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I am certainly not debating whether or not Jews feel that way. I am debating whether or not the fact that they feel this way means they should get a back-up, "comfort" country.
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::rolls eyes:: Whatever Kat. Your one-liners and wonderful advice concerning BOTH sides are enlightening and helpful.
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kmbboots: I may note that they already have what they perceive as a back-up "comfort" country. Maybe the relevant debate is not whether they should get one, but how you and your like-minded debaters can convince them to give it up.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: And there are plenty of Jews who would agree with you. It's a case of "those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Everyone seems to think that their world and culture is unique. I bet there were nice Spaniards who said the same thing you're saying back in 1450. And Germans who said the same thing you're saying back in 1925. Hell, there were Jews in the Spanish court and in the Weimar government. And believe it or not, when Hitler was elected, he got a not insignificant number of Jewish votes.
The Jews in Germany wanted nothing more to be the best Germans in the world. They were "Germans of Mosaic persuasion". When they'd hear about anti-semitism, they would say, "Oh, they don't mean us. They mean those dirty Ausyidden (eastern Jews) who insist on being different.
And then when things went bad, most of their good friends turned on them like rabid dogs. Okay, maybe many of them did so because they didn't want to get painted as Jew-lovers, but the motivation doesn't really matter.
See, if you'd said, "I would fight to prevent that from happening," I would have been happy. But when you say that it isn't realistic to think that it'll happen, it just saddens me that one more person won't be doing anything about it.
It is disturbing and depressing that I actually agree with what you write here. Teaching history these past couple of years has proved to me if nothing else that history does repeat itself. Assuming that the United States will never fall from the grace it has found is blind. Our 200+ years are a blink of an eye when looking at human history. It doesn't take a cataclysm to turn people against a minority group.
Now, I truly believe Jews are currently safer in the United States than in any other country at any other time in history. We have way too many minoroty groups for everyone to gang up on one specific group. But things change, they always do.
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quote:Your ancestors were Mormon, but correct me if I'm wrong you do not identify by the faith anymore. It's not the same thing.
Most of the people that I know and love, including my wife and children, identify as Mormons. Is that sufficient basis for me to have a personal investment in whether Mormons are likely to ever face any actual persecution in the future?
As a member of a group for which public disdain is still acceptable and public distrust exceeds that for all other demographics, I have to wince when any group with the sort of political power wielded by the Mormons complains about their marginalization and persecution or the potential thereof.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I think it's funny that we're getting into a debate as to whether or not Jews feel this way.
It's rather clear how you feel. You feel like a victim. That's why you project onto what I said an argument I am not attempting to make- I am not attempting to portray how Jews *feel*. I can only portray how I see things, whatever value that may be to you. Please be clear on that.
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"Your ancestors were Mormon, but correct me if I'm wrong you do not identify by the faith anymore. It's not the same thing."
Depends if you think the persecution you will face will use recent tithing receipts to identify the victims. Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Your ancestors were Mormon, but correct me if I'm wrong you do not identify by the faith anymore. It's not the same thing.
Most of the people that I know and love, including my wife and children, identify as Mormons. Is that sufficient basis for me to have a personal investment in whether Mormons are likely to ever face any actual persecution in the future?
As a member of a group for which public disdain is still acceptable and public distrust exceeds that for all other demographics, I have to wince when any group with the sort of political power wielded by the Mormons complains about their marginalization and persecution or the potential thereof.
Matt: What I meant was that a person who does not self identify as Mormon is not going to be treated the same way as somebody who maintains that identification.
If you were in say France, Czech Republic, or The Netherlands you would be in a very sizable minority. I don't really want to get into a, "I'm a bigger martyr!" contest with you. I don't self identify with Utah very much, and that is the seat of Mormonism's power.
I know this is a weird time to mention it, but I still feel somewhat remiss that we've never managed to meet for lunch or dinner.
