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Author Topic: Should there be additional qualifications for the right to vote?
malanthrop
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Read about it yourselves, just google "postal monopoly"

When I was in the Navy I oredered a replacement doorknob for my shop, it cost $120 in 1999

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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Please read the link.

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2009-03-24.asp

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-eh043096.html
http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v1n2/ant_v1n2_post.html

Okay, I read all three links. The first is apparently a link t a blog hosted by something with the initials fff. The second seems to have something to do with the Cato Institute (I've heard of that!). The third has "reformed" in the url, for what that's worth.

Now, should I click on the links and check out the actual sites?

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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
I'm happy to give more to suplement truly needy people but I have no sypmpathy for the rest.

What's your definition of a truly needy person?
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natural_mystic
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Please read the link.

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2009-03-24.asp

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-eh043096.html
http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v1n2/ant_v1n2_post.html

Okay, I read all three links. The first is apparently a link t a blog hosted by something with the initials fff. The second seems to have something to do with the Cato Institute (I've heard of that!). The third has "reformed" in the url, for what that's worth.

Now, should I click on the links and check out the actual sites?

[ROFL]
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malanthrop
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If you don't trust my links, just google "postal monopoly" and pick your own sites to read about it.
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Dobbie
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You mean like the one I just posted about a half-hour ago, where I quoted the actual regulation granting the post office its monopoly?

quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/608.htm

5.0 Private Express Statutes
5.1 Private Express Statutes
5.1.1 Legal Foundation
By the laws known as the Private Express Statutes, Congress has generally conferred on the USPS the exclusive right to carry letters for others over post routes. USPS regulations under the Private Express Statutes are in the Code of Federal Regulations, 39 CFR 310 and 320, as amended by final rules published in the Federal Register...

5.1.2 Definition of a Letter for Private Express
For the Private Express Statutes, a letter is a message directed to a specific person or address and recorded in or on a tangible object. A message consists of any information or intelligence that can be recorded on tangible objects including, but not limited to, paper in sheet or card form, recording disks, and magnetic tapes...


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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
If you don't trust my links, just google "postal monopoly" and pick your own sites to read about it.

You did notice that all the site on the first page of Googledom were Cato sites or other right wing sites. Except for the link to the USPS which explained that the postal monopoly is not what you think it is.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
You mean like the one I just posted about a half-hour ago, where I quoted the actual regulation granting the post office its monopoly?

quote:
Originally posted by Dobbie:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/608.htm

5.0 Private Express Statutes
5.1 Private Express Statutes
5.1.1 Legal Foundation
By the laws known as the Private Express Statutes, Congress has generally conferred on the USPS the exclusive right to carry letters for others over post routes. USPS regulations under the Private Express Statutes are in the Code of Federal Regulations, 39 CFR 310 and 320, as amended by final rules published in the Federal Register...

5.1.2 Definition of a Letter for Private Express
For the Private Express Statutes, a letter is a message directed to a specific person or address and recorded in or on a tangible object. A message consists of any information or intelligence that can be recorded on tangible objects including, but not limited to, paper in sheet or card form, recording disks, and magnetic tapes...


I wish I found that one.

Here's another company that was too big to fail and subsidized by the tax payer, artificially low ticket prices...guess the govt made it cheaper for billions of dollars.

AMTRAK
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6146

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Only USPS sends regular envelopes and post cards, by law.
That's not technically correct. The monopoly is over "non-urgent" mail. FedEx could, if it wanted, deliver "urgent" letters in any form factor it desires, but it makes economic sense for them to standardize on a form factor.
MattP is correct. As I noted earlier, the USPS monopoly is not on letters, its on non-urgent letters and based on enforcement, an urgent letter is anything you are willing to pay to have delivered in 2 days or less. USPS also has a monopoly on the use of post boxes.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
When I was in the Navy I oredered a replacement doorknob for my shop, it cost $120 in 1999
That proves it!!!!!!

(That totally reminded me of Fry in Futuram during the Bigfoot presentation at the national park, saying exactly those words:))

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Prediction, not example.

No, it's an example.

If you're just calling it a 'prediction,' then your reading comprehension is so poor as to unintentionally shift the goalposts in response to your own failed challenges.

I'll say it again.


Government.


Health.


Care.

