posted
I agree with the basic point -- harsh punishment of children is wrong. I like the words of a past leader of my church, who said that his father never laid a hand on his children except to bless them. I was subject to yelling and corporal punishment too, including the belt and the attitude that "children are bad," and I'm trying to do things very differently with my two kids.
Syn, you've had serious issues with the opinions of our site host, so I'm curious to see what you think of this column, in which he shares some child-rearing philosophy.
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Ok, that article I loved. I love it when he talks about kids, because most of the time he's so warm and kind about it, like when he's talking about changing kids diapers and how it's not a very pleasant task, but still... It's so nice. It's why Lost Boys is a favourite book of mine by OSC even though I can't read it again because I'll cry. A lot. I like it when I agree about something with someone I usually disagree with. Which may be a sentence with bad grammar, but that's just such a nicer way to deal with a child than yelling and hitting and breaking the eggs AND their hearts.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I don't really think I'm immature. I have the tendency to get all flappy over things like butterflies and moths, but that doesn't mean immaturity.
I can't speak for Tom, but that has nothing to do with my saying you act immature here. That has to do with the fact that you seem unable to pass up any opportunity to respond -- often to fairly unrelated things -- in a very negative way. Every thread someone makes about child-rearing doesn't need a rant about the Pearls. Every time someone mentions specific OSC books, you need not mention that you dislike them.
I'm sorry, Syn. I like you. I think you could be a happy person, and I wish you would take more of the advice people have given you here over the years. But you seem determined to be negative and unhappy. And mostly, that makes me very sad. But when you talk about having a kid -- and soon! -- it scares the crap out of me.
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quote:I could be romanticizing it a bit, but I think about my own childhood and what I do not want for my kids when I have them...
You're romanticizing it a lot. You seem to think that you can have kids and somehow do it right, as in "better than (your) parents did." This is not the case. Speaking as a parent, the best you can ever do -- especially relative to your own parents -- is "less wrong." You don't have to prove yourself to your parents (or yourself) by raising children better than they did.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I could be romanticizing it a bit, but I think about my own childhood and what I do not want for my kids when I have them...
You're romanticizing it a lot. You seem to think that you can have kids and somehow do it right, as in "better than (your) parents did." This is not the case. Speaking as a parent, the best you can ever do -- especially relative to your own parents -- is "less wrong." You don't have to prove yourself to your parents (or yourself) by raising children better than they did.
It's not a matter of proving myself to my parents, but more... about... well at least not hitting them for starters. It's about doing what is best for them and what will help them to grow up with some semblance of... wholeness. It just makes me sad to have more memories of being hit by my mother than hugged. I know she loves me and stuck by me when I had cancer, but she also hit me a bit excessively when I was having chemo. It's not just about the kids themselves, but THEIR kids, and their kid's kids. Having children is influencing generations long after you're gone. That's why that foundation of love and trust is so important and why it's important to undo that stuff as soon as possible.
quote: I'm sorry, Syn. I like you. I think you could be a happy person, and I wish you would take more of the advice people have given you here over the years. But you seem determined to be negative and unhappy. And mostly, that makes me very sad. But when you talk about having a kid -- and soon! -- it scares the crap out of me.
Uh, you're not around me all the time. Most of the time I'm running around chirping with happiness over a song, a good book. All sorts of things, but it's hard to ignore something like kids being hit because it has a huge effect on the whole of society. Plus I am trying to focus more on the Good Stuff. Such as getting more cocoons and chrysalises, but it's hard to ignore the bad stuff, and I can't ignore something like millions of kids being hurt for a no good reason. But I am pretty content, and I did mention that I love Lost Boys, as it's so heartfelt. I should focus on Neil Gaiman a bit more than OSC, but, if I disagree with something, there's nothing wrong with stating it. I tend to disagree with aspects of OSC's point of view because I don't think it has the healthiest effect on society, and he's doing the same thing even as I'm thinking, homosexuality is NOT going to destroy America.
But I definitely can appreciate his sweet warmer articles.
What this does to do with me having kids is beyond me. I'm not even sure this is supposed to be about me, but a strong desire for kids to not be treated harshly anymore. Plus I started this thread to bring this guy to people's attention because he really does need to be stopped so other kids don't have to suffer that way. That dude is the real negative thing to try to stop. I'm usually quite content with my life and myself, though there's ways I could make things a lot better.
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quote:What this does to do with me having kids is beyond me.
