quote:There comes a time, Armoth, when it is time to grow up. If you cannot handle debate like an adult, then you should not participate.
Since when does adult mean a complete absence of amiability? You are not speaking as somebody who wishes to have a dialogue. Admittedly it's good that you have such a thick skin, but I've found that a pissing contest never produces new ways of thinking.
quote:I am surprised that you would listen to Wagner, but not to Mendelssohn.
Lisa already said that she has not found occasion to listen to Mendelssohn not that she avoids him whenever she can.
quote:As far as sensitivity goes, who is it who resorts to ridicule and contemptuous dismissal, personal criticisms and name-calling? You will observe it is not me.
Maybe so, but you sometimes resolve to smug and condescending dismissals of your opposition's point of view. That to me is exactly the same as contemptuous dismissal.
You don't debate with the intent of lovingly imparting your own thoughts while letting others do as they please with your offerings, instead you seem to relish the exhibition of your mental powers. It's as if debate for you is a dance off where both participants seek to prove that their agility is greater.
I could spend all my time smugly laughing at your attempts to understand Christianity as you do not have the benefit of modern revelation or scripture, and instead limit yourself to what is found in the Old and New Testament. You do exactly that except you ridicule Jews for using the Old Testament instead of accepting the New Testament.
I actually like you Ron, I find that many of your comments regarding the scriptures are close to my own, but I also find that even if I agree with your conclusion 100%, I often find that I could not agree with the way you presented it. Were I coming from a different point of view I would dismiss your arguments purely because I don't much enjoy telling a braggart that they are right.
I wouldn't call those disagreeing with you universally polite in their remarks, in fact there are some who are being quite obnoxious. Even Jesus had people laughing and criticizing him though he spoke aright. You can't always convince the majority of people even if you are exactly right, sometimes there is only one person in your audience who is going to see the validity of your arguments, often they won't even say anything to let you know they've changed their minds.
But get over yourself and get out of the way of your message, you're being a stumbling block for those you seek to convince. Not that we should be seeking to convert anybody here anyway. I think the forum is a more diverse place with you here Ron, and I believe you are capable of understanding what I'm trying to say, though I am not even near perfectly adept at saying it. But I did have two years of intense 16 hour days where I learned to discuss the gospel, and I initially spoke quite often in the manner you do in this thread. But when I learned to care more about improving somebody's life rather than getting them to agree with me, that both me and the people I was addressing were edified and quality of life increased.
Why not attempt to find common ground? Why not conceded a point once in awhile? You don't have to lie to yourself, but I find it unlikely that everything being said by Lisa, Shmuel, rivka, Armoth, etc is completely wrong, and I am certain that not everything you or I say is 100% correct. So lets live in the real world and talk as if we do as well Ron, can you agree?
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BlackBlade, you said: "Maybe so, but you sometimes resolve to smug and condescending dismissals of your opposition's point of view."
(I assume you mean "resort" rather than "resolve.")
That is entirely your own misinterpretation. You reach the point where you just blatantly tell lies about me. I present the facts as clearly and in as straightforward and economical a manner as possible. I attempt to make the logic of my arguments and their basis so clear that no one can misunderstand.
Maybe it upsets you that I contradict you. Some people cannot stand contradiction. You are probably taking personally things you do not need to take personally, since I usually am speaking to an idea or belief or theory. How wed to them you are is your problem.
As for finding common ground, I am more interested in finding truth, and in speaking up when someone propounds something I know is untrue and can prove is untrue. Especially when they are dangerously untrue and can lead to your distruction. In the long run, that is doing a much greater service to everyone than just trying to be compromising and temporizing. We are discussing life or death issues, that matter not just in this world and this life; but in Heaven and earth, and for eternity. There is a real importance to what I am trying to get across to you. That is what I care about. That is what shows how much I care about you. Sometimes I feel some kinship with the prophets of old, who faithfully gave to the people the messages of the Lord, and were stoned for their efforts.