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Orincoro
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Dude, he's not interested. Why are you still interested? He shifted his focus away from that as soon as he realized he had no idea what the hell he was talking about.
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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Only USPS sends regular envelopes and post cards, by law.
That's not technically correct. The monopoly is over "non-urgent" mail. FedEx could, if it wanted, deliver "urgent" letters in any form factor it desires, but it makes economic sense for them to standardize on a form factor.
MattP is correct. As I noted earlier, the USPS monopoly is not on letters, its on non-urgent letters and based on enforcement, an urgent letter is anything you are willing to pay to have delivered in 2 days or less. USPS also has a monopoly on the use of post boxes.
Based on the law, urgent is whatever the USPS says it is.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Dude, he's not interested. Why are you still interested? He shifted his focus away from that as soon as he realized he had no idea what the hell he was talking about.

Well, health care is my pet issue. If there's any debate I'm prepared to bury someone in, this is it.
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Well, health care is my pet issue. If there's any debate I'm prepared to bury someone in, this is it.

Yeah! Health care is my coffin! I mean, it's your coffin!

<_<
>_>


( [Wink] )

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TomDavidson
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If we had universal health care in this country, it could be everyone's coffin.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
USPS also has a monopoly on the use of post boxes.

???

There are plenty of private mailbox places.

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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Prediction, not example.

No, it's an example.

If you're just calling it a 'prediction,' then your reading comprehension is so poor as to unintentionally shift the goalposts in response to your own failed challenges.

I'll say it again.


Government.


Health.


Care.

Here are the examples of govt health care that are in existence (anything else is a prediction):

FEHP Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan
http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/postalhmo2009.pdf

BiWeekly Insurance Premium for a family $200-$500

Medicare - doubt you even want to go there.

Medicaid - ditto

Plenty of employers offer health care benefits and government employees are no exception. FEHB is insurance provided to an employee of the federal govt.....key word.....employee. If you don't work for the govt, it has nothing to do with you. You're mixing the concepts of universal health care and FEHB.


FEHB costs up to $13,000 per year per family. (the company I fall under is cheaper)

I suppose you would argue that a person living in government subsidized housing is living cheaper. The rent is still being paid, only by the government.
- If I rented my home under the Section 8 program, the rent I would recieve at the govt expense is more than the prevailing rent in the area. (I'd take less to not have sec 8 in my house)

Amtrak tickets "cost" twice as much as you pay at the counter because it is subsidized by the government.

"federal subsidy equals about 64 percent of its revenues from all other sources (e.g., tickets, food service, and state subsi­dies) and nearly equals total ticket revenue for the year.[11] In effect, for every dollar spent on a ticket, the rail passenger receives another dollar from U.S. taxpayers"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2626_v125/ai_19622623/

http://www.heritage.org/research/budget/bg2072.cfm

If the government gave you free healthcare it wouldn't actually be free. All you care about is YOU don't pay for it or it is subsidized by someone else. Government is less efficient and more expensive than private industry.

[ April 02, 2009, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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Lyrhawn
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The concept is the same, the only difference is application.

quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
USPS also has a monopoly on the use of post boxes.

???

There are plenty of private mailbox places.

Mailboxes etc. comes to mind off the top of my head.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Here are the examples of govt health care that are in existence (anything else is a prediction):
...

Interesting. When the going gets tough, redefine all government systems of medical care outside of the United States as "predictions."
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malanthrop
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I don't care about systems outside the United States. They don't apply here. Cuba has a great universal health care system, ask Michael Moore. This country was founded to escape European political systems and to establish a new system of INDIVIDUAL freedom and liberty. Keep your kings, queens, czars, dictators and prime ministers. In America you are free to succeed or fail. Rich can become poor and poor can become rich. American muslims have a higher average income than American whites. How are Muslims doing in Europe?

[ April 02, 2009, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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malanthrop
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"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address.

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe" John Adams - 2nd Pres.

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds...our people.. must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live.. We have not time to think, no means of calling the mis-managers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow suffers. Our landholders, too...retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must...be contented with penury, obscurity and exile.. private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance.

This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering... And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in it's train wretchedness and oppression." Thomas Jefferson

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." Abraham Lincoln

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." George Washington

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
USPS also has a monopoly on the use of post boxes.

???

There are plenty of private mailbox places.

