quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I don't know that you've made your case in a way that deserves much of a answer, though. For instance, it took me about three seconds to convince myself that it could mean "I'm not sorry that I live in a state that was part of the Confederacy", and Scott has also offered alternative reasons for "Southern Pride."
There might be no reason for Southern Pride that elevates it beyond "I<3NY", sure, but we don't say that "I<3NY" only means "I love capitalism and anorexia." It's mainly just benign teamism.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm rolling my eyes at the flaming bigot who is posting. Some comments are too stupid and too indicative of a closed mind and determined ill will to waste time on.
I don't think it's fair to call Tom a bigot; his position is held by lots of people. There's a good reason for their perception.
He's wrong; Southern Pride can mean more than just what he's trying to fix it to mean. I've pointed out some examples of why I'm proud to be a Southerner.
I've enjoyed every place I've ever lived, and found kindness and compassion from strangers everywhere. But the South is home. Loving it, and being proud of other Southerners' accomplishments doesn't mean glossing over its problems.
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quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I think anyone who flies the confederate flag these days is either ignorant of or compliant with the vastly negative connotation it has towards blacks, and neither of these things is a good thing, but also that you don't know what you're talking about.
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The level of bigotry and ill will in this whole thread is a little breathtaking.
I wonder if perhaps some of the persistent attachment to the confederate flag is a reaction against Tom's kind of bigotry.
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The thread moved fast and I didn't see where Tom said the term has been co-opted before my post above.
That might be true, and there might be some unsavory connotations, but Tom was making a claim that it always means racist gun nut. That kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.
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quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
No. Why would you think that I would?
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quote:That might be true, and there might be some unsavory connotations, but Tom was making a claim that it always means racist gun nut. That kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.
I can't imagine why anyone who meant "Southern pride" in a way that didn't meant "racist gun nut" would use the term unless it was a conscious attempt to somehow reclaim the term.
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quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
A Chris Rock joke comes to mind.
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On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
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quote:I can't imagine why anyone who meant "Southern pride" in a way that didn't meant "racist gun nut" would use the term unless it was a conscious attempt to somehow reclaim the term.
You weren't aware that there were sincere, non-racist, non-NRA people that were proud of the South's cultural heritage?
Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people, Tom.
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quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
I don't get that either. In that Cold Mountain movie someone said, you're fighting so rich people can have slaves. That was kind of true.
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Much of the south in fact did not want to secede and especially did not want to fight a war. Jones County Mississippi actually seceded from the CSA after the war had started, and several hundred of its men lead by Newt Knight rebelled against the confederacy from within its own borders performing hit and run tactics on supply lines to hinder the military's already poor ability to supply troops.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I don't know that you've made your case in a way that deserves much of a answer, though. For instance, it took me about three seconds to convince myself that it could mean "I'm not sorry that I live in a state that was part of the Confederacy", and Scott has also offered alternative reasons for "Southern Pride."
There might be no reason for Southern Pride that elevates it beyond "I<3NY", sure, but we don't say that "I<3NY" only means "I love capitalism and anorexia." It's mainly just benign teamism.
"Southern Pride" as a concept, I can definitely see this for. The South has contributed plenty to be proud of and I know many people from the South who rightfully feel a sense of pride.
I don't know that much of these things really fall under the Confederate Flag though. I think very few people, in reference to the flag, as thinking of Tennessee Williams or barbecue ribs or Elvis Presley, etc. They are almost definitely not thinking of Martin Luther King, Jr. or of all the other brave Southerners who fought for civil rights. (They might be thinking of Jesse Helms, though.)
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: ... Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
Sure, if you insist Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:You weren't aware that there were sincere, non-racist, non-NRA people that were proud of the South's cultural heritage?
I'm aware that they'll tend to speak of being proud of their cultural heritage. And even then, they'll be slightly careful because "cultural heritage" is often a codeword itself.
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quote:In that Cold Mountain movie someone said, you're fighting so rich people can have slaves.
Read the book.
OK. But that movie was depressing as HELL. Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting? War sucks on both sides. Urg. I hate it.
But that bluegrass music in the movie was fantastic. Also that choral music. Black folks have also contributed a lot to southern culture and food, let's not forget that. Not to mention the music.