(Of course, whether Lisa likes Wagner and not so much Mendelssohn is not a life-or-death matter.)
What point do you think I need to concede? You haven't proven me wrong on anything. You have hardly even tried! I am still waiting for some of you to acknowledge that I made valid points, and backed them up with sound scholarship, relevant textual citations, appeals to people like Eric Snow, etc. All some of you ever do is try to dismiss me with ridicule, name-calling, etc. That I do not respond in kind does not mean I am insensitive, it means that I am not vulnerable to your cheap shots. Why you keep making them when they do you no good, do not throw me off, and only expose your own weakness to any thoughtful reader, is a mystery to me.
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quote:I initially spoke quite often in the manner you do in this thread.
Really? Egad.
I'm glad I've grown out of it to some degree. I think part of it was also that while I was in the Missionary Training Center your entire life is changing in some very radical ways, one of the ways I tried to cope was to cling to my own sense of intellectuality. Stoking my own self confidence in the face of such difficulty by being smug, I tried to rebel against the change by arguing that I didn't need to in some important aspects.
I've mentioned this before but a key moment for that change in direction came when I had a mission companion who told me I was not focused enough on missionary work and was too distracted by other things. I said, "You're such a hypocrite, you're as distracted as anybody I've seen." He responded, "I know it, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about you."
If it makes you feel any better Tom, while I do see you being fair minded very often there are times when you have not exactly endeared me to your behavior.
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quote:That is entirely your own misinterpretation. You reach the point where you just blatantly tell lies about me.
Wherein have I spoken lies about thee?
quote: I present the facts as clearly and in as straightforward and economical a manner as possible. I attempt to make the logic of my arguments and their basis so clear that no one can misunderstand.
Maybe that's your problem, in your desire to find absolute accuracy you have forgotten that men are men not machines. Jesus used parables quite often, not because parables were the most accurate way to present his message but because the attitudes of those he was addressing necessitate that manner of teaching.
quote:Maybe it upsets you that I contradict you. Some people cannot stand contradiction. You are probably taking personally things you do not need to take personally, since I usually am speaking to an idea or belief or theory. How wed to them you are is your problem.
I am not upset, if I'm upset about an idea I'll let you know in no uncertain terms. By making certain that your opposition is heard and understood I think many negative feelings can be averted. Rational people tend to get frustrated more with the fact that no real discussion is taking place rather than that their ideas as being questioned.
quote:As for finding common ground, I am more interested in finding truth, and in speaking up when someone propounds something I know is untrue and can prove is untrue.
There you have it Ron, you're openly admitting that common ground is not something you are concerned with as the urgency of your ideas preclude any consideration.
quote:We are discussing life or death issues, that matter not just in this world and this life; but in Heaven and earth, and for eternity. There is a real importance to what I am trying to get across to you. That is what I care about. That is what shows how much I care about you. Sometimes I feel some kinship with the prophets of old, who faithfully gave to the people the messages of the Lord, and were stoned for their efforts.
Ron, what profit is there in a unruly man crying repentance? Have you removed the beam in your own eye so that you can remove the mote in your neighbor's? That's what finding a common ground does, we acknowledge our imperfections and the holes in our arguments. You have an imperfect Bible changed and altered by imperfect scribes handed down to them by imperfect Jewish scribes. Were I to care nothing for your feelings I'd say, "Who cares what Eric Snow thinks, there are hundreds of pages from real prophets inspired by God that you haven't even read" (I'm assuming you have not read the Book of Mormon or any other scripture since the Bible was created.) But what good would that do for either of us? You are trying to prove that your interpretation of Psalms is correct, and that it speaks to Jesus being the messiah. You have further argued that in Daniel he unequivocally sets a predicated time limit for the messiah to be born and that Jesus also fits that. Even if you're right on both counts, and I do think you are right, what now? The enormity of what you are asking your opposition to accept is of such import that only the most sensitive feelings should attend such a request. Instead you have opted to take the road of, "I'm right sinners, now acknowledge your guilt and repent." My own parents who I love more than life itself could not ask me to do such a thing in that manner and expect results, who are you Ron?
quote:What point do you think I need to concede? You haven't proven me wrong on anything. You have hardly even tried!
