posted
The most obvious example of bias comes in the case of reading comprehension tests, which have been proven pretty definitively to test first and foremost a person's familiarity with the subject being discussed in the text, and only secondarily their ability to comprehend the text.
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quote:Finishing high school is the first step. White or not, you're a dropout I have no sympathy for you. You failed on your own accord.
There's plenty of hypothetical circumstances where failure in high school is more a matter of outside influences rather than the assured worth (or worthlessness) of the students who failed high school.
There's plenty of anecdotal circumstances where I've seen people end up having to drop out of high school due to capricious circumstances. Getting hit by drunk drivers halfway through senior year followed by a transfer, mental breakdown due to badly prescribed drugs that conflicted with misdiagnosed bipolar, inheriting a brother as a dependent when parents are killed, etc.
Am I to have no sympathy for any of them?
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quote:Rakeesh: Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but not noticing racism in one's daily affairs for months or years at a time is certainly significant when there are countries where it can be easily observed on a near constant basis.
You're right, it's just that what I was referring to are absolute statements.
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quote: They aren't slaves anymore, they do qualify for FHA and VA loans today. I'm quite sure my wife would leave me if I blamed my deficiencies on her past mistakes. If I continually reminded her of past trespasses and used it as a lever and excuse for current actions. Just my hack answer.
That is a hack answer, because whether or not your wife should just get over it doesn't release you in the slightest from your obligation to help her get over it.
quote:Does anyone take seriously the accusation that standardized tests are racially biased, high arrest rates are due to a racist legal system.
No one serious argues that disproportionate minority crime is due solely to a racist criminal justice system. On the other hand, no one worth listening to argues that racism is no longer a factor in our criminal justice system either.
quote:Current problems can be attributed to two things: high dropout rates, high illegitimacy rates. The odds of failure are even accross racial lines when you don't have a stable father figure.
Here's the real tricky question for you to either ignore or sidestep: why are these things disproportionate problems among minorities?
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quote:Here's the real tricky question for you to either ignore or sidestep: why are these things disproportionate problems among minorities?
Internal and external reasons. External such as economic and socials pressures. Internal such as a culture where the woman holds families together and men prove their worth by wandering and being untouchable.
What is the proportion of which? I don't know, but I am definitely not willing to accept that the huge number of fatherless families I saw in Detroit isn't the fault of the biological fathers who ran away from their children.
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At some point, you have stop blaming other people for your own actions. As hard as it is to be poor in a family, abandoning your children to a worse poverty without you isn't excusable.
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posted
But I'm not all that interested in placing blame here. And even if I were, vaguely waving my hand at a portion of a city would be pretty unfulfilling. I am, however, interested in figuring out why certain parents are statistically more likely to abandon their children and what we can do to mitigate those circumstances. I don't think that gesturing at economic forces and then looking to lay blame accomplishes that.
EDIT - It's not that there isn't a time and place to apportion moral responsibility, I just think that setting is at the individual level, and then only as necessary.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: At some point, you have stop blaming other people for your own actions. As hard as it is to be poor in a family, abandoning your children to a worse poverty without you isn't excusable.
But again, begging the question. You can hold individuals responsible as individuals- but when you apply that responsibility to an entire population or culture of people, you have to at least be curious as to *why* that culture is doing what it is doing. Racists would say that they are inherently not as good, genetically or spiritually, or whatever, as others. Realists and rationalists and other reasonable people will attempt to find the forces outside a culture (or in that culture's history, however far back it goes) that may have caused this greater trend.
And you don't have to go very far back at all in the black community to discover that they arrived en mass in this nation as slaves. Now, I'm inclined to believe that a group of people ripped out of their own societies and cultures on a faraway continent and put into tiny boats (many never to survive), subjected to endless generational humiliations and suffering, would have as its descendants a population of people who retain some social problems.
As James Baldwin put it: "All that hatred and misery and love. It's a wonder it doesn't blow the avenue apart." It's kind of a testament to the resiliency of people in general that we have a society in which our children now attend the same schools. You have never experienced it, nor have I, but slavery was not that long ago on the scale of a civilization- in fact it was breathtakingly recent.
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Of couse I have sympathy for someone who dropped out of high school after being injured by a drunk driver. If you want to use specific situations like this to make a general point, I could do the same. Condoleeza Rice. One person, genius, proves women and minorities have opportunity and can succeed.
