quote:We can actually look at a situation from someone else's point of view, even if we disagree with that point of view...
I thought you'd just got done excoriating Armoth for demonstrating that ability.
No. I excoriated him for going much further than empathy. Ben Gurion, in that quote, pointed out that he can see the Arab POV. So can I. Better than most of the bleeding hearts on this forum, incidentally. Armoth didn't do that. He basically said that the Arab POV is basically correct. But poor, poor us, what can we do? We have to be evil imperialist occupiers. We can't really be blamed for that. Wah!!!
posted
You could only wish. Sadly, that you are a despicable racist is clear with every word you say on this topic.
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quote:Armoth didn't do that. He basically said that the Arab POV is basically correct. But poor, poor us, what can we do? We have to be evil imperialist occupiers. We can't really be blamed for that.
Rather, I think Armoth is observing that the Jews can choose between being evil, imperialist occupiers and not existing as a people, and whether or not they can be blamed for choosing to exist is irrelevant.
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If so, that's a false dichotomy; the Jews existed for 2000 years without a homeland. They are existing just fine in the US today.
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quote:If so, that's a false dichotomy; the Jews existed for 2000 years without a homeland. They are existing just fine in the US today.
While I agree with this, KOM, I do think that Jewish people are not completely crazy to feel slightly insecure in the States. Just look at the Christian religious right...
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
Not that I think that'll ever happen. But I can understand the fear. And the comfort that comes from knowing there's a place you can run to should it happen where you'll always be accepted.
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posted
But of course recent history has proven rather unkind to large populations of Jews who did not have the political and military support of an independent state behind them. Surely then, the reasoning behind the formation of such a state is relatively clear, whether you agree such action is justified or not. Now, it's a perfect valid ethical and moral question as to where that state ought to have been established- but can you think of many places that this would have been possible?
Surely, the present location was less than ideal for manifold practical reasons, but there was a certain logic to that choice as well, completely aside from the religious implications. The establishment of a pro-western, pro-democratic state in the middle east was desirable to Europe and America, and so they supported its establishment and armament for more than just moral reasons. It's interesting that the US would not likely have given up land for nor supported a Jewish state on its own borders, but fully supported its establishment in a more politically unstable position- and I think it was more complicated than a simple "NIMBY" attitude.
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If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
Not that I think that'll ever happen. But I can understand the fear. And the comfort that comes from knowing there's a place you can run to should it happen where you'll always be accepted.
How lovely for you. Where is everyone else supposed to "run to"?
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posted
Jews in America who don't realize that they're only guests are delusional. Jews felt that way in Spain before 1492. Jews felt that way in Germany before 1938. Every time things go fairly well for us for a while, we forget history.
The only place in the world that is actually ours is the land of Israel.
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I don't think she's just "spouting," actually. I think she's speaking from the heart. I don't think she's right, but I don't begrudge her right to be passionately wrong.
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posted
Arguably, if you're Middle Eastern or Chinese in America, you probably should keep an eye on your exit strategies as well. So in that sense, I have to sympathize.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by Alcon:
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
Not that I think that'll ever happen. But I can understand the fear. And the comfort that comes from knowing there's a place you can run to should it happen where you'll always be accepted.
How lovely for you. Where is everyone else supposed to "run to"?
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
Not that I think that'll ever happen. But I can understand the fear. And the comfort that comes from knowing there's a place you can run to should it happen where you'll always be accepted.
How lovely for you. Where is everyone else supposed to "run to"?
Personally I'm in the camp of "lets just try not to let it get that far".
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I disagree [edit: with TWW, not Tom]. That's one of the only posts of hers in this thread that I entirely and without reservation agree with.
Ditto. My posts above were to help you understand this sentiment. Most Jews I know have this in the back of their minds, always.
It's not like we're waiting for it to happen in America, it's just that we know that it's definitely a possibility, and the existence of Israel makes us feel infinitely more comfortable.
That is the reason why Jews are leaving France in hordes.