You're right Ron, because as far as I am concerned your failure to represent our savior as His sworn disciple concerns me more than any particular intellectual point you are making.
quote:All some of you ever do is try to dismiss me with ridicule, name-calling, etc.
And when that happens you put the books away and move on because they aren't ready for your message. Even Jesus could "perform no miracle" in certain places because of the unwillingness of some to believe. But I assure you Ron, you are not doing all you could do to make your ideas as palpable as possible.
quote:Why you keep making them when they do you no good, do not throw me off, and only expose your own weakness to any thoughtful reader, is a mystery to me.
I'm assuming you are addressing this remark to those who do those things. I do not think I have.
How about conceding that since humans have certainly made mistakes in the Bible, that in of itself renders any appeal to the text as we have it difficult.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I am surprised that you would listen to Wagner, but not to Mendelssohn.
Never heard anything by him. Whereas I know The Ride of the Valkyries both from a classical album my father used to play when I was growing up, and from the brilliant Bugs Bunny cartoon that used it.
I don't generally choose the art I like by whether I'd like the person who created it. That's what I meant when I said that bees sting, but they also make honey.
That said, philosophically speaking, Wagner was a non-Jew. And a German. His antisemitism... well, let's just say that dogs bite and leave it at that. Mendelssohn had no such excuse.
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quote:Sometimes I feel some kinship with the prophets of old, who faithfully gave to the people the messages of the Lord, and were stoned for their efforts.
Color me completely unsurprised.
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quote:Sometimes I feel some kinship with the prophets of old, who faithfully gave to the people the messages of the Lord, and were stoned for their efforts.
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Lisa, it does not sound like you would consider yourself a fan of classical music. I definitely am, so of course I am familiar with practically everything Mendelssohn and Wagner composed. It just surprises me that you would express prejudice against Mendelssohn merely because he was part of a Jewish-Christian family--especially since, as you say, you are unfamiliar with his music. That you would evidently have more animosity towards someone who at least partook of a Jewish heredity, than someone who was overtly antisemitic--and is known as Adolph Hitler's favorite composer--makes me question your priorities.
But I guess it is a human tendency to reserve our greatest animosity towards those who are the most like us, but just disagree a little bit. Christians mainly burned Christians at the stake, not atheists so much. I guess you Jewish people are in fact just like us.
That reminds me of a statement by a Jewish writer (whose name I have forgotten) who said that he figured the reason why God chose the Jews to be the chosen people was not because they were better than any other people, or more spiritual, but because they were just like everyone else, "only more so." That is, if they are religious, they are zealously religious. If they are secular, they are zealously secular. (I think I may have mentioned this to you before.)
Someday perhaps you will come to admit that you have more in common with us Christians than you now are willing to admit.
Thank you at least for continuing to dialog with me; so many Jewish people refuse even to do this with Christians.
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It's weird to stereotype an entire people based on the opinions and behaviors of one.
Lisa, Myself, Rivka, Shmuel and others on this board who are Jewish - have we exhibited similar personalities? Similar writing styles?
Most Jews I know do not buy German. My father still refuses to buy a German car, like most people in my community will not. That will probably change soon enough.
But I still don't get where Lisa's musical preferences allow you to draw the conclusion that "you Jewish people are in fact just like us."
