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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » What's happened to Hatrack! (Page 8)

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Author Topic: What's happened to Hatrack!
Kwea
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I remember Pat, BTW. [Big Grin]
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Jon Boy
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Well, you know, according to some people, I am Pat. [Wink]
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Strider
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I thought you were Thor and Pat was cedrios? Or are you all David Bowles? I forget.
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katharina
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I don't know Jon Boy's motivations, but it must be something personally rewarding, because it is doing nothing good or effective over here and it never has.
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Scott R
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Pat sucks.
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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by Pat:
I seriously wonder why Scott even bothers with this forum anymore. So vitriolic. So hateful. So completely intolerant.

quote:
Originally posted by DaisyMae:

I originally came here to share myself and to learn. The response I get is "We don't want you and if you don't already know everything about this topic you have no right posting."

I've found myself thinking several times, "For a bunch of smart people, they sure are dumb." (This thought, of course, is not all-inclusive toward all posters.)

Are we on the same message board? Several people here seem to be getting seriously worked up over what, from my perspective, are pretty limited problems.

If you know you have a problem with someone, don't interact with them. Don't insult them and refuse to discuss with them on an adult level, while pretending to be taking the higher ground, just ignore them. If you can do that, most of the annoyance goes away. If you can't, then you're part of the problem too.

Sure, there are a few people who have a tendency to get hot under the collar very quickly. Other than that, everyone has a bad day now and again, but I certainly don't see the whole place on a downward spiral into becoming a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

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Xavier
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quote:
I don't know Jon Boy's motivations, but it must be something personally rewarding, because it is doing nothing good or effective over here and it never has.
So because JonBoy's advice to be less nasty has no effect on you, he must enjoy giving it?
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FlyingCow
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Mighty, I've been ignoring more and more people lately - basically to the point that I'm ignoring entire threads, because I know a certain group of people will gravitate toward them.

Threads on abortion? Forget it. Religion? No way. Israel? Right out. Politics? Not worth the headache.

And these are threads that I would regularly frequent in years past - that I now wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, based on the philosophy you outlined.

What ends up happening if everyone does this is that the calm heads become quiet, and the vitriolic ones continue on their merry way. In this way, the rational voices become marginalized and the tone of the board becomes more polarized.

It's why we have ended up with a metathread discussing it.

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katharina
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[Removed personal attack. Take it elsewhere. --PJ]

[ June 23, 2009, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]

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FlyingCow
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quote:
Mighty, I've been ignoring more and more people lately
In fact, I'm ignoring people as we speak...
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Pat
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Wow kat... Wow.
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Papa Janitor
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*sigh*

Kat, you're out of line. Both to MrSquicky and to Jon Boy. I hope you don't think I get any sort of joy saying that.

[Not just to kat:] As has been mentioned many a time over the years, we are, to a degree, a self-policing/moderating forum. Therefore, while there may be some disagreement as to effectiveness of various methods, calling into question someone's behavior on the forum isn't in all cases out of place. More people are affected than just those posing the question and those to whom it is made. There is an entire culture here that can be swayed one way or another both through seeing what actions are considered inappropriate at least by some, and which may be (often erroneously, IMO, but YMMV) assumed acceptable because they go without comment.

Again, in many/most cases I don't think this is something that needs to be handled specifically through moderation, but rather through people simply acting/interacting more moderately. As has been mentioned by many, there seems to be (in general) more and more a gap between sides of any given issue, and more moderate voices often get lost in the shuffle.

I made a mistake in another thread (far from my only mistake, but this one was recent). I posted as Papa Moose in a thread because I hoped moderator action wasn't necessary, but wanted the person who whistled to know I wasn't unaware. I'm sorry for that. If I want to keep Moose and Janitor separate, I need to do it. I'll try to do better at that.

I don't want to be heavy-handed. It's not really me. But maybe for a while I'm going to have to be, because the community at Hatrack has gotten off course somewhere. I'm not talking saccharine-sweetness, as has been intimated in other places -- I'm talking simple civility.

Nobody else is responsible for your actions. Stop blaming them.

You don't know what someone else's motivation is. Go ahead and think you do, but maybe refrain from accusing them of things you don't know.

If someone else goes "over the line," that's not license for you to do the same.

To quote someone from long ago, who may remember saying it: "No personal attacks at Hatrack."

I think I'm also going to be more willing at this point to delete rather than lock threads. I know people don't like having their words erased, especially when they don't consider themselves part of the reason for the deletion. I will try to remember to save a copy of any given thread before I delete it, and I apologize in advance for those who feel unfairly treated if/when it happens.

I won't lock or delete this thread, at least not yet. But please dial it back down.

--PJ

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Pat
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Ummm... Moose... you forgot to mention Scott R in your post. He consistently says I 'suck.' I think you should ban him.

No offense, Scott R.

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ElJay
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Papa, if I may ask, you used to edit people's posts when there was only one or two inappropriate posts in a thread. I understand that's not feisable when the entire thread has gone off track, but I hope you still consider that part of your moderator toolbox. I think removing personal attacks from a thread really helps both with keeping things civil and showing people that they are not allowed, much more so than locking the whole thread does.