But the whole pride thing about the confederacy makes me go I don't think all of those folks are racist. I saw this rather cute guy in Braintree sporting a if you think this flag is racist you don't know history shirt. That guy was playing harmonica in the rain.
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quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
It's rooted in the period that came directly after the war. The antebellum period is often referred to as the "Moonlight and Magnolias" period. The narrative pressed after the war was that this was a time of peace, a simpler time of prosperity, where Southern paternalism had protected and lived in harmony with blacks, who liked being slaves, until those damned Yankees came and ruined everything.
The South wanted respect following the war, and this is where the "Lost Cause" mentality comes into play. They sold the north on the idea that they had differing equal ideas, and felt that there was no ideological defeat in their loss. The north, so interested in reconciliation and disturbed by accruing economic problems, went along with it with only a minimum of fuss from men like Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner, who were rabid anti-slavery pro-equality figures.
Life wasn't milk and honey for the middle class, but that didn't matter. It was an idealized time period. Think back to how Augustus Caesar used symbols of the old Roman Republic in his Empire to try and play on the romanticized feelings people had for this simpler time. When he took his full imperial title, it wasn't just emperor, it was Imperator, devi fili julio caesaro (father of the great Julius Caesar) pater patriai (father of the people, an old religious title), Tribunica podestes (hearkens back to the old office of Tribube, a position of the people) and there might have been a couple more. I used to have that totally memorized. But the point stands. It doesn't matter how things really were. People wanted to remember their "Moonlight and Magnolias" version, so that's the version that entered the public mindset.
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I think that there is a dramatic differance between the confederacy and southern pride. Never forget that blues came from the south, Muddy Waters, Roy Brown and B.B. King are all southerners and I would hate to dismiss thier contributions to the world because of the CSA.
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quote:I don't know that much of these things really fall under the Confederate Flag though.
Agreed.
I'm not ready to call someone whom I've never met 'racist,' though, just because he puts the Rebel flag on his truck's mudflaps. For all that everyone outside of the South condemns it, it has a different value set in the minds of many of those who use it.
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So it's kind of how people of Irish descent like me wax nostalgic about how we used to spend grand summer evenings trying to trap leprechauns on the Emerald Isle.
When we weren't starving, that is. ;-/
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quote:Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting?
Yes. Living in the South sucked during the war compared to the north, because of the actions of the government and neighbors. The Confederate government passed laws in the back half of the war that set different prices on food for families that had a family member in the army or not. It was an economic inventive to force families to pressure a male member into service, and it was highly successful.
Many men formed local militias under the Ranger Act, where they basically went off into the woods and mountains and were considered regular army, but never had to leave home. What they ended up doing in practice was raiding local towns for food and supplies, tormenting those that didn't leave their families to fight, and descended on towns in drunken hordes to cause mayhem. This was another reason why towns themselves often attempted to shame their men into service, because they'd rather that destruction be visited upon the Yankees than their neighbors. Eventually the Ranger Act was repealed because more soldiers were needed on the front, but bands of men still stayed in the woods and hills raiding towns.
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quote:Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting?
As far as I know, it was true on both sides. Don't forget, though, that the protagonist wasn't just "not fighting"; he was a deserter.
(I live about five miles from the place where the book begins.)
I think you would enjoy State of Jones which is about Jones county and Newt Knight, not getting off heroin. It would be a great title for a book of that subject though.
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It occurs to me that the cultural reasons given for Southern pride symbolized by the confederate flag can be at least in part if not mostly attributed to the black people who were subjugated under that flag.
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Little aside: A friend of mine who was a tour guide at Gettysburg when he was younger told me an interesting thing. The "Stars and Bars" flag we now consider "The Confederate Flag" was not the flag of the CSA. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It also didn't look like that. It was a square, not a rectangle.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Your "realization" is exactly what Tom's been saying all along. It has about the same value.
Would you mind if I asked you to respond to this directly, I had intended it towards you when I originally posted it.
quote: Would you still find the symbol to show independant thought and freedom if a Black-American displayed it? surely in the hands of a descendant of slavery it does not and has never meant freedom.
quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
people become enamored with an ideologically colored ideal of The Way It Used To Be And Should Be that's been pitched to them. It happens all the time.
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quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
people become enamored with an ideologically colored ideal of The Way It Used To Be And Should Be that's been pitched to them. It happens all the time.