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Not sure about the first, but definitely communicated with the second. I think the class in question ended up getting canceled though.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, it does not sound like you would consider yourself a fan of classical music. I definitely am, so of course I am familiar with practically everything Mendelssohn and Wagner composed. It just surprises me that you would express prejudice against Mendelssohn merely because he was part of a Jewish-Christian family--especially since, as you say, you are unfamiliar with his music. That you would evidently have more animosity towards someone who at least partook of a Jewish heredity, than someone who was overtly antisemitic--and is known as Adolph Hitler's favorite composer--makes me question your priorities.
Like I said, dogs bite. So a German composer was an anti-semite. Do you think he was the only one? The fact that Hitler liked him... now I'm going to let Hitler decide what kind of music I like? That's nuts.
Nor am I a racist, so the fact that Mendelssohn "partook of a Jewish heredity" doesn't mean squat. So did his children, and none of them were Jewish in any way. He was a Jew, and he apostasized, and he was an idolator, which harmed him, harmed the entire Jewish people, and harmed reality itself. Better that he had died before doing such a thing. Better that he had been stillborn than live to damage the world.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: But I guess it is a human tendency to reserve our greatest animosity towards those who are the most like us, but just disagree a little bit.
Yes, it is. But that's not the operating factor here. When a non-Jew is a vicious anti-semite, he may be scum, but it isn't earth-shattering. When a Jew is an idolator, it is.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Christians mainly burned Christians at the stake, not atheists so much. I guess you Jewish people are in fact just like us.
God forbid. Christians often burned Jews. And many of the Christians they burned were burned under suspicion of being secret Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: That reminds me of a statement by a Jewish writer (whose name I have forgotten) who said that he figured the reason why God chose the Jews to be the chosen people was not because they were better than any other people, or more spiritual, but because they were just like everyone else, "only more so." That is, if they are religious, they are zealously religious. If they are secular, they are zealously secular. (I think I may have mentioned this to you before.)
Yeah, maybe. I think it's kind of dumb, though.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Someday perhaps you will come to admit that you have more in common with us Christians than you now are willing to admit.
Maimonides wrote, speaking of what purpose Christianity might have in the world, that Christianity has exposed the entire world to the true word of God (albeit in a very false way). That when the time comes, Christians will have helped pave the way for everyone to know the truth, in spite of themselves.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Thank you at least for continuing to dialog with me; so many Jewish people refuse even to do this with Christians.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Most Jews I know do not buy German.
You need to get out more.
I know some who feel this way, but far more who don't even worry about it.
I certainly don't. I mean, given a choice between something made in the Arab world and something not made there, I'll generally choose the latter, but Germany? It's a bit late now. Had it been up to me, I would have razed and salted the place after WWII and scattered them to the four winds, but it's 2009. Virtually all of the Nazi vermin are dead.
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Lisa, years ago, I dated a lady who had a Jewish mother and a Catholic father. She told me she was fond as a teenager of saying "But I'm Protestant!"
She told me that like many people with a Jewish heritage, she was averse to the color brown, especially in automobiles. Seems that it is reminiscent of the Nazi "Brown shirts." Conversely, the best colors would be white trimmed with blue--like the Israeli flag.
Saying that Felix Mendelssohn (and the world) would have been better off if he had been stillborn, just because his Jewish family chose to become Christian, seems a bit much. I have to say, if yours is in any way representative of the attitude of very many Jewish people, then I am glad that Jews do not rule the world.
Oh, what you said about Christians being burned at the stake for suspicion of being Jews, derives from the fact that so many records of such events that have been preserved from the nearly 1,300-year history of the Papacy, list as one of the chief offenses for which the victim was executed (martyred, in truth) was "Judaizing." That was a code word for keeping the seventh-day Sabbath. It is astonishing to realize how many Christians from the time just a few hundred years after the Apostles, to the ending of Papal dominion by conquest by the armies of Napoleon, were killed for keeping the seventh-day Sabbath. It shows that Sunday-keeping was never any where near universal among Christians. Thousands, perhaps millions of Christians, were willing to die for the Sabbath. My understanding of Bible prophecy (especially in Revelation 13) is that this will happen again, on a world-wide scale.
