quote:Originally posted by scifibum: ...there's a lot of specific history and memes that I probably don't fully get, but nobody seems to be holding that against me. (They do seem to have a habit of getting together IRL which would be hard for me in various ways but I'm happy to have a place to post a pic of my kid and have people go "cute" even if I still feel on the periphery of the circle.)
Heavens, you are one of the people who slide in so seamlessly that it's hard to remember you haven't been there forever. That's great.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Sam, that was an excellent post; summed up the process that Hatrack has been experiencing very nicely. The only quibble I have with it (which has actually been addressed in subsequent posts) is that Hatrack's moderation has always (at least since I joined in '99, anyway, and with some notable exceptions) been primarily community driven--a combination of leading by example and occasional admonition when a new member posted in ways that were outside of the forum's culture.
quote:Originally posted by saxon75: By the way, Matt, I'm still maintaining the archives of your Segreda game. Just thought you might like to know.
And if you were to ever want to pick back up with it, I'd love to play Buchek again. Man I loved that character.
And scifibum, I'll second what CT said; your presence there feels entirely right. It seems a little weird that you haven't been there for years, honestly (strange as I know that probably sounds).
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I know of at least one regular and well-respected member of the community that essentially stopped posting at Hatrack because Lisa and King of Men made discussions here too unpleasant.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:The only quibble I have with it (which has actually been addressed in subsequent posts) is that Hatrack's moderation has always (at least since I joined in '99, anyway, and with some notable exceptions) been primarily community driven--a combination of leading by example and occasional admonition when a new member posted in ways that were outside of the forum's culture.
Really I don't see how that does not fall into my theory of progression. Self-policing, leading by example and admonition, 'works until it does not.' If there's even a gradual change, the example set by the forum will begin to actually encourage what, before, it seemed to keep at bay.
Not to mention the decline caused by posters who are immune to either example or admonition and are allowed to hitch their tendrils to any discussion they choose to dominate.
Imagine if over the course of half a year, just three posters who acted like, say, Malanthrop appeared and remained consistent in their behavior. Greater forummes than Hatrack hath been slay'd by less, sire.
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quote:Imagine if over the course of half a year, just three posters who acted like, say, Malanthrop appeared and remained consistent in their behavior.
That's not that far off.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Hatrack has a different problem now than acute Malanthrop types. It can all be changed and course-corrected (easily!) but I have great doubt that it will and I think that you are seeing the emergence of Hatrack's new 'normal' on account of that fact.
I don't know if many people care what I think got you guys here or whether I have any right to make that kind of a lecture, but either way I do think it's a raw deal for all the good posters here. Forums are actually pretty serious business! They're communities. People hate to see their communities sour or break down. They often represent a lot of social investment to people.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Imagine if over the course of half a year, just three posters who acted like, say, Malanthrop appeared and remained consistent in their behavior.
That's not that far off.
Yep, that's about right.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: I don't know if many people care what I think got you guys here or whether I have any right to make that kind of a lecture, but either way I do think it's a raw deal for all the good posters here.
Sam, I think we're operating entirely on the same wavelength, here, probably based on very similar theories of forum development. I said my piece on this one a few years ago, though.
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People, lest you keep whining about individual bad apples, let me point out that individual bad apples do not matter. Every forum gets them. It's as inevitable as death. In the life of any forum there will be a period where people uninterested in the kind of conversation you want start butting their way in and -- consciously or not -- trying to transform the forum into their own image.
If the apples are of a certain sort, as Sam has noted, the only thing to prevent this is moderation. Note that I am not implying that these apples are necessarily bad enough; rather, even very decent apples can be detrimental to the health of the forum if they are apples of a specific sort. It is a moderator's job to find these people while they're still early blossoms and deal with them (in a variety of constructive ways, hopefully) before they bear fruit.
Calling out individual posters is just a way to slake your own resentments.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I was thinking about it a little bit, and I just wanted to say, I don't like it much when people compare Hatrack and Sakeriver, especially to talk about how much better Sakeriver is. As gratified as I am that so many people have taken part (and continue to take part) in the community there, Sakeriver is far from perfect. Not that I think anyone is suggesting so, I just felt the need to point out that we have had our problems there in the past, and I'm sure there will be more in the future. There have been a number of people who have left for one reason or another, some on good terms, some not. And a number of people have voiced their disapproval of the way I run things there, both privately and publicly. Some people like it there, some don't.
I also want to take this opportunity to reiterate the enormous personal respect and appreciation I have for Papa Moose.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tom: There's a reason they are called bad apples. Sometimes - when they are consistent in their nastiness, as pointed in their targets, and as relentless in their posting, they do matter.