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Are we actually suggesting that Jews would feel safer in Israel than in America? The world is going to have to flip turn upside down before I can imagine that being a realistic scenario.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Are we actually suggesting that Jews would feel safer in Israel than in America? The world is going to have to flip turn upside down before I can imagine that being a realistic scenario.
I suspect a reason for this is that they're very tribal and ethnocentric and feel that just about any day now the rest of America is going to find out about these tendencies of theirs and come after them for it.
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Lisa whining about anti-semitism is like a Klansman complaining about bigotry against the Scotch-Irish.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Are we actually suggesting that Jews would feel safer in Israel than in America? The world is going to have to flip turn upside down before I can imagine that being a realistic scenario.
Absolutely. In so many ways.
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quote:I don't really want to get into a, "I'm a bigger martyr!" contest with you.
Not a chance. I never complain about persecution or marginalization. I just have to give an exasperated "oh please!" when I hear it (and I hear it *ALL THE TIME*) from my Mormon friends. Though it does sound even sillier coming from, say, Evangelicals. "I'm being persecuted!" is starting to mean "I'm being criticized!".
quote:I know this is a weird time to mention it, but I still feel somewhat remiss that we've never managed to meet for lunch or dinner.
Heh. Being exasperated in person would be a richer experience. I kid. We'll have to work something out.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Lisa, please expand on that. I have trouble picturing it.
Sure. I live in Chicago. I have a better chance of dying in a traffic accident or getting shot or mugged than I do of getting hurt in Israel.
It's sort of like plane crashes. They may not be that common, but when they happen, they're pretty horrendous.
And yes, I've had close calls in Israel. After I moved there in 1987, I got a card from a government agency offering me a job. I went out to Tel Aviv and interviewed, and turned it down (they wanted me to go to Africa as part of an Israel "Peace Corps" thing). The chilling thing is that I took the 405 bus to Tel Aviv, leaving Jerusalem at 9-something in the morning. The same exact bus the very next day was the subject of a terrorist attack, when a peace-loving Palestinian went up to the front of the bus, grabbed the steering wheel, and twisted it, throwing the bus off a mountain cliff.
And I had a friend who was riding the 14 bus to Talpiot one day when a poor downtrodden victim of Israel aggression decided to blow it up. It was actually the first time a friend of mine had been murdered. I used to live in Talpiot, incidentally, and the 14 was the bus I'd use to go into downtown Jerusalem and back.
So yes, stuff like that happens. But here's what doesn't happen. I can go to the store in Israel, and if my daughter wanders off, I don't have to worry. Here in Chicago, I have a virtual heart attack every time that happens, because in uncivilized America, people steal children.
When Tova was a baby, we used to go to the store with her in a stroller. The aisles in most stores in Israel are half the size of your average grocery store aisle here. Maybe a third the size. So pushing a stroller through the store isn't very practical. So we'd leave her in the stroller at the front of the store while we shopped. Now, I remember when I was a kid (in Chicago), and my mother used to leave us in the car while she ran into the grocery store. Totally normal and reasonable thing to do in the 60s and 70s. Now it's illegal, and probably for good reason.
One of the big differences is that here, we're afraid of crime. And in Israel, we're afraid of war crimes. But the army and police in Israel is a little less shackled by political correctness than their counterparts here in America, which makes me feel safer there.
Racial profiling? Well, hell yes. The very idea that you'd risk your life and the lives of those around you rather than offend someone's delicate sensibilities is one of the more insane ideas I've ever heard of. In Israel, when you go to the airport, the security is trained to look for suspicious actions, or appearance. And when they check your things, they talk to you. They aren't just low-paid automatons making you take your shoes off and throwing away your water bottles. And they damned well do pay closer attention to people matching the profile of those who are most likely to commit atrocities.
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Lisa whining about anti-semitism is like a Klansman complaining about bigotry against the Scotch-Irish.
Whining? Oh, I don't think so. Everyone on this forum knows that you and Ace are Jew-hating scumbags.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Lisa, please expand on that. I have trouble picturing it.