I watch it happen in referance to the fifties, with the idea that "there were no gangs, cigarettes didnt give you cancer, people didnt divorce, teenagers didnt have babies and ofcourse politicians were trustworthy" its not always so blatantly silly but I see it nonetheless.
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AH: Your question doesn't match what I said. I said that when I have encoutered it in person, that is what it meant, according to the person flying it. I haven't ever encountered a black person who used it as their symbol.
So you are first asking me to imagine a situation I've never encountered, and then imagine the motivations for this imaginary person. You aren't going to get anything actually accurate or useful.
My first thought is that the person would have to be doing it for attention, one way or another.
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quote:It occurs to me that the cultural reasons given for Southern pride symbolized by the confederate flag can be at least in part if not mostly attributed to the black people who were subjugated under that flag.
As far as I can tell, no one has said that the confederate flag symbolizes the cultural reasons given for Southern Pride.
So...I'm not sure what you're talking about.
(And I'll point out that the cultural achievements were not brought about solely by a single race, but by multiple races slam-dancing together.)
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Most people I knew who bought into the Southern Pride culture (when I was growing up in rural Arkansas) mostly seemed to relate it to a love of trucks and deer hunting. I'd appreciate it if "gun nuts" weren't automatically connected with hunting enthusiasts. My family had guns, and went hunting, yet "gun nut" would not describe them even a little bit. They somehow managed to not be crazy neo-cons preparing for the apocalypse. They just liked a good venison steak.
The historically racist connotations of the confederate flag are there, and are tied into the culture, and I'm not going to deny that. No one in the south has pride over the bonnie blue flag or any of the other flags used by the CSA, for example, probably because no one remembers them any more. Which is unfortunate, since the song is so darn catchy.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: AH: Your question doesn't match what I said. I said that when I have encoutered it in person, that is what it meant, according to the person flying it. I haven't ever encountered a black person who used it as their symbol.
I understood your statement about the flag to mean people doing thier own thing without needing anyones approval (abstract clothing enembles etc.) but you were somewhat obscure in that post so I had to guess. But I would ask two differant questions of then, what do you think the flag would mean to a Black-American today and what would be your assumption of intent if you were to see a descendant of slavery with the confederate flag without context?
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I saw this rather cute guy in Braintree sporting a if you think this flag is racist you don't know history shirt.
Oh? The deal is really that the flag is racist in that it has severe and unavoidable racist connotations. It's the flag of a breakaway confederacy whose rebellion was created and driven in large part by the desire to protect slavery and preserve their slavery-based economic systems. The confederacy itself was racist and intended to enshrine the enslavement of black people as a good and natural thing. As a result, if someone is wearing the confederate flag as a t-shirt or flying it in front of their house, it WILL make most black people and civil rights activists uncomfortable, for good reason. As I mentioned, anyone who displays those flags is either ignorant of that fact, or knows about it is choosing to display it in spite of the fact that they know it has racist connotations. People in either category are likely in addition to have a severely skewed, historically revisionist interpretation of the Confederacy and probably subscribe to the notion that the breakaway of the confederacy had nothing to do with protecting slavery.
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Scott, you said the flag was "an enormous symbol of regional and cultural pride" when Tom asked what that meant beyond racism and guns, you replied that you are, "proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature."
Yes, races "slam-dancing together" means that food, music and literature would not be what they are without one of those races. To be proud of Southern culture, one must (even if they don't know it) be proud of black people. Displaying a flag under which those people were oppressed is an odd way to show pride in them.
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I don't think Scott's defending the flag, per se, but rather the idea that there are parts of the South worth being proud of.
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I remember the conversation a little differently. Mr. Squicky noted that he doubts that people who fly the Stars-n-Bars think of Southern culture in terms of literature, food, and music; I agreed.
When I said that the flag was enormous symbol of cultural and regional pride, I was simply saying that lots of people look at it as a symbol of their heritage. NOT that *I* think it's a positive symbol-- look at my first post in this thread. Obviously, I recognize that the flag has serious negative connotations.
Like I said-- the south is better represented by a flag with Paula Dean's face on it than by the Confederate Flag.
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Dude, you guys can do a lot better than Paula Deen. Dolly Parton would be a better and more appropriate flag than that.
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