I wouldn't side step the illegitimacy question. Any group of people who have an illegitimacy rate near 80% is going to suffer as a people. Just so I am clear, I believe there is no difference between races in terms of potential or intelligence. Men learn from their fathers how to be men. Abusive fathers create abusive sons. (I'm sure someone going to call me out for stereotyping so I'll say it now, not all abused become abusers) IMO govt intervention has contributed to the destruction of the family. An interesting study would be a comparison of the 20% non-illegitimate children to the non-illegitimate children of other races. The performance gap will certainly be diminished.
Political Correctness is also destructive. I believe millions of minorities are being neglected in schools in the name of political correctness. As a child teachers constantly corrected my grammer. Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."teeth, not teef","you are, not you be", "we are, not we be", etc. This goes beyond accent, this is willful neglect in the education of a child. There's a big difference between ignorant speech and accent. One of the most racist lies ever perpetrated on minorites is convincing them ignorance is culture.
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quote:Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."teeth, not teef","you are, not you be", "we are, not we be", etc.
Yeah, teachers don't do that *rolleyes*
And, of course, let's not forget that nowhere in the United States is perfect spoken English taught...or that there isn't such a thing. Once again, one of your own examples says more about you than you perhaps intended.
Quick! Throw the race-name-dropping-smoke-bomb!
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."teeth, not teef","you are, not you be", "we are, not we be", etc. This goes beyond accent, this is willful neglect in the education of a child. There's a big difference between ignorant speech and accent. One of the most racist lies ever perpetrated on minorites is convincing them ignorance is culture.
Are you honestly suggesting this? That teachers in the united states pretty much don't correct grammar for black kids, because they are black?
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posted
Speech class English class How about English as a Second Language A person's ability to communicate is key to success in this country.
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quote:Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."
My favorite response in class to students who wanted to "axe me something" was to ask "is violence really necessary?"
I was also prone to responding to "what's on the test?" with "ink".... and responding to "how long is the test?" with "11 inches... what's more, it's 8 and a half inches wide!"
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Speech class English class How about English as a Second Language A person's ability to communicate is key to success in this country.
Do you want to answer my question? If you think you are responding to my question with this, do you think you could try to respond in a less totally oblique fasion?
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."teeth, not teef","you are, not you be", "we are, not we be", etc. This goes beyond accent, this is willful neglect in the education of a child. There's a big difference between ignorant speech and accent. One of the most racist lies ever perpetrated on minorites is convincing them ignorance is culture.
Are you honestly suggesting this? That teachers in the united states pretty much don't correct grammar for black kids, because they are black?
Sorry, responded to Rakeesh first.
Isn't ebonics accepted as proper? I'm sure some do. Probably black teachers are more likely to do so. The PC fear of offense probably holds back a lot of white teachers. My daughters class is 3 to 1 black, and I've volunteered in that class. If the teacher consistently corrected the students in this manner, they probably wouldn't have time to cover the other subjects.
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Of course there isn't perfect spoken English. The British are not impressed with American English either. A person needs to at least be able to communicate effectively. Maybe its just my racist ear but there are some people I honestly have great difficulty understanding. I wouldn't hire this individual if it was in the job description to communicate with customers.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Isn't ebonics accepted as proper?
No, it is studied as a dialect. I'm adept at hawaiian pidgin because I studied it as a dialect; knowing it and contemplating the necessity of inclusion of urban or regional dialects into the accessibility of education is different than usurping grammar with relative 'properness.'
quote:I'm sure some do. Probably black teachers are more likely to do so.
Yeah, I'm sure some do. But this is a non-argument. I'm sure some people do lots of things. But as per your original assertion — "Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."teeth, not teef","you are, not you be", "we are, not we be", etc." —
the answer is emphatically yes, and this undercuts your point, such as it was, severely.
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quote:Isn't ebonics accepted as proper? I'm sure some do. Probably black teachers are more likely to do so. The PC fear of offense probably holds back a lot of white teachers. My daughters class is 3 to 1 black, and I've volunteered in that class. If the teacher consistently corrected the students in this manner, they probably wouldn't have time to cover the other subjects.
So which is it, then? Are teachers cringing in fear of the PC police or are they just choosing their battles?
Also, Sam raises a good point about Hawaiian pidgen. In certain parts of Hawaii, speaking proper English would be to the detriment of day-to-day conversation.
EDITED because the conversation moved while I was writing a response.
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posted
Strange, I'll ask my wife. She's a teacher in a school that is 60% black, 20% hispanic and 20% white.