I think Rabbit meant delivery thereto.
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rivka
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Ah!!! Indeed.
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Orincoro
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Mal, that last diatribe tops them all as the stupidest thing you've managed to say so far.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Mal, that last diatribe tops them all as the stupidest thing you've managed to say so far.

Very insightful retort... I'll have to add diatribe to my list.

Thanks for admitting you find our founding principles to be stupid.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I don't care about systems outside the United States. They don't apply here.
Is there some reason they shouldn't apply here, or be considered as an inspiration?

Aside of course from the unmanning fear of czars and dowager princesses and whatnot. I mean, if we bring in one thing from Europe, it's BACK TO FEUDALISM, BABY!

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malanthrop
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There's one very good reason they shouldn't apply here....The United States Constitution.

They can be inspirational, sure. European unemployment rates and Muslim strife inspire me to realize our system is sooooo much better.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:

Thanks for admitting you find our founding principles to be stupid.

Thanks for proving me right. The "founding principles" are not a bludgeon for you to wield like your personal mace.

I find you to be stupid, for the record, not the so called "founding principles" which you so blithely toss about.

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beleaguered
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Orincoro,
quote:
"founding principles" which you so blithely toss about.
Thanks for the new word- blithe. I hadn't ever used that in my vocabulary, but after I looked it up, I noticed how appropriately it can be used in many situations of my life. I will put it to good use right away!

Blithe- Happy and cheerful; gay; joyous!

I know when it comes to our founding principles, I too would toss them blithely as did Malanthrop, since they are cause for much of my joy and happiness while living in this great nation. I would very happily and cheerfully, joyfully, and gaily discuss quotes from our founding fathers.

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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:

Thanks for admitting you find our founding principles to be stupid.

Thanks for proving me right. The "founding principles" are not a bludgeon for you to wield like your personal mace.

I find you to be stupid, for the record, not the so called "founding principles" which you so blithely toss about.

I find it particularly telling that you felt bludgeoned by them since I let them stand alone. I made no comment when I posted them. I made no attempt to interpret or explain them. I'm sorry you found the words of our founders disturbing.

[ April 03, 2009, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Keep your kings, queens, czars, dictators and prime ministers.
Can we have their insurance companies?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
I don't care about systems outside the United States. They don't apply here.

The problem is that they do, and you are contorting wildly to try to say that they do not.

You're trying to avoid the issue by saying that because we don't have them now, that doesn't apply here. That's like if we lived in a country without running water, and when I tried to tell you that running water is definitely something that is better than not having running water, you would say that it doesn't apply because it's not a system 'here,' and is therefore a 'prediction.'

It is somewhere between a diatribe and an attempt at perpetuating ignorance.

The leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States is unpaid medical bills; the United States has more lost productivity and a lower average working age range than any of the other 'modernized' high-income nations such as the G8.

Half of the uninsured people in America owe money to hospitals and a third are being pursued by collection agencies. Children without health insurance are less likely to receive medical attention considered reasonable and appropriate for serious injuries, for recurrent ear infections, or for asthma. Lung-cancer patients without insurance are less likely to receive surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation treatment. Heart-attack victims without health insurance are less likely to receive angioplasty. People with pneumonia who don’t have health insurance are less likely to receive X-rays or consultations.

The death rate in any given year for someone without health insurance is twenty-five per cent higher than for someone with insurance. Part of this is correlative to the higher risks and lifestyles of poorer demographics and part of this is certifiably due to the consequence of moral hazard models in leaving chronic and/or life threatening conditions untreated.

Americans spend $5,267 per capita on health care every year, almost two and half times the industrialized world’s median of $2,193; the extra spending comes to hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The extra spending does not provide us with anything approaching the effectiveness of non-actuarial models.

We have fewer doctors per capita than most Western countries.

We go to the doctor less than people in other Western countries.

We get admitted to the hospital less frequently than people in other Western countries.

We are less satisfied with our health care than our counterparts in other countries.

American life expectancy is lower than the Western average.

Childhood-immunization rates in the United States are lower than average.

Infant-mortality rates are in the nineteenth percentile of industrialized nations, which means that we have higher infant mortality rates than some developing countries.