Pop is one of the best people in the entire world, and the only reason that's at all qualified is because I haven't met everyone in the world yet.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Keep in mind that while you gesticulate towards the 'bad apples,' you in particular do not have a constructive response to them or even a large quantity of well-meaning posters. You're like a tinderbox. If you feel like flames have nicked you, you flare up and exacerbate everything.
Before lamenting the acts of others, you, of all people here, need to subject your own behavior to criticism. This is the honest truth.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Sometimes - when they are consistent in their nastiness, as pointed in their targets, and as relentless in their posting, they do matter.
This is where moderation comes in. If all of those things are true, you do no good whatsoever mentioning it yourself.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Wow, Samp, what a positive and sensible post. And it carries so much weight coming from you.
It is positive and it is sensible, and more importantly, it is true. You have a negative response to many things, including criticism. You often act worse than those you are criticising.
If we're talking about the health of forums, reactionary tinderboxes do not improve things with their criticism, whether or not they think they do or if they are justified in their callous insults because it is in 'response' to other bad apples.
It just makes them a 'bad apple' as well.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I just want to to mention, in regards to saxon's post, that I brought up sakeriver not to argue that it was better than hatrack, but solely to lament the loss of the posters who went there and never returned. Though I'm guessing you were referencing other posts that were more specifically discussing the merits of your forum. I should also say that since I haven't really been to your forum in a few years, I don't know how many old time posters don't post at either and just dropped off the face of the online world.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I've lurked a bit on Sakeriver, but find it intimidating how LONG all the threads are. I don't have time to read dozens and dozens of pages to catch up and there are very few new threads ever posted.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: The threads in Sake are not for catching up on. They're for entering at the end.
Megathreads are awesome. They act like particulate filters for degrees of posting. Twitterposts in here, essays in there, lost discussions in there, thanks
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't like the long threads either. I find the topic too general and most of the time I skip over them. A catchy thread title is a good way to get me to read something. Noticing the Ronoff thread is on page 165 isn't.
However everyone else seems to like it so who am I to complain?
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I don't like the long threads either. I find the topic too general and most of the time I skip over them. A catchy thread title is a good way to get me to read something. Noticing the Ronoff thread is on page 165 isn't.
However everyone else seems to like it so who am I to complain?
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
It's just a different approach to foruming, and in large part is a reflection of the smaller, more personal nature of sake; the core eternal threads are ongoing conversations about our lives. In a larger forum where there wasn't as much emphasis on knowing each other as people I don't think that they'd work as well.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Another thing newbies on Sake might not notice at first -- especially if they haven't registered -- is the awesome utility of the "New" button. Once you've registered, the "New" button takes you to the first unread post on the associated thread, and only appears if there are new posts. In conjunction with the summary screen that shows the newest posts over the last few minutes, this is a far more efficient way to browse the forum.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:We had always been a "self-policing" forum with the "cool heads" calmly and rationally overwhelming the hot heads until they either fell in line or left.
It is impossible to overstate the importance of a frequently active moderator in this endeavor. The reason the whole "Leto" flap mattered is that it helped to break the bond between the forum regulars and the mods. In particular, it made the mods of the time dread dropping by, and it made some of the regulars doubt their impartial wisdom.
No public forum can survive that.
I had decided to stop posting here, actually, but I would like to hear what this leto incident was. It's starting to sound like a noodle incident, so could you either refresh my memory or clue me in if I missed this entirely?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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And if you've read everything you're interested in and want to declutter the screen, clicking the "mark as read" button will remove all remaining "new" indicators.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I don't read the RPG's everyday, so leaving said indicators really helps when I want to catch-up.
Posts: 496 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I'm really sorry Kwea found Sakeriver cliquey.
I'm not. The reason Sake often feels "better" than Hatrack is directly related to its cliquishness.
quote:I think that's a direct result of King of Men.
No. In fact, I believe that anyone who says this sort of thing doesn't understand forum dynamics. It's no one poster; it's no batch of posters. It has very little to do with individual members at all.
Only if you are part of the clique, Tom. And you don't mind marginilizing those who aren't. It's OK, I haven't missed it much. I had enough of the politics of peer pressure and exclusion in Jr. High.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I don't know how you people do it. For a bit of time a while back I was posting on hatrack, sakeriver, and grenme, and it was just too much forum to keep track of. Where do you find the time?