That's actually part of what bothers me, Syne. You need more self-awareness if you're going to be a good mother. Otherwise, the first time your kid says "I hate you," it'll destroy you.
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quote:What this does to do with me having kids is beyond me.
That's actually part of what bothers me, Syne. You need more self-awareness if you're going to be a good mother. Otherwise, the first time your kid says "I hate you," it'll destroy you.
Not really. They seldom mean that. Usually they are just angry for the moment. Then there's, "You're not my REAL mommy." Which I may get in the future.
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Intellectually understanding what a child may mean does not necessarily prepare you for having it said.
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This is true... I think teens scare me more than toddlers and kids combine.
They are so... tall. So much harder to redirect. So many hormones of rage and stuff. urg... teenagers ><
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quote:What this does to do with me having kids is beyond me.
That's actually part of what bothers me, Syne. You need more self-awareness if you're going to be a good mother. Otherwise, the first time your kid says "I hate you," it'll destroy you.
Not really. They seldom mean that. Usually they are just angry for the moment.
Not true. Not when they're teenagers. They can really, REALLY mean it then.
And every adorable infant or cute toddler becomes a teenager sooner or later. Mostly sooner.
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quote:What this does to do with me having kids is beyond me.
That's actually part of what bothers me, Syne. You need more self-awareness if you're going to be a good mother. Otherwise, the first time your kid says "I hate you," it'll destroy you.
Not really. They seldom mean that. Usually they are just angry for the moment.
Not true. Not when they're teenagers. They can really, REALLY mean it then.
And every adorable infant or cute toddler becomes a teenager sooner or later. Mostly sooner.
That's what makes teenagers so scary. I wasn't like that when I was a teen, but then I was rather shy... and a bit dull. I just wanted to read and listen to music all day.
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quote:I could be romanticizing it a bit, but I think about my own childhood and what I do not want for my kids when I have them...
You're romanticizing it a lot. You seem to think that you can have kids and somehow do it right,as in "better than (your) parents did." This is not the case. Speaking as a parent, the best you can ever do -- especially relative to your own parents -- is "less wrong." You don't have to prove yourself to your parents (or yourself) by raising children better than they did.
Tom I agree with almost everything you've been saying here, but I have to disagree with the bolded section. It is absolutely possible to be a better parent than one's own parents were, and I don't think it's wrong for someone to feel that's a goal to strive for.
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Synesthesia, fwiw, I haven't noticed you being any more messed up or less mature or "ready" than many people who turn out to be perfectly fine parents.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Synesthesia, fwiw, I haven't noticed you being any more messed up or less mature or "ready" than many people who turn out to be perfectly fine parents.
And as a non-parent, you would be a much better judge than two parents.
Of course, you'll explain why that's irrelevant.
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quote:I don't think it's wrong for someone to feel that's a goal to strive for.
I think it is, however, a horrible reason to have children.
But how do you know that's my only reason to have children? I really would simply like to raise my children better than I was raised. It makes sense to me as parenting is the most important job EVER in the whole world. My own parents were only 20 and 21 when they had me. I'm 31 now. I don't think my father wanted to have a kid, and my mother was abused terribly as a child. That's pretty much the main reason why I want to strive to at least be gentler and less harsh. It's not like I'm thinking, I will be the PERFECT PARENT, because perfection doesn't really exist, but I'll have to work hard not to hit, not to yell, not to be too harsh and to care about those kids' feelings.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Synesthesia, fwiw, I haven't noticed you being any more messed up or less mature or "ready" than many people who turn out to be perfectly fine parents.
And as a non-parent, you would be a much better judge than two parents.
Of course, you'll explain why that's irrelevant.
I'm not sure that response was deserved. Many people aren't visibly prepared, don't show signs of the things that make good parents... and then are OK parents.
Syn is at least right in that studying parenting puts her ahead of the curve compared to many other parents.
More importantly - she also seems to recognize that she's not ready. So as far as I can tell, there's no need to belabor the point.
"Synethesia" is a persona that is noticeably different from the version of herself that shows up on Ornery.org, and this to me is enough to indicate that Syne isn't the real person. Syne emotes. And likes butterflies and chrysalises. And loves music. And is drastically wistful.
I believe the qualities I've listed are deliberately evoked.
There are other things, of course, which are of greater concern. But she's aware of them.
I think what touched off this derail was Synethesia-the-persona evoking wistfulness and childlike eagerness, but this time about parenting.