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posted
I wonder why we atheists have never demanded a homeland of our own? We get killed in droves by religious crusades, too. Perhaps because we aren't linked by genetic destiny...?
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quote:If so, that's a false dichotomy; the Jews existed for 2000 years without a homeland. They are existing just fine in the US today.
While I agree with this, KOM, I do think that Jewish people are not completely crazy to feel slightly insecure in the States. Just look at the Christian religious right...
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
By that standard, atheists should be invading somewhere with a conveniently low military potential and making it their homeland. Are you seriously claiming that every religious group needs a nation-state (religion-state?) so its adherents will have somewhere safe to retreat to?
On behalf of atheists everywhere, I call dibs on California. The present population will just have to move out.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I wonder why we atheists have never demanded a homeland of our own? We get killed in droves by religious crusades, too. Perhaps because we aren't linked by genetic destiny...?
::shrug:: Ever since Napoleon created the secular space, Jews have been trying to assimilate for two centuries now...
The nazis did major research into a person's ethnic background and persecuted Jews who thought they were successful in their assimilation. I think that's why secular Jews see Israel as a haven - not at all for religious purposes, but purely because even if we wanted to assimilate, our safety isn't rooted simply in our perspective, but in the perspective of the rest of the world.
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quote:If so, that's a false dichotomy; the Jews existed for 2000 years without a homeland. They are existing just fine in the US today.
While I agree with this, KOM, I do think that Jewish people are not completely crazy to feel slightly insecure in the States. Just look at the Christian religious right...
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
By that standard, atheists should be invading somewhere with a conveniently low military potential and making it their homeland. Are you seriously claiming that every religious group needs a nation-state (religion-state?) so its adherents will have somewhere safe to retreat to?
On behalf of atheists everywhere, I call dibs on California. The present population will just have to move out.
No. No. No. No. No. There was a reason I wrote and there was a reason I wrote the way I wrote.
The argument isn't every segment has a home state, we want one to. The argument was nuanced in history, in a religious persecution, ethnic persecution, two thousand years of trends and turbulence, a situation that was born out of the holocaust, Western guilt, UN resolutions and British mandates. That's how we got to where we are.
I recognize that your world is so simple, if only everyone would start from scratch, renounce religion, false perceptions of ethnicity, race, gender, etc. And it would be. But it's insanely unrealistic. So you can whine in misery about how everyone is not as enlightened as you are, you can try your best to spread your worldview, or you can come up with a more practical and realistic response.
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posted
I fully understand the desire for a Jewish homeland. What I don't understand is why the creation and/or expansion of settlements has not been halted.
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You'll find a lot less Israelis in support of settlement or expansion.
A lot of the settlers are religious Zionists who are much more in Lisa's camp. They believe that the world can be expected to recognize a 2000 year-old claim, and they believe that God gave them the land.
(I believe the same, I just don't believe we, the Jews, are in a position to ask the world and the people who live there to respect a 2K y/o claim, at this point)
A lot of the settlements were taken for security reasons. ALL were taken after wars not initiated by Israel. Those are the settlements I support.
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posted
I'm sad that katharina has perceived racism in every single argumnet in support of Israel. I have always appreciated Lisa's comments regarding Israel as it is a point of view that is so rare here in the United States.
As far as feeling like a guest, I'm inclined to agree with her. It was only about 150 years ago that Mormons had to leave what was then the US and eek out a place to live in a hellish environment. Even then, an army was sent to chase them out which was only narrowly placated by bad weather, our refusal to take one life, and them realizing we were willing to burn everything to the ground and move to somewhere else.
Since then my people have never experienced main stream acceptance. I remember how excited folks in my church were in the late 90's and 00's when suddenly interest in Mormonism seem to balloon. Time, Newsweek, 60 minutes, all seem to be paying an inordinate amount of attention to us. Salt Lake City was hosting the 2000 Winter Olympic games, Mitt Romney salvaged a debacle and turned it into a triumph, he became governor of Massachussetts, the bluest of the blue states, and then he ran for president and it seemed like he had a fantastic shot at the presidency.