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Nice Rivka. Just stereotype us New Yorkers...
Actually, in Yeshiva in Israel I had a good friend from Pittsburgh. And I was so used to talking about home to my Israeli relatives and explaining: "In America,..." - that when I spoke to my friend from Pittsburgh, when I was trying to explain the way we did things in NY, i said, "In America..." - It got him pretty upset...
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Nice Rivka. Just stereotype us New Yorkers...
Some stereotypes have a basis in truth.
And you're the one who keeps assuming that the way Jews you know do things is the way most/all Jews do things. IME, this is a trap NY Jews fall into with far greater regularity than those from anywhere else. (As opposed to Israeli charedim, who are more likely to think that the way they do things is the way most/all Jews should do things! )
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Not at all. Plenty of Israeli Jews speak primarily Yiddish. And a fair number of New York Jews speak less Yiddish than I do.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: And you're the one who keeps assuming that the way Jews you know do things is the way most/all Jews do things. IME, this is a trap NY Jews fall into with far greater regularity than those from anywhere else. (As opposed to Israeli charedim, who are more likely to think that the way they do things is the way most/all Jews should do things! )
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::shrug:: I know a lot of Jews! I have close friends from different communities in the U.S. - LA, Richmond, Pittsburgh, Houston, Atlanta - as well as the crazy number of communities in NY.
When I said most Jews at any point in this thread (though admittedly, at times I meant most Orthodox Jews), have you disagreed with me? (The German thing I said was in my community, which I still believe is true).
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In my experience, usually the Jews with an aversion to buying German are from my grandparent's generation.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: When I said most Jews at any point in this thread (though admittedly, at times I meant most Orthodox Jews), have you disagreed with me?
Yes, several times. And sometimes I said so. When it was something I agreed with for the most part, or agreed was right more often than not (if not "most"), I usually let it go.
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I just scrolled through the 7 pages of the this thread - I didn't find any time you voiced your disagreement with me.
Though one time you said that it was a day where Shmuel was saying things you would say only better - I think after he had disagreed with me.
I don't mean to be annoying, I'm just the Jewish newcomer to the board and I want to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes...
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How is it possible not to step on the toes of someone Jewish?
Seriously, whom would most of you say is the more extremely conservative--Orthodox Jews or Hassidic Jews? I have tended to regard Hassidic Jews as Orthodox Jews who are somewhat on the charismatic side (pardon the Christian term).
When they were building the I-696 expressway in SE Michigan, the way it ran would separate many Orthodox Jews from their synagogues in Oak Park. So they built the overpasses especially wide, and planted grass and small trees along the walkway, so the Jews could walk to synogogue and back without violating their beliefs. When you are driving on I-696, the overpasses are like two really long tunnels hundreds of feet long.
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Man. If I were forced at gunpoint to describe Hassidic Jews with one adjective, "charismatic" would definitely not be that adjective.
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Tom, you probably already know this but for those who might not, Ron likely is using "charismatic" in the religious sense which has nothing to do with charm or personal attractiveness or influence. It refers to having certain graces or gifts like speaking in tongues or healing.
Still, I would not have used that word to describe Hassidic Jews unless Ron means that they are cultural less mainstream.
ETA: It is a pretty specifically New Testament term.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: How is it possible not to step on the toes of someone Jewish?
I know, right? Those damned Jews are so hypersensitive about everything.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Seriously, whom would most of you say is the more extremely conservative--Orthodox Jews or Hassidic Jews? I have tended to regard Hassidic Jews as Orthodox Jews who are somewhat on the charismatic side (pardon the Christian term).
The problem with such terms is that they simply don't fit.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Tom, you probably already know this but for those who might not, Ron likely is using "charismatic" in the religious sense which has nothing to do with charm or personal attractiveness or influence. It refers to having certain graces or gifts like speaking in tongues or healing.
