomes completely irrelevant when your arguments are not sensitive to the people you wish to speak to. The message and its truth is step 2. Step 1 is communication. If you make your audience hate you, what use are you as a preacher?
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, the attitude you reveal towards Jews who become Christians is interesting. Clifford Goldstein, who is now a very prominent writer and editor in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, was considered a highly intelligent Jewish scholar by his community. When through his own studies he became convinced that Christianity was essentially correct, and was baptized and became a member of the SDA church, he had to flee the state he lived in, because he learned his family was actively planning to forcibly put him into a mental institution.
Good for them. But he was never any kind of Jewish scholar. He was raised a secular Jew. Had his parents been wise enough to give him a Jewish education, perhaps he wouldn't be an idolator today. A degree in semitic languages doesn't make someone a Jewish scholar.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I don't know why you would call Christians idolators, unless you are thinking maybe of Catholic churches with all those images of saints.
Ron, if I wanted to address that question, I would have addressed it. But I didn't. All I said was that even according to those who exempt Gentiles who espouse Christianity from the category of idolators do not do so in the case of Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: But surely you realize that Protestants take sharp issue with that practice in the Catholic Church.
Honestly, Ron, I couldn't possibly care less. You worship a person. You worship something/one separate from the One God. Whether that's idolatry or not for a Gentile isn't the point here. Three is not equal to One.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Most of the Christian converts from Judaism I have met say they consider that they have found their true Jewish Messiah in Jesus Christ.
I'd hazard a guess that most, if not all of them, were raised in secular homes and know even less about Judaism than you do. And that's a pretty low bar.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, what do you think of Felix Mendelssohn, the composer? He and his family were Jewish-Christians. His grandfather was Moses Mendelssohn, the noted Jewish philosopher. Do you ever listen to the music of Felix Mendelssohn?
Felix Mendelssohn was a tragedy. Moses Mendelssohn was one as well. It was his damaged philosophy that led to the creation of the Reform movement, as well as the conversion of his children.
And no, I never listen to his music. I don't even know what he's done. But it isn't because of that. I listen to Wagner, even though he was a despicable Jew-hating pre-Nazi. Bees sting, but they also make honey.
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quote:I don't know why you would call Christians idolators, unless you are thinking maybe of Catholic churches with all those images of saints. But surely you realize that Protestants take sharp issue with that practice in the Catholic Church. But even Catholics say they do not worship the images. I sometimes wonder if Catholics who admire the statue of "Peter" in the Vatican realize it was orginally supposed to be a statue of Poseidon. Maybe they do and just do not care.
Oh, Ron, you're like a more avuncular version of Jack Chick.
I was going to respond to this, but I can't think of anything better than what Tom said.
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posted
Lisa, I am surprised that you would indicate approval of Clifford Goldstein's Jewish kin for plotting to have him committed for becoming a Christian. (By the way, I heard him tell that story in person. He was guest speaker at the Troy, Mich. SDA church about 20 years ago when he recounted having to flee his state. I was in the choir loft just behind him.) But really, Lisa, misusing the psychiatric profession to punish people you don't agree with is what the old Soviet KGB used to do to dissidents. Do you meant to tell me you are no better?
By the way, it seems to me that the majority of Jewish scholars are secular. Many of them seem to be influenced by the angst of the Holocaust. They ask, if the Jews are God's chosen people, how could He have allowed that to happen?
I am surprised that you would listen to Wagner, but not to Mendelssohn. You find no appeal in the latter's Midsummer Night's Dream? His Oratorios, such as Elijah? His symphonies and concertos? His Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage overture, and other such works?
For those who may not know, Felix's grandfather, Moses, was a hunchback. One of the stories told about him is that when he obtained consent from his best friend to marry his daughter, contingent upon her approval, he gave her this spiel: "Do you believe that before we are born, it is decided whom we shall marry?" She said Yes. He said, "I was shown whom I would marry. And I said, But Lord, she is a hunchback! She will be bitter and unhappy all her life. Please, I pray, let me have the hunchback instead." According to the story, she burst into tears and gladly agreed to marry him.
Felix Mendelssohn died at the age of 39, of what modern medical experts say sounds like a cerebral aneuryism. It appears also that Moses died of the same thing, so apparently it was hereditary.
Armoth, you attempt to set aside the logical force of my arguments and cited evidence, and claim that no one needs to be persuaded by what I say because I am not "sensitive" enough. Your Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler reminds me of the expert on soccer coaching that my brother the soccer coach likes to cite, that when criticizing schoolchildren just learning to play soccer, you sandwich a constructive criticism in between two compliments. Such as: "Great enthusaism, Hector. It would be good if you did not rely so much upon kicking your opponent in the shins. But I like your drive."
There comes a time, Armoth, when it is time to grow up. If you cannot handle debate like an adult, then you should not participate. As the saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Most Jews of my experience appreciate this. They place great stock on debate. It seems to be the main avocation (if not vocation) of Jewish Rabbis and scholars. I consider that that puts me in good company, for the most part. There is fun in debate, that you are missing because you begrudge having your shins bruised. (Or whatever.)
As far as sensitivity goes, who is it who resorts to ridicule and contemptuous dismissal, personal criticisms and name-calling? You will observe it is not me.
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(the 2nd coming is pretty dramatic, so I guess we have to imagine it a little more gentle and less obvious than the 1st or it becomes too incredulous), that there will be drastic changes and some who don't go along with it. It's not as if Christianity becomes something else, but it's point in time when a significant dividing happened. All this then of course contrasts the second part of what I said which is that Christianity doesn't represent fulfillment of prophecy to practicing Jews, but the alteration or even denial of it. Just as the coming of modern day religious figures didn't impress all the Catholics in their day!]![[Smile]](smile.gif)