Doctors here perform more high-end medical procedures, such as coronary angioplasties, than in other countries, but most of the wealthier Western countries have more CT scanners than the United States does, and Switzerland, Japan, Austria, and Finland all have more MRI machines per capita.

The United States spends more than a thousand dollars per capita per year—or close to four hundred billion dollars—on health-care-related paperwork and administration. In contrast, a country like Canada spends only about three hundred dollars per capita.

And, of course, every other country in the industrialized world insures all its citizens; despite those extra hundreds of billions of dollars we spend each year, we leave over fifty million people without any insurance.

These systems do not exist in a vacuum outside the American Experience. The systems which work better, work better in countries and collectives which act as analogues to our own modernized infrastructure. We, in fact, have bits of health care right in front of your own face that you can't help but attempt to ignore, such as the VA. We have stuff like this, and medicare, right in the middle of our 'privatized' system because the privatized system cannot float on its own.

The most important doctor in society, the most important doctor you will ever have, is the family doctor. The GP who knows your weight, your blood pressure, complains when you smoke, all of that. As has been noted, they make a decent salary but nothing special. They're in line with what European doctors make.

Until you factor in malpractice insurance, which has been increasing its rates about 20% a year for the past decade or more, while doctor salaries have not kept in line. On account of this, the take-home pay of these doctors most critically associated with health and well-being is going down. (http://www.gnyha.org/3283/File.aspx).

A perfect example of how disastrous this trend is is to look at New York City hospitals' malpractice insurance, which has gone up 147% in five years, to the point where they are shutting down obstetrics divisions.

The end result of all this is that doctors are being chased into lucrative sub-fields in order to maintain their lifestyle. They have bills to pay, but under our current system, doctors are not paid to make people well, they are paid to perform procedures. Even worse, they are only really paid for the procedures they didn't have to perform on people who cannot pay. Many doctors, to maximize their income, are learning to perform the most expensive procedures possible, and they are competing to get into fields where they don't have to do work that they won't get paid for.

If they paid doctors to make people well, you'd have a lot more GP's, who are the ones on the front lines actually doing this. Instead, the 'winners' in the current system are carving out transplant hearts and vacuuming out fat and stapling stomachs and crowding quickly into any and all available fields where you don't have to do shit for anyone who can't pay, and thus, are not forced to accept the poor people of society as a financial liability. Since medical professionals are all crowding these optional procedure fields as fast as possible, prices for these services are going down. It's not a demonstration of how uninfluenced competition is working to our benefit in some fields as much as it it is another hilarious symptom of a collapsing medical system.

Cosmetic surgeons and the like are the 'winners' of our current system. They do completely optional and expensive procedures, only for people who pay out of pocket, they are not forced to work through thieving bureaucratic intermediaries, they are not forced by financially 'unfortunate' policies to care for those who cannot pay, and despite being under the catchall term of a medical profession, they're a little different -- they are actually all but irrelevant to our general health. They cater only to those who have the excess wealth to spend on optional procedures.

The end result is that the government has already been forced to bribe doctors with taxpayer money to remain as essentially skeleton crews in necessary medical fields which HAVE to be staffed (city hospitals, etc) but nearly NO competent doctor would stay in business in if they were forced to rely upon the profit model. Just about every single top doc in places like North Dakota or Arkansas is essentially bribed by the government with huge amounts of supplemental income to not leave. It's another example of how we're trying inefficiently to sneak in socialized solutions to float the broken moral hazard model and still somehow pretend, for the benefit of some schmucks, that it's seaworthy of its own accord.

You made a side jab about Michael Moore and Cuba. It was misinformed, of course, because you're Malanthrop, but it brings up an interesting issue.

While Cuba doesn't have a system as effectual as ours, it has one that is quite cheaper and manages to almost rate as high as our own despite being a bare-bones system in an impoverished dictatorship. In fact, the further our own system collapses, the more a chance it has of surpassing the effectiveness of our own. Whoops, not a terribly great example to bring up; in fact, I'd say it's a little embarrassing!

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by beleaguered:
Orincoro,
quote:
"founding principles" which you so blithely toss about.
Thanks for the new word- blithe. I hadn't ever used that in my vocabulary, but after I looked it up, I noticed how appropriately it can be used in many situations of my life. I will put it to good use right away!