Sure. I live in Chicago. I have a better chance of dying in a traffic accident or getting shot or mugged than I do of getting hurt in Israel.
It's sort of like plane crashes. They may not be that common, but when they happen, they're pretty horrendous.
And yes, I've had close calls in Israel. After I moved there in 1987, I got a card from a government agency offering me a job. I went out to Tel Aviv and interviewed, and turned it down (they wanted me to go to Africa as part of an Israel "Peace Corps" thing). The chilling thing is that I took the 405 bus to Tel Aviv, leaving Jerusalem at 9-something in the morning. The same exact bus the very next day was the subject of a terrorist attack, when a peace-loving Palestinian went up to the front of the bus, grabbed the steering wheel, and twisted it, throwing the bus off a mountain cliff.
And I had a friend who was riding the 14 bus to Talpiot one day when a poor downtrodden victim of Israel aggression decided to blow it up. It was actually the first time a friend of mine had been murdered. I used to live in Talpiot, incidentally, and the 14 was the bus I'd use to go into downtown Jerusalem and back.
So yes, stuff like that happens. But here's what doesn't happen. I can go to the store in Israel, and if my daughter wanders off, I don't have to worry. Here in Chicago, I have a virtual heart attack every time that happens, because in uncivilized America, people steal children.
When Tova was a baby, we used to go to the store with her in a stroller. The aisles in most stores in Israel are half the size of your average grocery store aisle here. Maybe a third the size. So pushing a stroller through the store isn't very practical. So we'd leave her in the stroller at the front of the store while we shopped. Now, I remember when I was a kid (in Chicago), and my mother used to leave us in the car while she ran into the grocery store. Totally normal and reasonable thing to do in the 60s and 70s. Now it's illegal, and probably for good reason.
One of the big differences is that here, we're afraid of crime. And in Israel, we're afraid of war crimes. But the army and police in Israel is a little less shackled by political correctness than their counterparts here in America, which makes me feel safer there.
Racial profiling? Well, hell yes. The very idea that you'd risk your life and the lives of those around you rather than offend someone's delicate sensibilities is one of the more insane ideas I've ever heard of. In Israel, when you go to the airport, the security is trained to look for suspicious actions, or appearance. And when they check your things, they talk to you. They aren't just low-paid automatons making you take your shoes off and throwing away your water bottles. And they damned well do pay closer attention to people matching the profile of those who are most likely to commit atrocities.
Clear enough?
What does any of that have to do with you being Jewish? Am I missing something? I thought your point was that you were afraid of being targeting because you are a Jew in America. I'm not sure I saw where you defended that statement in your post. Did you?
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Not to speak for Lisa, but I think it was two separate points. Feeling safer IN Israel (and I entirely agree with her explanation of how and why) is a separate issue from feeling safer because there IS an Israel.
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quote: Here in Chicago, I have a virtual heart attack every time that happens, because in uncivilized America, people steal children.
No, they don't. If I remember right, the average is slightly above 100 for children kidnapped by strangers per year in America.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Not to speak for Lisa, but I think it was two separate points. Feeling safer IN Israel (and I entirely agree with her explanation of how and why) is a separate issue from feeling safer because there IS an Israel.
NO, RIVKA, her point was that she was afraid of being targeting for harrassment or worse in America for being Jewish. Stop backpedaling. You are losing credibility by the boatload. Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: No, they don't. If I remember right, the average is slightly above 100 for children kidnapped by strangers per year in America.
Still, it wouldn't surprise me if the actual rate was higher in Chicago than in Israel. When a co-worker went to Israel, I was surprised to see that the homicide rate was substantially higher in places like Chicago or Philadelphia than Israel, although that has more to do with the ridiculous amounts of crime in the former two than anything particularly out of the ordinary in the latter when you compare things back to Canada.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Not to speak for Lisa, but I think it was two separate points. Feeling safer IN Israel (and I entirely agree with her explanation of how and why) is a separate issue from feeling safer because there IS an Israel.
