posted
During the holiday season, in a religiously free country, the individual should be able to say whatever his faith (or lack of) dictates. Christians understand there are other holidays in the season and if a Jewish cashier said happy Hanukkah it would be a welcome acknowledgement of the season, and likely a bonding experience for a diverse nation.
The argument is being attacked from the wrong angle. The cashiers should have the right to express their holiday spirit in the traditional greating of their choice. Christians are upset at company policy banning the expression of the season that is as old as the nation. This business isn't far from being told you cannot wear a cross. (of course pagan symbols would be allowed) Where's the ACLU defending the cashier's rights.
I'm considering doing a test. Everyone remember the Piss Christ "art"? What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed? (no different that the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish)
It's ok to attack Christians, even at Hatrack. For some reason, attacking Christianity is not intolerance.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Yeah. And there is something not quite right about that.
I disagree. It is simply that 70% of the work force would take it off, so they close down.
There is also a difference between acknowledging the debt this country owes to a religion and advocating it above all others. While I found that site to be pompous and completely worthless, I have no issue at all with it being a national holiday.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:I was more commenting on your reference to the pledge of allegiance.
When the government, or institutions under the supervision of the government, require religious acknowledgment then it isn't a small issue. (Note the key word: require.)
Why should that be any bigger of an issue to you than a Christian getting upset when a U.S. employed mailman fails to say "Merry Christmas" at Christmastime? Is someone getting hurt? Is there some realistic likelihood that allowing such a thing would lead to slippery slope in which people did end up getting hurt?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: ... What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed? (no different that the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish)
I think I would fully support this.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Christians are upset at company policy banning the expression of the season that is as old as the nation.
Not exactly true. The Puritans did not celebrate Christmas. In fact it was illegal in Boston for a time. During the Revolution and after, it was considered an English holiday or a German one. Only fringe groups like Catholics celebrated. Even after that it wasn't really popular as a holiday until the nineteenth century.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed?
Here in the US? Depending on where you lived, either nothing would happen, you'd be verbally reprimanded (possibly very rudely) or you might be assaulted or have your vehicle vandalized.
Pretty much the same thing that would happen if you had a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on Jesus.
Atheists are much better behaved. Put on a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on nothing and they won't care at all. Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Yes but how would they respond to a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on "Origin of the Species"?
Eye rolling, probably. A similar response to what you'd get on a sighting of the Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. (mal mistakenly suggested the reverse was the typical formulation. I've never actually seeing a variant where the Darwin fish is doing the eating. The Darwin fish alone was the response to the Jesus fish. Jesus fish eating Darwin fish was the Jesus fish people's response to that. Google it yourself to see the typical form.)
Famed "militant atheist" PZ Meyers made sure to include pages from the Quran and Origin when he made a show of desecrating a communion wafer a while back. The atheist response to the stunt was a mix of "atta boy" and "what a tool" but no one really complained about the disrespect paid to Origin.
EDIT: Hey, you edited!
quote:Why don't photograph "Origin of the Species" in a jar of chimp urine and see what happens.
Let me make it clear that I object all forms of urine-based artwork. I mean really. Ew.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
The difference is this: As a Christian, the first time I saw a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish, I laughed. It is a funny statement on many levels. As you suggest, pissing on Muhamed could result in vandalism and angry words. How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted? Put Muhamed in a jar of piss and you will have a death warrant put out on you.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:As a Christian, the first time I saw a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish, I laughed
That's odd, because such an emblem doesn't exist. Go ahead and find an example online to prove otherwise. As I pointed out earlier, there is a common emblem of a Jesus fish eating a Darwin fish, but not the reverse.
quote:As you suggest, pissing on Muhamed could result in vandalism and angry words.
Right. Just like Piss Christ, which as attacked by teens with hammers in the gallery where it was displayed.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
You can buy both the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish and the Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. Which do you think came first? Either way, I find it humorous. The Jesus fish car emblem came first and the Darwin was a response. Logically, would Darwinian symbols be a fish with legs? Christians for a very long time have put fish on their vehicles. It might be a fact that the majority are Jusus eating Darwin since 80% of Americans are Christian but the original concept was the other way around. As I said, I think it is funny either way. A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
I agree, mal. It is dumb to get offended at people dissing your religion. I'm glad you've come around on this.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
PC corporate or govt diss is something different. Companies and govt should stay out of it. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. Some of my best freinds are atheists. I like them for who they are, not what they believe. I can accept different belief systyems but I reject the insitutional black balling of mine.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: PC corporate or govt diss is something different. Companies and govt should stay out of it. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. Some of my best freinds are atheists. I like them for who they are, not what they believe. I can accept different belief systyems but I reject the insitutional black balling of mine.
I'm sorry, this just doesn't follow. Which institutions are we talking about? And if companies or government are, as you say "blackballing" religion, how would you improve the situation, if you still want them to stay out of it? I'm perfectly ok with companies being involved with religion, granted, but I am in favor of restrictions on government involvement, including such things as government workers expressing religious affiliation while at work. Are you not in favor of such restrictions? If so, what rationale can you provide for a worker's right to express religious affiliation while representing the government?
I might be a bit more extreme than most on this subject. I put up with the President attending church or talking about religion in his official capacity as President, mostly because he has practically no free time or private life, but I don't like it. For others who work for the government, their free time should be theirs to pursue whatever interests they have, but their payed time should be spent following the rules that the government itself has to follow. I would suggest no punishments for transgression in this matter, it would only surprise me if government workers weren't trained well enough to know the difference between public and private life.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:the original concept was the other way around
No, the original concept was the traditional "Christian" fish with legs. The Christian fish eating the Darwin fish was the Christian response. I have never seen a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish.
quote:A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
*grin* A Truth fish biting down on a crescent moon would look remarkably like a fish on a hook, actually.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted?