(From Oxford English)

quote:
blithe |blīđ; blīθ|
adjective
showing a casual and cheerful indifference considered to be callous or improper : a blithe disregard for the rules of the road.
• happy or joyous : a blithe seaside comedy.

AS you can see, the most common usage is pejorative, with happy or joyous being a less common meaning. Clearly I intended the former.

Please do your research before making a joke out of yourself.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
I made no attempt to interpret or explain them. I'm sorry you found the words of our founders disturbing.

Some of their words I do find disturbing, because some of them had some very strange ideas. Others of them had good ideas. They were not Gods, and policy is not writ in their private correspondence, nor in their public remarks, no matter how much Republican ditto-head idiots would love it to be so, so that they could start combing these documents for justifications for any manner of things, ideologies, philosophies- I don't know when the subtext of the constitution became synonymous with its content, but I have found the BS rationalization of you and your ilk to be *the* most disturbing part of it.

And don't for a second try and imply that *I feel* bludgeoned by any of your quotes. I said you were using them as a bludgeon, and you are. You don't get away with complimenting yourself to me- I don't find your tactics effective, I find them offensive. I feel not in the least insecure about *anything* you've said in this entire thread. Don't for a moment in your weasely little way, imply that I have said otherwise.


I know you listen to Limbaugh, or someone who repeats all his garbage- you don't pull these idiotic jargon terms out of nowhere. Congratulations, you're throwing your lot in with a man who feels himself above basic research.

I really have nothing more to say. You began this entire thread with the suggestion that we start to pick out groups of people in our society to disenfranchise. Now you run back to "founding principles," which are conveniently located in the zázemi (meaning background) outside the constitution itself. I suppose you think a basic founding principle of our country is the limitation of voting rights to those who are born into the ruling class and culture?

You disgust me. Really, you do. I think you and people like you are the worst, most rotten part of our society- and I'd defend to the death your right to vote any way you choose. I know you wouldn't, because you believe in nothing but yourself. I hope you choke (just a little bit).

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malanthrop
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Thanks for the lengthy essay on how horrible America is. Move to Cuba if you like.

You're partially correct, illness and injury are the leading causes of bankrupcy. You confuse causation with symptom. A person gets hurt and cannot work all sorts of debts pile up. I'd pay my rent before my medical bills as well. Perhaps we should fix the other broken government programs, social security and medicare. I just moved my disabled neighbor who lost his home and filed for bankruptcy. He is in fact covered already by medicare and medicaid. The medical coverage is provided but he's been fighting for four years to get his social security benefits. The nearly automatic rejection and lengthy appeals process to get what he paid into all his life.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D979RK085&show_article=1&catnum=0

How many uninsured in this country have cable television, internet access, smoke cigarettes, buy beer, eat out, cell phones, or have heafty car payments. The beautiful thing about this country is you have a choice where you spend your money. YOU don't get to decide how someone else spends their money. If a wealthy person wants a nose job they are not wasting money that someone else could use for healthcare. It's that persons money to spend, not yours or the governments. I have children I care about and I'm a responsible citizen. If I took a pay cut, I would cancel my cell phones and have the tv and internet disconnected, this alone would pay for my insurance.

What is "cheaper" for you is not cheaper in reality. Just because the government pays for it does not make it cheaper. You want one person to pay for another.

Tort reform is definitely needed and would drive down costs. Doctors are fleeing due to malpractice insurance. The lawyers are making a killing but I doubt the government will do much about that, most politicians are lawyers and the lawyer lobbies are very powerful (especially among Democrats).

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/

The average American will work until April 13th to cover their taxes for the year. Only one more week to go. That's a significant portion of income that could go towards insurance.

Social Security, another great govt program. I could save or invest the same amount of money and have a much better retirement and assets I could leave for my children. I wouldn't end up in the same boat as my bankrupt neighbor, fighting to get his money. Bernad Madoff's ponzi scheme doesn't even come close the greatest pyramid scheme of all, Social Security.

Tout the benefits of socialized medicine all day long. Demonize our system if you like. We are the worlds medical innovators because we have a market system. You can postulate all you want about the benefits of this or that in your perfect socialized world. America is not about the group, rather the individual. We are not a socialist country. No system is perfect but history has proven our system is the best the world has ever known.

You may very well get your Marxist utopia. I hope not.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783

"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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beleaguered
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quote:
By Orincoro:
Please do your research before making a joke out of yourself.