NO, RIVKA, her point was that she was afraid of being targeting for harrassment or worse in America for being Jewish. Stop backpedaling. You are losing credibility by the boatload.
As I said, I'm not speaking for her. So maybe you are correct about what she meant. It's not what I meant, though. You can call your misunderstanding backpedaling if you like.
And I don't think I could possibly care less about what you think of my credibility.
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It's possible that the rate is higher. Of course, let's say that there are 120 stranger abductions a year. A low estimate of children under 18 in the US is 73 million.
So, in that case, the rate of stranger abductions would be 0.00000164.
There's about 2.5 million children in Israel. That's about 30 times less than in the US. For the rate to be lower in this case, there would have to be less than 4 children abducted by strangers in Israel.
---
Crime is a huge problem in the U.S. It's higher here than just about anywhere else. But this particular worry that there is this mass of people just looking to abduct your children if you take your eye off them for a minute is false.
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If you are not black, the odds of your being involved in a violent crime in America are pretty negligible.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Not to speak for Lisa, but I think it was two separate points. Feeling safer IN Israel (and I entirely agree with her explanation of how and why) is a separate issue from feeling safer because there IS an Israel.
NO, RIVKA, her point was that she was afraid of being targeting for harrassment or worse in America for being Jewish. Stop backpedaling. You are losing credibility by the boatload.
As I said, I'm not speaking for her. So maybe you are correct about what she meant. It's not what I meant, though. You can call your misunderstanding backpedaling if you like.
And I don't think I could possibly care less about what you think of my credibility.
You just backpedaled for Lisa...is your "crediblity-destroying-argument-detector" on the blink?
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quote:By that standard, atheists should be invading somewhere with a conveniently low military potential and making it their homeland. Are you seriously claiming that every religious group needs a nation-state (religion-state?) so its adherents will have somewhere safe to retreat to?
On behalf of atheists everywhere, I call dibs on California. The present population will just have to move out.
If you want all of the atheists to have California, thats fine with me. It will eventually fall into the ocean anyways.
And Clive, leave us Scotts alone.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: What does any of that have to do with you being Jewish? Am I missing something? I thought your point was that you were afraid of being targeting because you are a Jew in America. I'm not sure I saw where you defended that statement in your post. Did you?
More reading comprehension problems. Why do I waste my time with you? Other people read it without having your problem.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Not to speak for Lisa, but I think it was two separate points. Feeling safer IN Israel (and I entirely agree with her explanation of how and why) is a separate issue from feeling safer because there IS an Israel.
NO, RIVKA, her point was that she was afraid of being targeting for harrassment or worse in America for being Jewish. Stop backpedaling. You are losing credibility by the boatload.
Imbecile. Rivka has a brain and read what I wrote correctly. You have a giant chip where a brain would otherwise be, and did not. I'm shocked.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: There's about 2.5 million children in Israel. That's about 30 times less than in the US. For the rate to be lower in this case, there would have to be less than 4 children abducted by strangers in Israel.
Fewer.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Crime is a huge problem in the U.S. It's higher here than just about anywhere else. But this particular worry that there is this mass of people just looking to abduct your children if you take your eye off them for a minute is false.
posted
Just thought this would be amusing to throw out there:
quote:A statement from their website reads: “ ChristianExodus.org was founded in November of 2003 in response to the moral degeneration of American culture, and the rampant corruption among the powers that be. The initial goal was to move thousands of Christian constitutionalists to South Carolina to accelerate the return to self-government based upon Christian principles at the local and State level. This project continues to this day, with the ultimate goal of forming an independent Christian nation that will survive after the decline and fall of the financially and morally bankrupt American empire. We have learned, however; that the chains of our slavery and dependence upon godless government have more of a hold on us than can be broken by simply moving to another State.