You're correct, my original assertion was too broad. Using your logic I couldn't say "teachers are not pedophiles" because SOME are. You've used this tactic repeatedly and undercuts any communication and is a cop out for any attempt at an itillectual argument. Suprised you didn't respond by calling me a racist, or telling me you're not even going to waste your time talking about the issue.
posted
Everyone speaks differently in different situations. I swear around the guys but never at home. Teachers are both choosing their battles and afraid of PC issues. True, closing the achievement gap at all levels of education is a serious time taker. It's my contention the achievement gap is the fault of the parents. My daughter isn't near the top of her class because her white brain is superior. She comes home to parents who care about her education. The underachievement of the kids sitting next to her all day have nothing to do with the school or any form of discrimination.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: You're correct, my original assertion was too broad. Using your logic I couldn't say "teachers are not pedophiles" because SOME are. You've used this tactic repeatedly and undercuts any communication and is a cop out for any attempt at an itillectual argument. Suprised you didn't respond by calling me a racist, or telling me you're not even going to waste your time talking about the issue.
it 'undercuts your communication' to demonstrate openly that what you are saying is wrong, yes. That tends to happen.
And I don't know what you're talking about with the cross-comparison. You can absolutely say that teachers are not pedophiles because there is nothing inherent to the profession which necessarily dictates a requisite level of pedophilia.
response to rest of post: ummmmmmmm okkaayyy?
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quote:Finishing high school is the first step. White or not, you're a dropout I have no sympathy for you. You failed on your own accord.
There's plenty of hypothetical circumstances where failure in high school is more a matter of outside influences rather than the assured worth (or worthlessness) of the students who failed high school.
There's plenty of anecdotal circumstances where I've seen people end up having to drop out of high school due to capricious circumstances. Getting hit by drunk drivers halfway through senior year followed by a transfer, mental breakdown due to badly prescribed drugs that conflicted with misdiagnosed bipolar, inheriting a brother as a dependent when parents are killed, etc.
Am I to have no sympathy for any of them?
Here's an example. Your responses....hypothetical to undercut the argument. True, SOME people have been hit by cars and have dropped out and they deserve sympathy.
posted
So your argument is that there is something rotten within a given culture, and that culture is no longer being victimized in any way and should get over it?
What solution would you recommend, especially for helping any young children born into that culture?
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quote:Everyone speaks differently in different situations. I swear around the guys but never at home.
And this is massively different than speaking one dialect at home, and then being expected to learn a different one in school. Some kids in our country have to learn multiple sets of vocabulary and grammar in order to function. It isn't a coincidence that these kids have a more difficult time in school.
Anyway, off to bed. Night!
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posted
There are problems within groups but I wouldn't suggest they have a rotten culture. There's no way I would classify absent father figures as the culture only a learned problem that tends to repeat generation after generation.
I do not think it is productive to hold out every example of victimization that occurs. Individuals are still victimized but I do not believe it to be systemic. People of all groups are victimized by people of other groups, and it could have very little to do with racism. When a white is mugged by a minority it's not held up on the national stage as another example of minority predation on whites. (rightfully so, it's just a mugging) I've known white guys who were slammed against police cars and kicked repeatedly by cops but it isn't discriminatory, just a bad police officer. I've sat in restauraunts and watched other people served who came in after me and experienced lousy service. I'm white so when it happens to me, it's just lousy service. When it happens to a minority, sometimes it's interpreted as discrimination.
I went to a high school that was state champs year after year after year for decades. A culture of success. The victim mindset needs to be broken not amplified. If a person believes he is a loser he will be one. A parent tells his child he is stupid, the child will be stupid. A parent teaches a kid that he is a victim he will be a victim, real or percieved.
It is my hope that Obama can be the ultimate example for a people and change the victim mindset. I totally disagree with his politics but I liked the pride and sense of hope he brought to black people. What type of hope is it? Hope that he will provide for them or a sense of hope that anyone can succeed. I'm glad to see a different type of black leader. The Sharptons and Jacksons only reinforced the victim mentality every chance they got. True leaders are examples for a people.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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So much hostility in this thread! It seems, with very few exceptions this conversation is one vs the rest. I feel for you Malanthrop.
Earlier, I addressed a situation in Brazil as was explained by a native Brazilian. I was referring to Brazil's seemingly equal acceptance of different races. I didn't address their issues with body image, or their feelings towards Argentinians.
quote: By Fugu: No distinction made between those with different skin colors in Brazil? Definitely not. I was in Rio a few months back for a conference, and I witnessed several times derogatory remarks being made about groups of people based on the color of their skin.
My mistake, since you visited once and noticed several uses of derogatory remarks made towards a group of people based on their skin, that means the personal account of someone who spent her entire life there must not be true.