Person-behind-Synethesia quickly noted that she's not really looking to get pregnant right now or anything. So we can relax.
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Yeah, it would be impossible for me to get pregnant right now anyway, it's only PART of my persona, the moth loving musically passionate one, folks sure do have a lot of layers to them. So it's part of the real person, but not the whole as there's other aspects of me that folks do not always see.
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Though I don't know if the answer would be persuasive to anyone, would you agree with my guess that you are deliberately projecting a childlike persona on Hatrack, and that the "real" you is not so childlike?
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Syne emotes. And likes butterflies and chrysalises. And loves music. And is drastically wistful.
None of which has anything to do with what concerns me (and I would guess, Tom).
And I would not have said a word had she not been trying to ignore and explain away Tom's concerns, just as she has ignored or explained away a lot of Hatrack attempts to help her over the last 7 years.
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I have known perfectly lovely people who become dreadful innatentive parents, and lazy self-absorbed recreational drug users who devote thier entire selves to thier babies. A happily married couple with three children whose relationship started when she started following my friend around and including herself in whatever he was doing, she also had a perpensity for punching him which made us all wonder why he put up with her... but five years later and three kids thier bond is sugar sweet and a bit annoying.
Ive typed all this to present two questions, who cares how and why Syn wants to have a baby and how do you truely know anything about her? for heavens sake before this I had never cared to wonder what gender Synesthesia would indicate. Its not harsh to start questioning her future adequacies like this, its down-right rude.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Though I don't know if the answer would be persuasive to anyone, would you agree with my guess that you are deliberately projecting a childlike persona on Hatrack, and that the "real" you is not so childlike?
Well, I am not so sure, I suspect I may have Asperger's but that could have something to do with it. But me being "child-like" doesn't mean I'm some dopy person. I'm agreeing with Achillesheel up there. I started this topic to point out Pearl and the cruel things his followers are doing to children. It really shouldn't be a "let's jump on Synesthesia for being too immature to be a parent" thread, especially since I've acknowledged that I'm not ready to be a parent NOW. I've notice that folks on and off the internet have a tendency to jump on me. It's not as if I'm not listening to people's advice, I am trying to explain myself, but this usually leads to more jumping. Which is starting to frustrate me. I have the tendency to be meek and slow to anger when it comes to things involving me. I politely ask that instead of folks jumping on me for my future personal decisions, which seems deeply unfair to me, that folks focus on the more pressing topic at hand. Especially since short of someone dumping a baby into my lap, I won't be having or adopting kids for at least a year or so. And I sure as hell wouldn't raise them using such inhumane methods. There's a lot of facades to me, by the way. Just because I'm not pretending to be some stiff dignified person, doesn't mean I'm sort of ditz to be jumped on constantly.
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quote:especially since I've acknowledged that I'm not ready to be a parent NOW.
I would like you to acknowledge that you are not ready to be a parent SOON. Like, not within the next three years at least. I'm really not kidding about this, Syne; you know I'm rooting for you in most elements of your personal life, but your deep desire to acquire a baby somehow is a perfect example of putting the cart before the horse.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: you know I'm rooting for you in most elements of your personal life, but your deep desire to acquire a baby somehow is a perfect example of putting the cart before the horse.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Well, I am not so sure, I suspect I may have Asperger's but that could have something to do with it.
Two things:
1. Aspberger's is being removed as a diagnosis. 2. Anything like this — an autistic spectrum disorder — should not be self-diagnosed. Leads to too many countereffectual self-management strategies which include but are not limited to using your self-diagnosis as an excuse for not directly tackling life issues, or not managing them properly.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I really don't understand the need of some of you to tell Syne she is too immature to have a child. This is an internet forum people. If you know her personally outside of the forum I can understand it a little more, but to judge someone based on a forum is folly. Syne acknowledged that she is not ready, but even after this it seems some of you keep twisting that screw deeper and deeper.
I have opinions and beliefs as well, but you have no idea what type of person I am outside of the forum. To all of the women I work with at my job I am their funny little brother, always cracking jokes. You don't see that side of me here on the forums. You don't see how I interact with my two 2 year old nieces, and how I spend hours with them every week teaching them the alphabet and different words. You didn't see how proud I was when one of my little nieces told her dad where rain comes from and said the word evaporate in a sentence. To them I am a teacher. To my 4 younger brothers and my younger sister, I am their big brother that always looks out for them, even though we are all grown up.