</meddlingkids>

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Papa Janitor
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Yeah -- gets tougher after it's been quoted a couple/few times, but if I'm around early enough I can probably still do that. Thanks for the reminder.
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ElJay
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You're welcome.

Also, everyone please note the above and remember not to quote personal attacks. Whistle them instead.

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Kwea
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LOL (at the end of ElJay's post, not at anything else)

Papa, I think you do a decent job of it, and I hope things don't get so nasty here that you walk away from it. I k now that I would be tempted to if I were you sometimes (not that you implied anything of the sort).

If anyone wants to see what has happened to Hatrack over the past 2 years, read this thread from beginning to end. It is a perfect example.

Not that I am saying anyone IN this thread CAUSED the last few years, mind you.

Some of the best people on Hatrack don't post here often, or at all, because of bulls**** like this, and that is a shame.

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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by FlyingCow:
In fact, I'm ignoring people as we speak...

Same here [Smile]

I suppose you do have a point. I tend to ignore a lot of the high-drama thread topics, or at least often end up is sort of a meta-thread within the main thread, discussing with one or two people while trying real hard to ignore several people who are simply tossing insults or behaving quite badly.

I do wish they'd mellow out, but I don't see it happening. The policy of ignoring bad behavior and whistling it ought to work, if we all stood by it, but of course, it's very tempting to tell people off when they insult you.

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Sterling
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Thanks for looking out for us, PJ.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Sterling:
Thanks for looking out for us, PJ.

Amen. You do great work, Pop. Sorry you're having to do so much of it lately.
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Dobbie
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
[Removed personal attack. Take it elsewhere. --PJ]

To tell you the truth, this seems more odd than out of line.
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The Rabbit
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Thanks Papa!!
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ketchupqueen
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quote:
I do wish they'd mellow out, but I don't see it happening. The policy of ignoring bad behavior and whistling it ought to work, if we all stood by it, but of course, it's very tempting to tell people off when they insult you.
I find it even harder when they insult people I care about.

quote:
Thanks for looking out for us, PJ.
quote:

You do great work, Pop. Sorry you're having to do so much of it lately

quote:

Thanks Papa!!!

Add me to the list, consider the sentiment fourthed. [Smile]
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katharina
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Sorry, Pop. I'll put it in an email.
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Tresopax
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quote:
Not that I am saying anyone IN this thread CAUSED the last few years, mind you.

Some of the best people on Hatrack don't post here often, or at all, because of bulls**** like this, and that is a shame.

Everyone in this thread has caused the last few years - including those of us who have posted frequently and those who haven't.
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FlyingCow
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quote:
Everyone in this thread has caused the last few years - including those of us who have posted frequently and those who haven't.
Yes... but some to a greater degree than others.

[Smile]

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Scott R
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quote:
Are we on the same message board? Several people here seem to be getting seriously worked up over what, from my perspective, are pretty limited problems.
Well-- we're reading the same words, maybe, but obviously the interpretation is different.

The rest of your advice is sound, MC, and it's something I need to be reminded of.

That said, the atmosphere at Hatrack has gotten more hostile than I remember from a couple years ago. It's not just a couple problem posters, I don't think; it's a general attitude that is perhaps exacerbated by a small minority of hard nosed individuals.

The effect, for me, is to be less inclined to engage the community in the way I was used to. I'm not talking about touchy-feely, warm fuzzies threads; I'm talking about being willing to engage in ANY dialog at all.

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Jenny Gardener
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I'm just not interested in conversations that devolve into petulance and hurtful attacks.

I am terribly interested in intelligent exchanges in which people "speak with passion and listen with respect". I consider many people I met on Hatrack to be friends, mentors, and personal heroes. Even if I disagree with particular opinions, I cannot help respecting the people who share them with integrity, insight, and intelligence. That's what I remember of Hatrack, and it's truly a sad day when most of those people don't feel good about participating in the life of this community.

Mighty Cow has mentioned the means by which annoying or unacceptable behavior used to be dealt with...by private whistling and an absolute refusal to engage in rude or disrespectful exchanges. In this fashion, I saw many an initially obnoxious poster grow into someone I could respect and enjoy. It's like dealing with a naughty child...if the bad behaviors aren't getting attention, he'll have to try something else to get what he wants. And what is rewarded is what the child learns is acceptable to do.

Why not show your appreciation for those posters you enjoy interacting with, even when you disagree with them? Give credit for what you agree with before making your points. Build on what you appreciate someone saying. It makes for a stronger and better community. And my thanks and love to those of you who already do these things!

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:
Not that I am saying anyone IN this thread CAUSED the last few years, mind you.

Some of the best people on Hatrack don't post here often, or at all, because of bulls**** like this, and that is a shame.