It's not that I don't like those other forums, I just realized my mental capacity for foruming is 1.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kwea: I'm outside the clique and they still tolerate me over there. You don't HAVE to be on the inside. It's an enjoyable forum without hatrack drama.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I've been on the outside of cliques looking in my whole life. People talk about them as if they're a junior high thing and for a while, I thought they may be right, but then I realized that the cliques were the same, the alienation had simply changed to more subtle snubbing.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I'd appreciate that if someone wishes to tell Orincoro about what he's asking, that they do it off board.
Sorry for my poor attendance over the past few days -- a number of things conspired to give me little to no time. Thank you for the kind comments from those who made them.
Metathreads like this serve a purpose, so I don't want to shut it down. However, it'd be simpler not to have to worry about that if people would avoid personal attacks in their comments, or even mentioning individuals as opposed to trends. Of course, if a demographic mentioned only includes one Hatracker, well, then what can one do. Please be kind.
Things have changed, and things get frustrating. Just because someone says something incorrect does not mean he is a liar. He could be misinformed, or misremembering, or disagreeing with a stated or unstated premise (not an exhaustive list). The word liar implies intent, and I don't think another's intent can be assessed as easily as some others seem to think it can. Of course, some may disagree. Whatever.
I do think the "discuss with passion, listen with respect" has lost most of the second half in most cases. It saddens me.
I've been less active as a poster since I became mod. I don't know if it's avoidable on a forum this size, at least given my personality. I tried to have Moose and Janitor be clearly separate in their actions, but I never got the feeling that people bought into that, so I became reticent to post any opinion lest it seem to have official weight.
I also invariably wait too long to step into situations, because I want people to be able to work through things instead of simply avoiding topics. It's like seeing a cocktail waitress start to lose balance of a tray of drinks -- if you try to save the one that's gonna fall, you risk dunping the entire tray. So sometimes I let the one glass fall.
I continue to think Hatrack is populated with wonderful, well-meaning people, many of whom disagree with me on a number of topics. I've never had a problem with someone disagreeing with me, unless it's as fundamental as someone wishing to hit me and me wishing for him not to. And that goes all the way back to junior high, which hardly counts.
I wish more people could disagree without the levels of animosity they show. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.
Anyway, please keep personal attacks elsewhere (off Hatrack, or non-existent might be better).
posted
It wasn't a clique issue, Pix, although obviously Kwea will disagree. He and Mike have very different posting styles and had a clash that stemmed from a misunderstanding. Some ego got involved and Kwea left. I'm being purposefully vague, because while I do have an interpretation of where the misunderstanding happened there's no real point in hashing through all of it. I bring it up solely because, while I'm not saying Kwea was entirely in the wrong, I think his characterization of what happened is unfair and I want that on the record. He'll say that I think that because I'm part of the clique, of course.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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That's fine if it works for you. It didn't for me, as much for how I saw a few other people treated as for any specific personal reason.
I still hold a large number of specific posters in high regard, and I agree with what Mike said....sake is completely different than Hatrack, despite having a lot of people bleed over from here.
I don't want to post somewhere I am merely tolerated. I am OK if SOME people merely tolerate me (lol) , because that's probably all I do with them too, but if I don;t feel welcome I won't stay.
Listen....I am not bagging on sake, or not trying to, just pointing out that not everyone loved it. I think Mike has created a unique site, and some people love it.
But it's no Hatrack, nor does it try to be. It is it's own thing, one I didn't care for much.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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LOL..I posted my LAST post BEFORE I saw ElJay's post. I won't go into details, and I'd appreciate it if other people won't as well.
I was a lot more open about some personal things there, and it made me feel a little more vunerable when some issues cropped up over there. There were a FEW things that happened to make me feel not welcome over there. It wasn't just the event ElJay referred to, htat was just the final episode.
And I think I am being very fair about sake being a decent place, just not one I felt welcome in.
As far as ego being involved....if someone calls you a liar when you have been completely honest, why bother continuing to engage in conversation with them? I walked away and haven't been back, just as I said I would, and I don't regret it. I don't call that ego, and I consider THAT to be an unfair representation of what happened.
I have nothing further to add, and personally wish even this much had not been brought up.
I think sake is a decent place, although it wasn't for me, and I hope Mike's site continues to prosper. There are a lot of good people over there, and I still correspond with a lot of them one on one.
ElJay, you ARE one of the clique...lol...but you didn't make me feel uncomfortable there. I am sorry if you thought I was trying to be unfair or cast a poor light on people you care about. I wasn't....I was just trying to say that not everyone felt welcome over there.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
BTW, I've been expecting this part of the Hatrack cycle (the self-reflection part) to happen for a while. It gives me hope, as it is one of the more unique things about these forums compared to others I've read.