My point is that you can't judge someone solely based on an internet forum. Tempers flare, posts are taken out of context, and sometimes we can type completely outrageous posts when we are angry, tired, drunk, or otherwise "out of it." Try to be a little more understanding.
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quote:I really don't understand the need of some of you to tell Syne she is too immature to have a child. This is an internet forum people.
Were she only to try to adopt Internet children, I would not care.
quote:I have opinions and beliefs as well, but you have no idea what type of person I am outside of the forum.
This is, quite frankly, not my fault. If you want me to take your other personality traits into consideration, exhibit them. I won't apologize for otherwise not being aware that they exist.
What I know of Syne tells me that she is not ready to be a mother. Period.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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One pretty good indicator of emotional immaturity, I think, is grinding one's teeth over stuff one reads on the Internet to the point they consider purchasing expensive dental equipment to alleviate the problem...instead of either avoiding the stuff proactively, or not being so destructively upset about it.
Seriously, Syn, if you can't handle this, what makes you think you're possibly equipped to handle raising a child? That may sound harsh, but bear in mind 'fit to raise a child' is a pretty high standard, and there isn't any shame in failing to meet that standard before you actually have a child.
quote:It's not a matter of proving myself to my parents, but more... about... well at least not hitting them for starters.
That's why that foundation of love and trust is so important and why it's important to undo that stuff as soon as possible.
These are just a few of what might be called red flags regarding parenting ability and motives for being a parent, Synethesia. Proving yourself to your parents shouldn't be anywhere on a list of reasons to have a kid, but you're speaking as though it's there, just not much. You're talking about creating and raising a human life, at least in small part for the purposes of proving something to your parents? That kid isn't a vehicle to continue an argument with your parents, no matter how right you are. If you were absolutely, undeniably, 110% right and they were all the way totally wrong, it still wouldn't be fair to the child. It would still be quite selfish, frankly.
As to the second, no matter what kind of parenting job you did with a hypothetical kid, it would never, ever, not even a little undo what was done to you as a child. A kid isn't a time-traveling DeLorean, it's another human life. It doesn't exist to heal you. Even if it could, that's not its job.
Now, kmbboots may be quite right. If you had a child today, you may turn out to be a perfectly fine parent...but if you did, that wouldn't change the fact that your motives right now, that you're talking about here, are...well, they're pretty crappy.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Aspberger's is being removed as a diagnosis.
Which many people, layperson and professional alike, strongly disagree with.
Well, about that — aspies have always pretty much been considered to have a high functioning autistic spectrum disorder. Given the ambiguity over testable functions to certify and differentiate an aspie from a person with an otherwise nondifferentiated autistic spectrum disorder, the removal of aspbergers from the DSM makes sense until there's a clear test and easily demonstrated mental difference that would show aspies to be notably different in a consistent way from the general body of ASD not otherwise specified.
I'm not set one way or the other on the issue but I easily anticipated the controversy. I knew it would be controversial especially among people who greatly self-associate with the label.
Aspies are weird, and the infamous self-diagnosed aspies are weirder, and there are a fantastic amount of them who are fiercely defensive because they consider the label to be an integral part of their personality.
I forget who it was around here who talked about other 'humans' disdainfully as if they were very distinct from them and as a not-human found them very quaint, but they were a perfect example of someone who whether they have a professional diagnosis of an autistic spectrum disorder, are manifesting their fixative exclusion-by-labeling in a rather self-obsessed way. And this is a common occurrence (really, you'll see it a lot) with people with Aspbergers/high functioning ASD. Which leads to a problem: people who are certainly not receiving a qualified diagnosis for aspbergers are highly desirous of the inclusive labeling of the 'aspie community' and will jump into that, regardless as to many degrees of incomparability with the block diagnosis.
What the change is doing is taking away the block diagnosis due to lack of clear, acid tests of the applicability of the diagnosis versus ASD, and moving towards a continuum based diagnosis with more variability towards understanding what is a quite variable condition.
Can't say I necessarily disagree with it. but I know that the aspie community is going to be filled with people who are going to be vehemently bitter about this.
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You guys need to find something better to do than make yourselves feel better about how awesomely rational your decisions were to have kids.
There are so many worse criticisms you could level against a person who wanted to have kids than that they would care too much. Hopefully Syne won't turn-out a bunch of elitists snobs like I'm sure the rest of you are doing.
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: You guys need to find something better to do than make yourselves feel better about how awesomely rational your decisions were to have kids.