I didn't completely support Romney's candidacy, we disagreed on many things, but even I wanted to believe he could get the nomination and put a serious candidacy online. Then Mike Huckabee came along and I realized not much had changed. The people in Utah are as conservative as any place I've ever seen, so conservative they were going to vote for the Republican candidate even after Romney was walked out on by the Christian right.
I'm glad Utah doesn't have a fantastic geography, loads of resources, or convenience for business, as I am fairly certain were that the case, we'd be leaving again. I can sympathize with the Jews feeling like guests, and needing a place like Israel to exist. I confess, if the day comes where Mormons are no longer welcome here, I might find myself on a plane headed for somewhere like Israel.
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posted
I guess I just don't see Jews as guests. I would be sad if every Jewish person I knew left. I'd be sad to lose the diversity around me.
And I can understand ( a little ) this yearning for a homeland. But I can see much more clearly the high level of animosity and perpetual hatred that exists due to these disputes. We all share this land, and all have ancestors that, at some point in our past, pushed some other people out, or killed them, or used them. I don't want to white-wash these atrocities, but I think it's pointless to hold these grudges. It just leaves us mired in our own problems.
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quote:If so, that's a false dichotomy; the Jews existed for 2000 years without a homeland. They are existing just fine in the US today.
While I agree with this, KOM, I do think that Jewish people are not completely crazy to feel slightly insecure in the States. Just look at the Christian religious right...
If they ever got in power - really in power - how long do you think it would take them to turn on the other religions that co-inhabit this country?
By that standard, atheists should be invading somewhere with a conveniently low military potential and making it their homeland. Are you seriously claiming that every religious group needs a nation-state (religion-state?) so its adherents will have somewhere safe to retreat to?
On behalf of atheists everywhere, I call dibs on California. The present population will just have to move out.
I never said they were right to take the space, I just said I understand the comfort it gives. And frankly, I would love, Love, LOVE to have an "atheist" homeland somewhere (one that was a representative Democracy). I might even move there. But I would never advocate for forcibly taking a space to create one.
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posted
I would not advocate for an atheist homeland. Why would we need to create an identification based on a plot of land? What purpose would that serve?
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posted
Strategically it doesn't make much sense either, in a pinch it makes sense to have escape routes, but long-term you want to be able to get out in the world and assimilate others. Restricting yourself not only constrains the ability to assimilate others but opens yourself up to a sneak attack when you're not alert.
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posted
BlackBlade, I hope this doesn't bother you, but your post sympathizing with Lisa's argument about how Jews are "only guests" in the U.S. made me less sympathetic, instead of more.
My ancestors are all Mormons for at least 2 generations and include people who were part of the initial migration to Utah. And I have zero concern that my Mormon ancestry is going to threaten my ability to live in the U.S. in the future. (Based on the assumption that the Mormons as a bloc won't be declaring war on the U.S., which I think is a pretty safe one.)
If the trend over the last few decades wasn't so clear - unprecedented popular enthusiasm for cultural diversity - I might feel differently.
I don't think assuming that Jews will at some point be unwelcome/unsafe in the U.S. makes much sense, based on the way the U.S. looks now.
"Since then my people have never experienced main stream acceptance."
Yes, they have. They hold national offices, run public corporations, and as you noted, get lots of positive press. They can live and work where they want. Sure, if all the Protestant denominations recognized them as real Christians, that'd be a degree of "acceptance" beyond present reality, but I don't think you can say LDS folks aren't accepted by the mainstream just because of that margin.
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posted
Armoth, Jews have certainly been persecuted. They are not the only people who have been persecuted. Why should they get the "comfort" of a special, back-up country?
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: ... If the trend over the last few decades wasn't so clear - unprecedented popular enthusiasm for cultural diversity - I might feel differently.
I don't think assuming that Jews will at some point be unwelcome/unsafe in the U.S. makes much sense, based on the way the U.S. looks now.
Jews and Mormons maybe.