Kwea, you need to lurk at sakeriver, if only to check out photos of my cute 14-month-old!
posted
LOL....I should, I guess. Or you could send me a linky. I'd LOVE to see them!
I can't just lurk, I kept wanting to post back. I stopped lurking there right after I left, although Joe tried to drag me back a few times now. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm very new to Hatrack, and for a very short while was on Ornery under a different name. I'm also very new to internet forums. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I am officially a fuddy-duddy (I'm 49).
I have a few rules of thumb I live by. I don't argue for the sake of arguing. If I think someone has a chance of teaching me something, or I have a chance of teaching them something, I like to exchange ideas. If not, don't bother arguing.
I never argue articles of faith. Unfortunately today articles of faith include issues like taxation, global warming, political candidates, etc.
I don't deal with name callers. Any political discussion which devolves into people throwing around terms I started to see in every Ornery thread ("democraps" and "repugnicans" for example). I believe a verse in the Bible says that if a jackass brays at you, don't bray back. I'm officially a type of atheist, but taking that into my heart has certainly saved me an enormous amount of aggravation.
I've also been a restrained by the fact that I've seen numerous people have their internet ramblings come back to haunt them. When I mentioned to my favorite editor that I was posting in an internet forum he grimaced, and recounted some recent cases where editors and publishers and writers have let slip in a forum some term or opinion or careless word which others have seized on to conduct campaigns against them: "He said this! He thinks this! He laughed at this!"
Crud.
I'm not sure exactly what I was looking for when I joined Ornery (I quickly left). I'm not sure what I was looking for here. And I'm not sure exactly how long I'll stay. Sometimes it's a lot of fun, and I sense some very good people out there. Other times.....
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
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This isn't the first time hatrack has had a "self-reflection thread", they come in waves, as hatrack flows in waves.
I do hope that general demeanor of posting at Hatrack becomes more agreeable again. Then again, maybe I only find myself opening volatile threads. Fluff is underrated.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Papa Janitor: I wish more people could disagree without the levels of animosity they show. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.
You don't have to wish for much, you know. You can just do. With relatively minor alterations in your moderation style you can end this current animosity peak.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Glad to hear the Segreda campaign is still in an archive somewhere. I've been thinking a lot about it lately. It was supposed to go to a new place, beyond the Tall Grass... and I'm now thinking about writing a novel set entirely beyond the Tall Grass.
Maybe I'll take some folks there... after my wedding, though.
Orincoro, you don't really need details - and quite frankly, they're not even interesting enough for me to remember very clearly. I think my previous post gave all the salient info. It's one of those things where people were really mad, and now it all seems so silly.
But even before then, we had "bad seed" posters... far worse than anything I've seen recently... and they either got banned, or shunned by other posters until they got frustrated/bored and left.
It's not any given person or people, it's the "shrill default" that Sam mentioned - at least in large part.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: But even before then, we had "bad seed" posters... far worse than anything I've seen recently... and they either got banned, or shunned by other posters until they got frustrated/bored and left.
And yet we're always here, lurking in the shadows...
quote:Originally posted by Papa Janitor: I wish more people could disagree without the levels of animosity they show. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.
You don't have to wish for much, you know. You can just do. With relatively minor alterations in your moderation style you can end this current animosity peak.
I don't know; even "relatively minor alterations" can cause a round of "but you didn't step in when she said" and "you're not going to get away with that under the new standard" and what have you.
I know I'm probably not posting as much as I used to. Mostly I'm staying out of threads that get into anything much more contentious than movies, music, video games, computer builds, and the like. A couple of times I've had to take a cue from Lincoln: write the message, take a deep breath, and don't send it.
I'm taking omeprazole (an acid reducer) these days. I'm not saying Hatrack was the cause, but...
It is a pity that there often doesn't seem to be as much to be gained by joining a passionate discussion lately. It frequently seems like rather than coming away with a deeper understanding of all sides you're more likely to come away feeling like many participants are (pick one or more) intractable, hypersensitive, malicious, a short hop away from making issues personal, vindictive, or more interested in provoking a response than actually participating in a discussion.
I think my own head has cooled off a lot in my time with Hatrack, so that's probably for the better. 'Twould be sad if the result was feeling out of place here.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Hi All -- Lurker checking in. It's kinda reassuring to see that some things never change, including the inevitable "what happened to Hatrack?" around this community.
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