Still, I would not have used that word to describe Hassidic Jews unless Ron means that they are cultural less mainstream.
They tend towards the mystical, if that's what Ron intended to say. While Kabbalah is only rejected completely by a small segment of Orthodox Jewry, it's most strongly embraced by Hasidim.
Note: I'm not talking about the Madonna/Red Thread/Kabbalah Center/Berg nuttiness; but real Kabbalah.
In addition, up to a few decades ago, they were much more into a kind of "cult of personality" thing than non-Hasidic Orthodox Jews. Each Hasidic group had its Rebbe, who was virtually infallible in their eyes, and who they saw as "closer to God" than the average Jew. Unfortunately, this attitude has spread to a lot of non-Hasidic Orthodox communities of late. Ugh.
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The way us outsiders view the "Charismatic Movement" is that it places a great emphasis upon the personal emotional/spiritual experience. Among some Protestant as well as Catholic Christians, this usually is characterized by a focus on "the gifts of the Spirit," which in turn almost always means an emphasis upon the "gift of tongues," which in most cases winds up as a manifestation of ecstatic utterances. Some might cynically observe that the gift of "tongues" as most commonly practiced in charismatic groups is so popular because it is the gift of the Spirit that is easiest to fake.
Most mainline Christians think this is a misinterpretation of the gift of tongues, since in the Bible, the gift of tongues always gave the recipient the ability to speak in a language they never learned, or enabled multi-ethnic hearers to hear one speaker speaking in their own languages (as happened at Pentecost). The purpose was to facilitate communication, not hinder it with the confusion of meaningless babbling. There is not much value in an "unknown tongue." All the gifts of the Spirit are designed to build up the church, not multiply confusion.
Christians like me have been surprised to note a behavior that seems very similar among Hasidic Jews. They may call it something different, but the emphasis is still upon a personal emotional/spiritual experience. I for one suspect that the "charismatic movement" is in large part responsible for the Hasidic "subgroup" that Rivka referred to.
Wherever there is a feeling that a straight-laced emphasis upon doctrines and standards of behavior, characteristic of most churches to varying degrees, is oppressive, there is a natural tendency to embrace something fresh and new and that promises some emotional breaking free. Everyone wants to feel good, and charismatic behavior usually makes people feel good. Just like singing and dancing does. I would think that members of Orthodox Jewish groups would be especially susceptible to this.
I have not heard if there is any equivalent among Islamic groups, but I would not be surprised to learn that such exists.
[ March 30, 2009, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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There is a difference between Judaism and the practice of Jews. Most Modern Orthodox Jews that I know don't actually practice the ideals of Modern Orthodoxy. I'm sure every religion has what to compare this to.
The Judaism that I practice is no Hasidic, yet it's essence is emotional. The Talmud states: "Rachmana liba ba'i" - The Merciful One (God) desires your heart. The tremendous stress on law and ritual comes from the reverence of God and His commandments - to be extremely diligent in the fulfillment of His will.
Again, speaking from my own experience, the Judaism I practice is all about relationships and will of the being you are relating to. The relationship between man and himself, between man and his fellow man (family, friends, community, and outward), and ultimately between Man and God. It's a big fest of love and awe.
In a bunch of Jewish History courses that I took, my professors took the view that you took. That the Hasidic movement was influenced by the stuff that was going on in the Christian world at the same time. Similarly, in medieval times, they posit that the philosophical Maimonidean perspectives in Judaism were influenced by the Muslims (Kalaam) through the Greeks.
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While we're on the subject of Hasidism, I've seen two ways of parsing the title "Baal Shem Tov". 1. "Tov" modifies "Shem"; thus it means "Master of the Good Name" or "Master of the Good Reputation". 2. "Baal Shem" refers to "Master of the (Divine) Name" with "Tov" as an added honorific referring to the man. Any thoughts?
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Many Hebrew phrases or names are meant to have multiple meanings. It's not supposed to be one or the other. It's both.
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