I just loved Orinoco's remark after Fugu's comment:
quote:But fuguuuuuu..... he heard about it from his sister in lawwwww.....
You're mean!
Because I quote a family member that makes me juvenile? Do you think you're better than me? A comment like that is only said to give one power over another. Are you staking territory here and otherwise stating you or your opinions are better than me and mine?
Rakeesh, I didn't understand this comment of yours and think it was directed towards someone else:
quote: I don't believe you, because I haven't heard in detail and repeatedly how multiracial your family is. You're doing it wrong. Race-name-drop, man!
If that was directed towards me, then please explain why addressing this petty stab of yours would benefit this conversation.
One comment I would like to address, and that's Lyrhawn's comment:
quote:I wouldn't be surprised if there was less race based anger or what have you than here. Brazil in particular among South American countries has been dealing with issues of race integration for a couple centuries longer than we have in America.
I believe time is a factor to their racial acceptance. I've lived in Europe for over a year, and have noticed their racial acceptance is far above ours as well. A person is recognized first by nationality, and then if necessary by the color of their skin.
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quote:Finishing high school is the first step. White or not, you're a dropout I have no sympathy for you. You failed on your own accord.
There's plenty of hypothetical circumstances where failure in high school is more a matter of outside influences rather than the assured worth (or worthlessness) of the students who failed high school.
There's plenty of anecdotal circumstances where I've seen people end up having to drop out of high school due to capricious circumstances. Getting hit by drunk drivers halfway through senior year followed by a transfer, mental breakdown due to badly prescribed drugs that conflicted with misdiagnosed bipolar, inheriting a brother as a dependent when parents are killed, etc.
Am I to have no sympathy for any of them?
Here's an example. Your responses....hypothetical to undercut the argument. True, SOME people have been hit by cars and have dropped out and they deserve sympathy.
see your pattern
um.
You're balking that I have a reliable method by which to point out the fallacy of your reasoning?
I mean, I can't help you there? They are your arguments, after all.
I am only holding you to account to your arguments as presented. If you presented them wrong and made them weak to that sort of 'undercutting,' then, that's your issue, mang.
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Tom, I believe in small ways, some have agreed with Mal. Wait, let me try to phrase this just right - In some of the responses given to Mal on his opinion, there has been some common understanding and acceptance, not a lot but some salt and peppered across the last 3 pages.
Would you agree with that? does that make sense?
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But don't worry, I'm sure that in Brazil it is only the President who sees skin color, not anybody else.
edit: and I bet the people I overheard making racist comments were the President in varying disguises. Instead of it being a problem there much like other places. Btw, I'm not saying Brazil isn't doing a better job at dealing with race than we are; I think it is doing a better job, actually. But to pretend race doesn't exist to people there is just not true.
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posted
You can find an example in any group to dispel the conversation. It would be impossible to discuss anything that includes more than one individual if any difference between the individuals could be used to nullify a statement. I could say, "The Jones family is nice" but you might respond, "that's not true their daughter is spoiled"
I could use your "reliable method", and deny slavery in the 1800's since some were free. I hear repeatedly how whites enslaved blacks, no "some whites" a long time ago enslaved blacks. 99% of American whites were not slave owners. Segregation was not even in the majority of states. What about white people who came to this country after slavery was abolished? It is particularly discriminatory to blame white people. Arabs were involved, and so were Africans. How about this one, whites freed the slaves who were completely powerless to free themselves. The bloodiest war in American history.
The republican party was founded for this purpose. Southern democrats were pro-slavery. Southern Dems were against desegregation. Abraham Lincold was assassinated three days after giving a speech calling for voting rights for blacks. How long did it take after that? The racist democrats didn't want to lose control, as soon as blacks were free to vote and desegregated, they found another means of control. Nanny state. Segregate them into housing projects and give them foodstamps. No better way to control a people, oppress them with compassion, loyal victim voters. The slave masters too, gave the slaves a roof and food. Not required to work in the fields just vote for me.
Has there been any improvement since the implementation of these programs. Lucy and the football and Charley Brown keeps kicking. They keep promising but have you ever noticed a good portion of successful blacks are conservative? Listen to the parties. Compare the words of Michael Steele to the words of Jesse Jackson. One offers hope, the other blame.
quote:Has there been any improvement since the implementation of these programs.
Since the late 1800s? Um. Yes.