Depends entirely on the part of the country you are in. I know many people in the South who have been flipped off while driving down there with such stickers, as well as having their cars keyed.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
*grin* A Truth fish biting down on a crescent moon would look remarkably like a fish on a hook, actually.
Technically I'm not sure Islam *has* any symbols. Why would anybody so devoutly and fanatically Muslim take offense at a desecration of a symbol that is forbidden by their own religion?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I don't have a Darwin fish because I love my car too much. During the recent presidential election I had to tape my bumper stickers to the inside of my windows to keep them from being pulled off.
Some people talk about "extreme conditions" but it's fairly common in my part of the country.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
When's the last time you actually lived for an extended time in the states? LOL
Seriously, the bumper-sticker removal got pretty out-of-hand with the 2008 election. Pulling Obama signs out of people's yards was pretty big in a lot of places.
If the human race survives the next 40 years, it won't be because of God, Jesus, Mohammad, or any such. It also won't be because of Stalin, Mao, Richard Dawkins, or James Randi, either. Extremism re: religion, either for or against, is the tendency voted most-likely-to-put-us-back-in-the-Stone-Age, IMHO.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Mal commented that he would be OK with folks responding as they truly believed. If a member of the Hebrew Faith wished a customer, "Happy Hannukah" or if an African American wished him "Joyful Kwanza" he would take it in the meaning that it was meant.
But the web-site in question criticizes stores based not on published store policy, but on the comments made by individual employees.
So if an Atheist or Agnostic or a Pan-Holiday Believer wished them "Happy Holidays" they were automatically considered "Hostile to Christians".
Isn't that what is wrong with this whole mess?
The whole site and much of the Christian-first argument seems to say that there are Christian Americans who are good and others who will be tolerated.
I'm going to start selling my line of t-shirts and bumper stickers soon.
It will say, "NCA--Non-Christian American and Proud of it."
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm guessing it is a slip of the typo . . . and have these strange visions of a world where every language corresponds to religious belief, and people who are multilingual are also members of the respective religions.
I am also imagining many fewer people knowing more than one or two languages Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
When's the last time you actually lived for an extended time in the states? LOL
ermm... well 6 months out of the last... 3 and a half years.
Yeah, that's why I asked. Besides, if you weren't here from mid-2008 to November 2008, you would still not have heard about any of the bumper sticker silliness, even if you had been here at other times. Not only that, IIRC, you live in a fairly liberal part of CA when you ARE in the states, which probably had McCain bumper sticker removal going on, instead of the other way around. LOL
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't know where I was told that Hebrew was synonymous with Jewish. (I was reading Jewish as more racial/cultural) Consider my now less ignorant.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
It's likely from the Bible, which often uses 'Hebrew' as the demonym for the Jewish tribes. Which makes sense for the time being described, since Hebrew was indeed the language of the Jews at the time.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I live in northern NJ, so I'd imagine the Christian-to-non-Christian ratio is slightly different than a majority of the US.
I grew up in areas that had heavy Jewish populations and currently live in areas with heavy Hindu populations. There is a large amount of religous diversity (along with a very high population density) and a fair amount of atheism/agnosticism, so while Christianity is still the majority, it isn't as overwhelming a majority as it is in other states (say, the Dakotas).
It's a lot easier to say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" than it is to make assumptions about someone's religious affiliation (and be wrong quite often).
That said, I'm in an interfaith marriage... and I don't see anything too dissonant with Christians celebrating Channukah. And, other than the names, there isn't much "christian" about evergreen (or plastic) trees, wreaths, Santa, elves, presents, stockings, reindeer, etc... that are really any more dissonant with Judaism than with Christianity.
But, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The word Hebrew was presumably derived from (and is definitely related to) the name Eber. Eber was an ancestor of Jacob (aka Israel) and his son Judah, from whom the term Judaism is derived.
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
More likely it's from Avraham ha'Ivri. The Hebrew word for "Hebrew" actually is "Ivrit".
Nonetheless, the origin of the term is fairly irrelevant. (Which is why I didn't bring it up. I'm certainly aware of it!) I know no Jews who refer to themselves as "Hebrews" (except entirely in jest) and certain segments of Christianity (but not others, for whatever combination of historical and cultural reasons) do. *shrug* Whatever.
Two actual living breathing Jews have explained that it's not the correct term.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I feel that greeting should be appropriate to the receiver not the giver. I say "Happy Hanukkah" to my friend who celebrate that and "Merry Christmas" to people I know celebrate that and "Happy Holidays" when I don't know what they celebrate. This seems to me to be a perfectly sensible solution for what to say at a business where you don't know people well or at all.
Saying "Merry Christmas" because you celebrate Christmas makes about as much sense as saying Happy Birthday to other people on your birthday instead of on theirs.
If you dig at it, the only thing that a "Happy Holidays" greeting threatens is the assumption that everyone who matters celebrates Christmas.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Some of my best freinds are atheists
he even lets them use his bathroom
My best friend is a pro choice atheist. Is it that hard to believe? Why do you think I keep coming back to Hatrack? I have never posted on a neo-con site. I'm not looking for affirmation of my beliefs. I enjoy these interactions and I don't view those with different opinions as bad.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted?
My Darwin fish had his front legs ripped off.
Which, ironically, seems to indicate that he has evolved from a quadruped to a biped.
Sorry to hear about your fish.... I agree, having the front legs ripped off only makes it a more potent symbol of evolution. Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
I assume that was intended as some kind of gibe, but accusing me of being unaware of something that I posted doesn't really make a heck of a lot of sense.
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
The link between "Eber" and Hebrew" is certainly a reasonable supposition, which is what presumably means. By the way, I've only posted it once.
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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