Advanced Dictionary, Scott, Foresman Edition, Page 119, second collumn:
quote:
blithe (blITH, blIth), adj. 1 Happy and cheerful; gay; joyous. 2 heedless. [Old English blithe]
It seems as though two dictionaries disagree on this definition. I suppose the question now is which dictionary is more correct. Do you have the answer to this one, or should I start a new post so we can have another active meaningless debate? I'm willing to get a second or third opinion, but at the moment this is the dictionary at my disposal.

I appreciate your willingness to correct my inability to do research, though as you can see you jumped the gun with your agressive insult. Either people will think I'm a joke for using a particular definition of a word (perhaps not number one in all dictionaries), or they will appreciate how my comments directed them to learn something new about a word they already had been using.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
There's one very good reason they shouldn't apply here....The United States Constitution.
...

I don't suppose you could be more specific about what would be unconstitutional about *all* foreign government systems of health care?
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beleaguered
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quote:
by Orincoro:
You disgust me. Really, you do. I think you and people like you are the worst, most rotten part of our society- and I'd defend to the death your right to vote any way you choose. I know you wouldn't, because you believe in nothing but yourself. I hope you choke (just a little bit).

I know this isn't my discussion, but for an educated person, you sure do spit out a lot of uneducated hostility. I don't know why Malanthrop even bothers trying to discuss legitimate arguments with your hate and hostility.

I've grown to understand at a certain point of anger, no amount of reason will be understood. I think you've gotten to the point where you are beyond reason. I know you'll suggest it's the other way around, but I'm looking at both sides of this discussion, and he's kept a cool head and has fed you with the best information and facts he can find to prove his point. You only call him stupid, and say he doesn't know what he's talking about. I know you're intelligent, probably more intelligent than I am, yet you're possibly beyond reason here.

Have you noticed how few of the other liberals have stuck this fight out with you?

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
[QB] Thanks for the lengthy essay on how horrible America is. Move to Cuba if you like.

It's not an essay on how horrible America is. If that's all you can parse it down to, then you are either unable or uninterested in being able to challenge my viewpoint on its own merits.

quote:
You confuse causation with symptom.
quote:
How many uninsured in this country have cable television, internet access, smoke cigarettes, buy beer, eat out, cell phones, or have heafty car payments. The beautiful thing about this country is you have a choice where you spend your money. YOU don't get to decide how someone else spends their money.
You're right, I forgot that this is a representative democracy with taxation funding a communal public pool of money that can be spent for the benefit of other people. Silly oversight of mine, I'm sure.


quote:
What is "cheaper" for you is not cheaper in reality.
You have no idea what it means when we point out that our healthcare system costs two and a half times the industrialized world median, do you?

Yes, it is cheaper in reality. It's cheaper because the actuarial system we use is broken and monstrously wasteful. Each individual american pays thousands more wasted in bureaucratic overhead and paperwork per year than counterparts in other similar countries (i.e., all of them) with social systems.

quote:
Bernad Madoff's ponzi scheme doesn't even come close the greatest pyramid scheme of all, Social Security.
The way you are trying to segue this discussion to other stuff unrelated to the points I'm hammering you on, I'm becoming convinced that you are desperate to move away from your healthcare gaffe.

quote:
"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Way to repeat yourself unnecessarily. Might I note that Ben Franklin never said this?
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Samprimary
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And, getting its own post

quote:
No system is perfect but history has proven our system is the best the world has ever known.

You may very well get your Marxist utopia. I hope not.

The most important doctor in society, the most important doctor you will ever have, is the family doctor. The GP who knows your weight, your blood pressure, complains when you smoke, all of that. As has been noted, they make a decent salary but nothing special. They're in line with what European doctors make.

Until you factor in malpractice insurance, which has been increasing its rates about 20% a year for the past decade or more, while doctor salaries have not kept in line. On account of this, the take-home pay of these doctors most critically associated with health and well-being is going down. (http://www.gnyha.org/3283/File.aspx).

A perfect example of how disastrous this trend is is to look at New York City hospitals' malpractice insurance, which has gone up 147% in five years, to the point where they are shutting down obstetrics divisions.