But for Muslims/Middle Easterners, it only took one 9/11 to get to racial profiling, indefinite detention without charge, and extraordinary rendition. Imagine a couple more 9/11 scale incidents and I think that the United States would get very unwelcome/unsafe very quickly. The route for Chinese Americans is a bit more fanciful but not entirely unrealistic either.
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posted
scifibum: Far be it from me to get upset because you have a response that is as real to you as mine is to me.
Your ancestors were Mormon, but correct me if I'm wrong you do not identify by the faith anymore. It's not the same thing.
Do you disagree that Romney's Mormonism was not a real problem when it came to his electability? Further, the general populace's knowledge of Mormonism is a bit on the ridiculous side. I could accept a very basic understanding, but most mistakenly believe we don't believe in Jesus.
One phrase that stood out for me during the whole Prop 8 episode was, "I have no tolerance for intolerance."
I may have sounded more fatalistic than I was going for in my last post, and I feel a little churlish for comparing the plight of Mormonism with Judaism. I don't live in fear that any day now I might wake up and be asked to leave the country. But the religious right think we are apostates living in sin, and the liberal left think we are hopelessly old fashioned and somewhat crazy.
The Jews lived in Europe for hundreds of years at a time before things got bad again, and often it got bad rapidly. I don't think the US is immune from that sort of development, and God knows I love my country like crazy.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: we have a quality that the Arabs lack entirely. It's called empathy. We can actually look at a situation from someone else's point of view, even if we disagree with that point of view, and even if the other person is an enemy.
Aaaaaand Lisa's off the deep end again. This forum works in bizarrely cyclical ways!
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quote:Originally posted by natural_mystic: I fully understand the desire for a Jewish homeland. What I don't understand is why the creation and/or expansion of settlements has not been halted.
If I have an empty lot between my house and a neighbor, why on earth shouldn't I be able to build an extension or another house there? They aren't allowing us to so much as put up a shed in the backyard.
What you call "settlements" are towns and cities. Why should they be strangled by being prohibited from building new apartment complexes or houses?
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I don't think assuming that Jews will at some point be unwelcome/unsafe in the U.S. makes much sense, based on the way the U.S. looks now.
And there are plenty of Jews who would agree with you. It's a case of "those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Everyone seems to think that their world and culture is unique. I bet there were nice Spaniards who said the same thing you're saying back in 1450. And Germans who said the same thing you're saying back in 1925. Hell, there were Jews in the Spanish court and in the Weimar government. And believe it or not, when Hitler was elected, he got a not insignificant number of Jewish votes.
The Jews in Germany wanted nothing more to be the best Germans in the world. They were "Germans of Mosaic persuasion". When they'd hear about anti-semitism, they would say, "Oh, they don't mean us. They mean those dirty Ausyidden (eastern Jews) who insist on being different.
And then when things went bad, most of their good friends turned on them like rabid dogs. Okay, maybe many of them did so because they didn't want to get painted as Jew-lovers, but the motivation doesn't really matter.
See, if you'd said, "I would fight to prevent that from happening," I would have been happy. But when you say that it isn't realistic to think that it'll happen, it just saddens me that one more person won't be doing anything about it.
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posted
Hey Lisa - you may think you're being clever but you're not.
Do you wanna fix that quote or should I press this cute little whistle button..???
(Yes, Ace of Spades was being a jerk, but it seems to me that you're the one that stepped over the line. If you disagree and prefer to let PJ sort it out that's fine with me)
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quote:See, if you'd said, "I would fight to prevent that from happening," I would have been happy. But when you say that it isn't realistic to think that it'll happen, it just saddens me that one more person won't be doing anything about it.
I thought about this, actually. And I think I would (fight it). But it's a bit hard for me to make a convincing promise about something I don't think will happen, so I didn't. To me, it'd feel glib and insincere. Sorry if that saddens you.
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posted
Wow, I thought evangelical Christians and Mormons* had the strongest persecution complexes around. Lisa's fears of future pogroms make even less sense to me; multiculturalism isn't some vague idea floating around the west, providing the indignant PC police with ammunition, it is all but built into consumerist capitalism, liberal democracy and enlightenment ideals.