By the way, dude, the more you talk, the more racist I think you actually are. I gave you a lot more benefit of the doubt before you started trying to explain your philosophy. The sad thing about this is that I think you genuinely believe you aren't racist, and have no idea how conflicted you are on the issue.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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According to the Oxford English Dictionary: "racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups"
Your misuse/abuse of the term racism is astounding. Has my philosophy indicated anything supporting the above defenition. You've called me racist for saying I don't care what a persons race is. You've called me racist for insisting that all people have equal abilities. Your inability to believe my statements speaks more about your own prejudice than you know.
1800's? - No, since the civil rights act was introduced by a republican in 1960 but blocked by dems until 1964. After that, Dems became the proponents of massive social welfare programs. Must have had a change of heart and changed from the segregators to the saviors.
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quote:1800's? - No, since the civil rights act was introduced by a republican in 1960 but blocked by dems until 1964. After that, Dems became the proponents of massive social welfare programs. Must have had a change of heart and changed from the segregators to the saviors.
Talk about ignoring context to support a point.
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Fugu, Blamed white people with blue eyes huh? . . . That sure seems like a racist remark to me. In fact I can't even argue with that, since I don't live in Brazil, and my sister is brown skinned with brown eyes. I appreciate your opinion they are more progressed than we seem to be. I'm not fighting to say we should move to Brazil because they know how to treat people of different races fairly, I was suggesting they deal more fairly than we do here, and the suggestion they have had more practice than we have makes sense to me.
Tom, how come you are doing the name blame thing here. I don't see any more racism in Mal than I see in all his accusers. How productive is it to call him or anyone in this forum a racist? I think all the relevence to this conversation is lost in hostility. The conversation is reduced to mindless name calling and bickering. What's the point?
Oh, and no, I'm not Mal, I'm just another conservative POV in the room. I don't know him any better than I know you, in fact I know you better than I know him- thanks to your contribution to my absurd memories post.
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posted
I think race relations have improved but there are those who gain and maintain polital power by keeping the anger alive. The solutions offered have established a strong voting base but have failed to sufficiently improve the lives of many blacks in America.
The biggest form of racial tension left is an almost irrational fear of offending a minority individual. I am conflicted in this, I'm sick of the accusations of racism. A lot of whites feel like they've been flogged enough for the sins of other white people. When I see a video or a story comes out about an episode of discrimination I am angry because one idiot just tore open a wound. One person set back everyone and reignited the fire. While the individual act is dispicable, it's still the act of one person. What sucks is there will always be those individuals and if they are held up for the nation as an example of white society, this thing will never heal.
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That's a real bullying tactic, to rule by fear. Nations have been using that tactic for centuries upon centuries. Hitler is the most prominent example, then there's Stalin. Just about every dictator uses fear to gain and retain power- look at Saddam! Iraq is a mess because of his fear tactics, and quite possibly the taliban was created because of it.
That last remark is speculation, since I really don't know why the Taliban was created, except to be used as another power who reins out of fear.
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I believe the Taliban came together against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Remember Rambo 3 (I think 3) they were the good guys. Funny how the world works. But some infidels are more infidel than others, then on to the moderate muslims once they run out of infidels. Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Would a teacher dare tell a black kid ...."ask, not ax"...."
My favorite response in class to students who wanted to "axe me something" was to ask "is violence really necessary?"
I was also prone to responding to "what's on the test?" with "ink".... and responding to "how long is the test?" with "11 inches... what's more, it's 8 and a half inches wide!"
When I was a librarian for an inner city school, we managed consistently correct pronunciation of "library"*. I was very proud.
*Except when they would deliberately say "liberry" just to tease me as my responses were usually amusing.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Some comments about race in Brazil, from my experiences living there for two years:
The idea that there is no racism or race distinction in Brazil is completely false.
That said, it's pretty different from what we see her in America. While there is definitely some racism and discrimination, there's really no such thing as "black culture" in Brazil. From the very beginning when they brought the first African slaves over to Brazil, there was a high degree of integration and intermarrying between the Europeans and Africans. The slaves and their descendants weren't segregated enough from the rest of society to form their own culture as happened here.
In America, one's race is determined by one's ancestry. You belong to the same race as your parents, or the mixture of their two different races. In Brazil, it's determined only by your phenotpye. You're considered black if and only if you look black. It doesn't matter whether your parents were black or not; after all, it's assumed that most Brazilians have African ancestry anyway.
For example, if Halle Berry were Brazilian, I don't think she'd be considered black.
I recall a Law & Order episode where an extremely fair-skinned black man lived his life "pretending" to be white. In Brazil, this wouldn't make sense at all.
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