Everyone in this thread has caused the last few years - including those of us who have posted frequently and those who haven't.
I disagree. I refuse to be responsible for other people's comments, attitudes or beliefs. You want to make a case for ME being rude, fine, but I don't think that is where you are going with that comment.

Plus, I behave myself much better these days. [Wink]

[ June 24, 2009, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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Pat
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quote:
Why not show your appreciation for those posters you enjoy interacting with, even when you disagree with them? Give credit for what you agree with before making your points. Build on what you appreciate someone saying. It makes for a stronger and better community. And my thanks and love to those of you who already do these things!
Remember, it's thanks at Hatrack, but I love you at home.


www.dontsayiloveyou.com

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Pat
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I killed this thread!

[The Wave]

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Kwea
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[Hat] Some things never change. [Wink]
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advice for robots
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Pat doesn't kill threads. I do.
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The Rabbit
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[Confused] No, it this thread can't be dead. Please. It was such a fine thread and it was only eight pages long. I can't believe it's really dead.

[Cry] I weep for the death of this fine thread. Why, why, why did you have to kill it.


MURDERERS!! [Mad]

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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
[Cry] I weep for the death of this fine thread. Why, why, why did you have to kill it.


MURDERERS!! [Mad]

The only sure way to bring it back to life is more drama.

I dislike the emoticons you post with, and I suspect you smell strongly of cheese and pickles! [Evil Laugh]

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The Rabbit
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[Roll Eyes]

The emoticons I use are infinitely superior to the emoticons you use, without any possible exception. [Taunt]

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kmbboots
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I tend to smell of pickles. I have a secondhand dresser and I swear somebody at some time spilled pickle juice in one of the drawers and I cannot get the smell out.

I eat a lot of cheese. I may smell of that, too.

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scifibum
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Stop! There are several things wrong with me wanting to take an actual bite out of kmbboots.
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kmbboots
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Hehe. Today I am not wearing anything from the pickly drawer and have not had any cheese.

I probably smell like vanilla and lime and coconut.

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scifibum
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*cries*
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kmbboots
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[Big Grin]
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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
[Roll Eyes]

The emoticons I use are infinitely superior to the emoticons you use, without any possible exception. [Taunt]

I take exception to that! [Sleep] [Cool]
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
[Roll Eyes]

The emoticons I use are infinitely superior to the emoticons you use, without any possible exception. [Taunt]

I take exception to that! [Sleep] [Cool]
[Wall Bash] I'm sorry but that is not possible. [No No] Please read more carefully in the future.
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MightyCow
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
[Roll Eyes]

The emoticons I use are infinitely superior to the emoticons you use, without any possible exception. [Taunt]

I take exception to that! [Sleep] [Cool]
[Wall Bash] I'm sorry but that is not possible. [No No] Please read more carefully in the future.
[Embarrassed] [Mad]
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ricree101
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I will say this, though. As bad as the tone gets here at times, the 200 years of..." thread does illustrate how much better the worst of Hatrack is compared to many other places online.

[ June 26, 2009, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: ricree101 ]

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rivka
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Too true.
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Frisco
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We just need to play an endless loop of "Everyday People" on the site.

Would make it really hard to be disagreeable without at least feeling a little guilty about it. [Big Grin]

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FlyingCow
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Actually, the 200 years thread is giving a good "outsider" illustration of what so many posters on hatrack have started to sound like, to me.

"Vaccines are teh bad" is his religion, just like certain political ideologies or positions have become the religion of many posters here (not to mention actual religious arguments). It stops being about debate and discourse, but more about belief and a fight against unbelievers.

No matter how much evidence is brought to bear, I don't think the poster on the 200 years thread will ever even consider re-analyzing his position, let alone changing it. And hatrack posters are often more content to poke fun and mock rather than engage to begin with.

It only seems bad because most (nearly all) posters on hatrack can see that his position is untenable. But there are many positions taken at hatrack where *both sides* feel the same about their opponent, and devolve to mocking or attacking because they feel their own arguments are sacrosanct.

You say it shows how much better we are compared to other places, and I say it illustrates very clearly problems we have within our own community. Remove the plank from our own eye, and whatnot.

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Samprimary
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The way spambuster handled himself was such that it is nearly impossible to expect a 'better' response to someone when they introduce themselves to a forum the way they did. This is exactly when things like eye-rolling are warranted.

If a completely hostile, ill-mannered fly-by-night subject nuker shows up on a forum and opens his act with a salvo of hostilities and hypocritical accusations, what is wrong with some posters saying stuff like "ugh, go away?"

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FlyingCow
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The problem is the same treatment has been given to members of the hatrack community in many threads... and that many members of the community behave as spambuster does when their own belief system is questioned.

I don't see anything in spambuster's reactions that I haven't seen from other posters on this very forum, and I didn't see anything in the hatracker reactions to spambuster that I haven't seen directed toward other hatrackers.

The concept that he somehow "was asking for it" isn't really defensible... as the same rationale can be applied between members of the community.

The "better" response is the one advocated repeatedly in this very thread - to ignore the trollish behavior entirely and not respond.

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