There is no analogy between the Spain of centuries ago, mid-century Germany, and the west today, especially North America.
It would take a series of apocalyptic events to undue the political work of the Enlightenment, especially in the last decades. Exactly what could cause such a cataclysmic shift is a complete unknown. Worrying about complete unknowns is truly, deeply paranoid. You have a right to your paranoia, of course, I don't begrudge it of Christians, but a lot of Palestinians are getting screwed because of it.
*I don't separate Mormons from Christians to suggest Mormons are non-Christian, but because evangelical and Mormon persecution complexes seem to work in very different ways.
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quote:Originally posted by Foust: ... multiculturalism isn't some vague idea floating around the west, providing the indignant PC police with ammunition, it is all but built into consumerist capitalism, liberal democracy and enlightenment ideals.
...
It would take a series of apocalyptic events to undue the political work of the Enlightenment, especially in the last decades. Exactly what could cause such a cataclysmic shift is a complete unknown. Worrying about complete unknowns is truly, deeply paranoid. You have a right to your paranoia, of course, I don't begrudge it of Christians, but a lot of Palestinians are getting screwed because of it. [emphasis added] ...
Um. So, you do know that Palestinians, generally, aren't too on board with the whole capitalist/liberal democracy/enlightenment thing, yeah?
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I hated the Navi as the blue skinned hippie Mary Sue race they are.
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quote:Um. So, you do know that Palestinians, generally, aren't too on board with the whole capitalist/liberal democracy/enlightenment thing, yeah?
I was speaking about the west. Western Europe, US, Canada. Lisa is justifying sweeping and violent political action based on "what if all the progress made in the west was suddenly reversed? WHAT IF?"
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quote:Um. So, you do know that Palestinians, generally, aren't too on board with the whole capitalist/liberal democracy/enlightenment thing, yeah?
I was speaking about the west. Western Europe, US, Canada. Lisa is justifying sweeping and violent political action based on "what if all the progress made in the west was suddenly reversed? WHAT IF?"
No, I wasn't. Go back and reread my posts. Slowly, if that helps.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: "Since then my people have never experienced main stream acceptance."
Yes, they have. They hold national offices, run public corporations, and as you noted, get lots of positive press.
I suppose that depends on what he means by "mainstream." Jews of all religious minorities in America are certainly the best represented in business, politics, education, and entertainment. Mostly gone are the days of the "token Jew," while they remain for blacks, who represent a much larger percentage of the American population. Not to say there is not extant anti-semitism in America, but then there is anti-everything extant in America. Institutionalized bias against Jews has mostly disappeared in the last 50 years- and in many ways Jews have gained "mainstream acceptance," in America.
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posted
I think it's funny that we're getting into a debate as to whether or not Jews feel this way.
My grandparents are still alive. They'd look at you like you're a maniac if you gave them any of these arguments. My Grandfather had no faith that Israel would survive and he would run drills with my mother and her uncle - he made shoes with false heels in which to hide gold and diamonds, stored an unbelievable amount of flour...
My other grandparents trust no one. They make weekly visits to the bank to make sure that their money is still there.
My grandparents and their generation built Israel. My father served in the ministry of defense.
We love America. I live here. I feel safe. But I also feel like that could change. Not quickly, but possibly. The atmosphere in France, is scary. The atmosphere in England is becoming scary. The atmosphere in French Canada is scary.
Our generation can say to all the generations before us - don't worry, we have Israel.
Look. It's a bit annoying that you can say something like: "Your unfounded fears are causing a lot of Palestinians harm" - as I said, it didn't exactly go down like that.
Can you believe the fact that the UN voted to create Israel? That the British thought it would be a good idea to create Israel. For them, with the holocaust staring them in the face, I think they realized that it was necessary. So when the decades go by, all of a sudden what - what are you guys suggesting? "Well that was a nice experiment, but come on back to America."
What happened happened. Any attempt to undo the existence of Israel will just heighten the Jewish survivor mentality.
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