Really don't think that's what they're doing at all, dude
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: You guys need to find something better to do than make yourselves feel better about how awesomely rational your decisions were to have kids.
Really don't think that's what they're doing at all, dude
/edit
quote:There are so many worse criticisms you could level against a person who wanted to have kids than that they would care too much.
this too is bypassing the conflict entirely. don't parse their position down to 'syn would care too much' when the issue really comes down to statements that indicate that someone is not prepared to have children but wants to have them soon for very disagreeable stated reasons.
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And from what I've read from what Syne has been saying, she's put more effort in trying to understand effective methods of parenting than the majority of people do. Maybe Syne will never meet Hatrack's standards of "the right parent" but that doesn't mean she should never have kids. Frankly, to me it sounds like she couldn't be any worse than the average parent.
Also, if Syne was a Mormon, acting in the exact same way, I believe certain people would support her choices much more.
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quote:Maybe Syne will never meet Hatrack's standards of "the right parent" but that doesn't mean she should never have kids.
how many people here are saying she should never have kids?
They are telling her to not have kids provided she does not meet their standards for maturity. The implication is that if she never meets these standards, she should never have kids.
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1) Have a steady income, ideally one that provides decent healthcare. 2) Have a reliable support network of friends and family, if not a spouse. 3) Have forgiven her parents, and have moved beyond the desire to "fix" their mistakes with children of her own.
The third is deeper than it sounds. Syne wants kids but doesn't want a family; to me, that strongly suggests control issues.
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quote:Maybe Syne will never meet Hatrack's standards of "the right parent" but that doesn't mean she should never have kids.
how many people here are saying she should never have kids?
They are telling her to not have kids provided she does not meet their standards for maturity. The implication is that if she never meets these standards, she should never have kids.
That is a completely different implication than telling someone that they should never have kids. Like, entirely.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Maybe Syne will never meet Hatrack's standards of "the right parent" but that doesn't mean she should never have kids.
how many people here are saying she should never have kids?
They are telling her to not have kids provided she does not meet their standards for maturity. The implication is that if she never meets these standards, she should never have kids.
That is a completely different implication than telling someone that they should never have kids. Like, entirely.
That's not what my original statement you have quoted there said. Agreed, it was less clear than the second time, but it's still essentially the same, defining the parameters by which some people at Hatrack would feel Syne should never have kids.
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The hangup here (well, ONE of yours, anyway) is that it is an entirely sensible thing to say that people who are not fit to be a parent should not become a parent at that point in time, and the "if you never become a fit parent ever, then you should never be a parent" is derived from that. nobody here is suggesting that Syne will never be in a good position to be a parent, they're noting that her parental ideation appears consistently to be a bad idea and that they don't personally feel comfortable with it.
And this isn't even "hatrack's standards." We are not a monolithic block of judgment. You don't get an official Hatrack Seal of Parenting Approval that anyone is vying for. It is individual people who are making these declarations.
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I'm Mormon. I am not defending her because, and you did ask, she has posted continually about 1) her difficulties in finding and keeping even menial jobs; 2) her lack of a support system of any kind - I get the impression that she has no family and few if any friends; and 3) the function she wants a child to fill could be satisfied by a virtual pet.
I think talking about wanting a child is fine. Actually having one, though, is different, and there are a dozen red flags as to why such a situation would be bad for the kid.
It takes more than a determination not to hit them. Tom made a good list of the minimum, none of which Syn can provide.
The Mormon in me, ON TOP of all that, thinks that kids need two parents and that isn't a joke, and deliberately depriving a child of that is not a kindness.
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quote:Originally posted by jebus202: ... I was more talking about people who are not speaking up in her defence.
Yup. You pegged me. I am deliberately not speaking up in her defence because I have a secret soft-spot for Mormons.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Before Syne has kids, I would like her to:
1) Have a steady income, ideally one that provides decent healthcare. 2) Have a reliable support network of friends and family, if not a spouse. 3) Have forgiven her parents, and have moved beyond the desire to "fix" their mistakes with children of her own.
The third is deeper than it sounds. Syne wants kids but doesn't want a family; to me, that strongly suggests control issues.
Thats lovely, because you can also "like" a mint parfait and a pony. I believe this would be a more rational desire on your part seeing as short of physical actions being taken you have nothing to do with the matter
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Those are reasonable criteria. In fact, anyone who wants to take care of a kid and does NOT meet that criteria should seriously consider whether than have a kid's best interest at heart. A child's need for a stable home and sane and supported parents is very real.
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