The end result of all this is that doctors are being chased into lucrative sub-fields in order to maintain their lifestyle. They have bills to pay, but under our current system, doctors are not paid to make people well, they are paid to perform procedures. Even worse, they are only really paid for the procedures they didn't have to perform on people who cannot pay. Many doctors, to maximize their income, are learning to perform the most expensive procedures possible, and they are competing to get into fields where they don't have to do work that they won't get paid for.

If they paid doctors to make people well, you'd have a lot more GP's, who are the ones on the front lines actually doing this. Instead, the 'winners' in the current system are carving out transplant hearts and vacuuming out fat and stapling stomachs and crowding quickly into any and all available fields where you don't have to do shit for anyone who can't pay, and thus, are not forced to accept the poor people of society as a financial liability. Since medical professionals are all crowding these optional procedure fields as fast as possible, prices for these services are going down. It's not a demonstration of how uninfluenced competition is working to our benefit in some fields as much as it it is another hilarious symptom of a collapsing medical system.

Cosmetic surgeons and the like are the 'winners' of our current system. They do completely optional and expensive procedures, only for people who pay out of pocket, they are not forced to work through thieving bureaucratic intermediaries, they are not forced by financially 'unfortunate' policies to care for those who cannot pay, and despite being under the catchall term of a medical profession, they're a little different -- they are actually all but irrelevant to our general health. They cater only to those who have the excess wealth to spend on optional procedures.

The end result is that the government has already been forced to bribe doctors with taxpayer money to remain as essentially skeleton crews in necessary medical fields which HAVE to be staffed (city hospitals, etc) but nearly NO competent doctor would stay in business in if they were forced to rely upon the profit model. Just about every single top doc in places like North Dakota or Arkansas is essentially bribed by the government with huge amounts of supplemental income to not leave. It's another example of how we're trying inefficiently to sneak in socialized solutions to float the broken moral hazard model and still somehow pretend, for the benefit of people like you, that it's seaworthy of its own accord.

It's not.

It's not even 'innovative' in its own right for virtue of being a private model.

There's also another issue and it becomes evident when you ask seniors what form of healthcare they want. The big old socialized medical care program called Medicare, known alternately as being 'the most popular program in America' and 'the politically untouchable juggernaut.' Socialism, right here in the heart of the dear old U.S. because private medical care wouldn't touch the issue of care for the elderly.

Why? The elderly have the same sort of issue which leaves orphan diseasers to sit in a corner and die. There is no way to make taking care of old people profitable. Good thing that private insurers get to bypass the issue of maintenance of the elderly.

Thanks, Medicare, for being the big bad socialized medical program that makes 'private' health coverage remotely feasible! Please, feel free to continue defining it as a ponzi scheme.

All you can do is toss off a glib comment about my desire for a 'marxist utopia.' That I dare to disagree with the private system causes you to default to a childish strategy wherein you immediately equate my suggestions and my interpretations as a line-by-line support of comically irrelevant communist ideals. It's like a refuge for you. Sure, malanthrop. Way to take the conversation seriously.

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MrSquicky
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quote:
Originally posted by beleaguered:
I know this isn't my discussion

I don't see why not. You're one of the main contributors under your malanthrop handle. Heck, you started the thread.
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Orincoro
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quote:
I suppose the question now is which dictionary is more correct.
No. The question is what I meant. Considering that I meant the former definition in my dictionary and the latter in yours- I would say that you deliberately misinterpreted my use of the word in order to mock me- my use of the word was very clear in context, and you misread. It made you look stupid. Move on.

quote:
I appreciate your willingness to correct my inability to do research, though as you can see you jumped the gun with your agressive insult. Either people will think I'm a joke for using a particular definition of a word (perhaps not number one in all dictionaries), or they will appreciate how my comments directed them to learn something new about a word they already had been using.
No, people will think you're either lamely passive aggressive or lazy for failing to actually notice that the definition I was clearly using was included in the dictionary you consulted. If this had confused you, you would have checked another source to confirm- but instead you went with one definition when you were presented with two, and you chose the one that obviously didn't work. Now you're lamely attempting to make a lesson out of it. Lots of words have multiple definitions, and most people are able to figure out what words mean in context. Most people are certainly not willing to make a joke at their own expense about alternate definitions. Sorry- Fail.