As many like-minded Christian activists pursue independent Christian living without relocating, the scope has expanded to promote "personal secession" though many and various tracks, wherever they can be implemented. The long process of disentanglement from idolatrous dependencies includes such practices of moving towards a home-centered economy, with intentional community, home-schooling, home-gardening, house churches, health-cost sharing, private exchange, unlicenced ministry, and any other way in which we might live free and godly lives in Christ Jesus, without prostrating ourselves to eat from the hand of the imperial magistrate.
Honestly, I think we could afford to lose South Carolina if it would rid us of the sort of conservative Christians that would buy into this, but that's probably overly uncharitable of me.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If you are not black, the odds of your being involved in a violent crime in America are pretty negligible.
Woof. And yet I'm the one getting accused of racism?
Though I'll grant that the people who've so accused me are either antisemitic dreck or just really, really bad people (and you both know who you are), so the accusations aren't a big deal.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Though I'll grant that the people who've so accused me are either antisemitic dreck or just really, really bad people (and you both know who you are), so the accusations aren't a big deal.
This is my along my thoughts when you cry about anti-Jew bigotry.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: You think? Who would have guessed?
Well it's just hilarious how you're trying to create a special, vile status for those who disagree with your views when it's clear that's you're the one who's vile and despicable herself. Pot, kettle, etc.
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quote:Woof. And yet I'm the one getting accused of racism?
I point out, rather, that filtering out black-on-black violence from violent crime statistics in this country dramatically changes the numbers, so the actual chance of suffering a violent crime in America if you are Jewish and not black is much lower than a casual examination of the statistics might imply.
quote:Do you have kids?
For what it's worth, I do. Two daughters, in fact. I have absolutely no fear that they will be abducted -- or, more appropriately, I fear that they will drown in the bath far more than I fear that they will be abducted.
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I'm sorry I didn't get here sooner. I have a new baby in the house, two other sick children, and out of town guests.
Ace, if you want to take part in the discussion, you may. If you want solely to keep making snide remarks, then please stay out. Lisa, please don't resort to name-calling. Lisa and Clive, maybe it would be better if you didn't speak directly to each other (though speaking about one another is probably worse).
As has been made obvious over and over, emotions run high on this issue (among others). Please take that into account both when you (general) post and when you read someone else's post. Try to tread lightly, and give others the benefit of the doubt.
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Anyone paranoid about abduction (yeah I can now say I have a child!) should never put their child in a car. Your child WILL be in an auto accident one day. The average person has about one accident every 13 years.
Everyday people are scared to death of getting on a plane, strangers taking their children, and terrorists. Yet we happily get into a death trap on a daily basis to drive to work and take our children to school.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Anyone paranoid about abduction (yeah I can now say I have a child!) should never put their child in a car. Your child WILL be in an auto accident one day. The average person has about one accident every 13 years.
Everyday people are scared to death of getting on a plane, strangers taking their children, and terrorists. Yet we happily get into a death trap on a daily basis to drive to work and take our children to school.
Trenchant insight. But what does this have to do with Israeli aggression against Palestinians?
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Trenchant insight. But what does this have to do with Israeli self-defense against Palestinians?
Fixed that for you.
Yeah, this has become a very constructive discussion, yet again.
You know Lisa, I don't expect you to change, but you do more for your opposition with this kind of attitude than you do for your side.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: [qb]There's about 2.5 million children in Israel. That's about 30 times less than in the US. For the rate to be lower in this case, there would have to be less than 4 children abducted by strangers in Israel.
Fewer.
No, I meant less. I'm open to the possibility of some percentage of a child being abducted.
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Trenchant insight. But what does this have to do with Israeli self-defense against Palestinians?
Fixed that for you.
That Nazis said they were acting in self-defense too.
Well, more specifically, the Nazis said that somebody kept stealing their donuts. No matter how tasty a given donut may be, I don't think it's theft constitutes a serious assault on a person such that concerns of self-defense comes into play.
I may be going against the grain here, but I think the Nazis were very wrong.
I'm also not sure that they even make donuts in Israel.
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