PS. Get a better dictionary- mine is more respected than yours. (If you have a dictionary with a lot of single word synonym definitions, then you have an insufficient dictionary).

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beleaguered
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MrSquicky,

As I've said I don't know how many times before, I'm flattered you compare me with Malanthrop. He is more intelligent than I am, and his knowledge of politics in particular is much more researched than mine. I'm just another conservative in the room, but then again, I suppose all of us conservatives are the same- right? He and I have a similar voice on these topics, therefore we must be the same.

I'm certain anyone who is able to do any amount of research could discover we are very much different people. There is nothing to suggest we are the same person, other than our similar voice in this room. All the liberals in the room have a similar voice, does that mean they are the same person?

I probably should've just ignored your comment MrSquicky, since arguing wouldn't change anyone's formed opinion. If anyone is interested in my challenge to research for a few minutes, you'd discover we aren't the same. I doubt anyone who holds such an opinion is interested in the research that might change it. Think as you'd like, again- it's I see it as a compliment, though I suggest your accusation isn't fair to Malanthrop.

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malanthrop
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Orincoro,

I have no doubt you would defend my right to vote. The truth is, I actually did defend yours. For twelve years of active duty and many months in Iraq. If you ever had to call your wife in the middle of a work day to tell her, "bring my cloths and the kids. I can't tell you when I'll be back" you might have some understanding.

Sitting in the desert, listening to liberal Americans and American Politicians say we had lost the war, the war is over or a waste of human life; American troops are kicking in the doors of innocent people in the middle of the night or committing acts of torture. This tainted my perception of liberals, I'll admit. I see a lot of lip service for political gain. A political party that succeeds when America fails. Playing on the jealousy and divisions among our people for votes.

We heard these things and no amount of lip service about "we support the troops not the war" could make up for it.

People who complain about this country have absolutely no idea how good it really is. I've been in almost every third world shit hole there is and plenty of European nations as well. I'm quite sure the majority of the world would trade places with the poorest among us and probably not remain poor for long.

We are a spoiled and envious people. We look at our neighbor and hold them in contempt for having more. What's more, we look at other nations and want what they have on us. There's give and take and a cost for what they have. Even most Americans who want European style social programs would probably stay here if given a choice.

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beleaguered
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Orincoro,

Your tone of mockery is fun. Keep it up, it makes me laugh.

Most, if not all words have multiple definitions, they're fun like that. You chose one, I chose another. My definition was able to play with yours, and that was my intention.

Congratulations for owning a more respectible dictionary. You must be a more respectible person because of your superior dictionary.

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Rakeesh
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malanthrop,

quote:
There's one very good reason they shouldn't apply here....The United States Constitution.
Ha! This oughta be good. Please, explain why the Constitution prohibits European-style health-care systems.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by beleaguered:
Orincoro,

Your tone of mockery is fun. Keep it up, it makes me laugh.

I'm sure that it does.

You don't get to choose the definitions of the words I use. That's called poor reading comprehension- it's akin to kids on a playground "mishearing" the new kid's name, so that "John Hart," becomes "John Fart," or one of many variations. It's infantile. Not funny, not witty, not smart.

Again- Fail.


And of course by fun, I assume you mean:

quote:
• playful behavior or good humor : she's full of fun.
quote:
Respectible
This word is not in my dictionary... strange!
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by beleaguered:
Orincoro,

Your tone of mockery is fun. Keep it up, it makes me laugh.

Most, if not all words have multiple definitions, they're fun like that. You chose one, I chose another. My definition was able to play with yours, and that was my intention.

Congratulations for owning a more respectible dictionary. You must be a more respectible person because of your superior dictionary.

The problem with learning words from a dictionary rather than in the context of written or spoken word, is that there are subtle connotations of words which are rarely fully captured by the dictionary.

Blithe is precisely such a word. I have never seen it used in written or spoken language as other than a pejorative. It may mean "carefree and joyful" but always in a context in which being carefree and joyful is at least somewhat misplaced.

Please feel free to continue blithely using "blithe" and any other word you like to mean whatever you choose.

Just don't be surprised if you are misunderstood and misunderstand others.

[ April 03, 2009, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by beleaguered:
... I'm flattered you compare me with Malanthrop. He is more intelligent than I am, and his knowledge of politics in particular is much more researched than mine.

That definitely convinces me.
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