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Author Topic: Kaczynski's death
Szymon
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Head of my country, Lech Kaczynski died in a plane crush. On board with him were most important officials in Poland. They were to commemorate the death of thousands of Polish officers killed in Katyn forest 70 years ago.

10th of april truly is the worst date in our history.

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Bella Bee
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This is really horrible. Some of the people I live with at the moment are Polish, and they're all out today. It's going to be terrible when they get home and discover that this has happened.

To you and everyone else, my sympathies.

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Orincoro
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My best wishes to our neighbors to the north in their difficult hour.
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SenojRetep
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That is tragic. My condolences to you and your countrymen, Szymon.
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Blayne Bradley
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It never ceases to amaze me just how many tragedies in modern history can be attributed to human error rather then malicious intent.
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Szymon
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Thanks. Where are you from, Orincoro?
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Lyrhawn
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Not to be the conspiracy theorist here but, are we 100% sure that it was human error and not malicious intent? Russia has been pretty pissy with Poland for quite some time now because of their cooperation with the US missile shield program, among other things. And the plane appears to have been recently overhauled, which makes maintenance an unlikely culprit. I'd rather it was just an accident than on purpose, people will get over a tragedy a lot quicker than a murder.

Regardless, you have my sympathies and condolences Szymon.

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Szymon
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Lyrhawn, even altough our relations arent perfect, I am quite sure Russia wouldnt dare, this is unthinkable. It would certainly lead to war, probably even world war, for Poland is in NATO.

It is an amazing thing though, whats happening right now in Poland. All of our politicians cry, mourn their yesterdays opponents. I personally didny like Kaczynski, now I have forgotten why. My friend's father died in that crash.

Jesus, it so so sad.

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Blayne Bradley
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It appears to be thus far pretty clear that the pilot ignored ground controls request to land in either Minsk or Moscow and tried to land when it was foggy around Smolensk.
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Kama
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what Blayne said.

Lyrhawn, that really does sound like a conspiracy theory there [Razz]

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Samprimary
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That's a pretty remarkable power vacuum. I'm amazed by the news. What a tragedy.

Kaczynski was that hardcore catholic guy, right?

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Szymon
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A non-conforimist, patriot and catholic. In that order:) Maybe even a nationalist.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
It never ceases to amaze me just how many tragedies in modern history can be attributed to human error rather then malicious intent.

I am glad that more people make mistakes rather than being murderers, myself. [Wink]
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Destineer
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I thought this was going to be about the Unabomber.
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SoaPiNuReYe
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Ugh. Why put all your officials in one plane?
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Lyrhawn
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We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.
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scifibum
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I'm sorry Szymon. Terrible. [Frown]
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Kama
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what's the alternative? send 10 planes? No-one could afford that.
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jebus202
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From my understanding it hasn't created a huge power vacuum within the government, because none of the ministers, including the the Prime Minister, were aboard the flight. Sounds like it's really the military that's been hit hardest by this.

In any case it still sucks for the Poles.

(And on another note: Hi Kama)

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.

it would be like having the president, vp, the entire cabinet including sec of defense and sec of state, the chief of staff, the military chiefs, and some congressional leaders all on one plane.
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Kama
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[Wave] jebus

quote:
it would be like having the president, vp, the entire cabinet including sec of defense and sec of state, the chief of staff, the military chiefs, and some congressional leaders all on one plane.
well, no. The government is intact. And the president in Poland does not have the same amount of power the American president has.

indeed, it is the military that was hit the hardest.

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aspectre
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No, the US President is both the head of state and the head of government.
In Poland and most other parliamentary republics, an elected president is only the head of state -- ie fills a role closer to that of QueenElizabethII than that of BarackObama -- while the PrimeMinister is the head of government.

From everything I've read of or by the Kaczynski twins, it is FAR more likely that the incident was near-equivalent to a suicide-murder; with Lech as the mad bomber and the pilot allowing himself to be ordered to play the bomb.
Intentional, definitely NOT -- but an accident in the sense of an alcoholic crashing a high-powered car at top speed cuz he was way too drunk to walk.

[ April 10, 2010, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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Itsame
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I thought this was about the unabomber.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.

Heads of state, yes, perhaps we do that now and again on Air Force One. But putting our entire military command in one command is strategically unsound, and I seriously doubt the U.S. Government would even consider doing that.

And, quite honestly it is Air Force One: the single safest airplane in the sky. There's a big difference between that and a "standard issue" Tupolev 154.

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SoaPiNuReYe
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quote:
Originally posted by Kama:
what's the alternative? send 10 planes? No-one could afford that.

Well its better than having this happen. The alternative is not having all of your officials in one place. The same thing applies when you have meetings in buildings on the ground, where a single bomb could cause the same effect. The only buildings in America where this philosophy doesn't apply are the White House and Capital Hill, and those are two of the most secure sites in America.
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malanthrop
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It is horrible. I'm sorry for your country.

I would like to suggest that they will never again put so many officials in one vulnerable place but "never again" pledges fade within a decade.

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Blayne Bradley
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That sounds like a cheap political shot.
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King of Men
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Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Szymon:
Thanks. Where are you from, Orincoro?

I'm from the states, but I'm now a fairly long term Czech resident.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.

*cough katyn massacre and historical context cough*
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
That sounds like a cheap political shot.

It isn't a cheap political shot. The greatest tragedies of a nation are forgotten quite quicky. I didn't specify any particular situation. Do you have a particular situation in mind? Time heals all wounds.
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Blayne Bradley
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If you hadn't spent 6 months raving like a complete lune I would believe that, as it stands you did and thus I don't.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I'm sorry Szymon. Terrible. [Frown]

Agreed.
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Kama
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quote:
The alternative is not having all of your officials in one place.
but we didn't! we had all of the military command one one place, which is stupid, I agree, but no-one from the government.
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Kama
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also, from what I just read, according to military procedures, chiefs and their deputies cannot travel together. this procedure has been followed.
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Szymon
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Kama, you know how many planes our government has? Two, till yesterday. One right now. We have military transport aircrafts, but thats not too representative, is it?

Kama is right, President, about twenty members of the parliament, and some deputies. Sounds like a normal delegation to me. If it werent for those generals! Chief of staff! Chiefs of ground, air, special forces and navy. Unbelivable. They COULD use military aircrafts.

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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.

*cough katyn massacre and historical context cough*
Well yes, but just at the moment Poland is in the unusually favourable situation of not being at war or occupied by foreign troops. They have the luxury of time to promote some lower-ranking officers and whatnot. It's a tragedy for the dead and their families, but for the nation of Poland it is at most a rather unpleasant shock.
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Orincoro
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I realize that your flippant attitude about the deaths of core members of another country's government seem to you to be something other than chauvinist hand-waving at the poor damaged people of central Europe, but from where I'm sitting it comes off as more than just a little insulting. Perhaps you are not, despite your great intellect, acquainted with the real life social consequences of such an event, and choose to minimize your estimations of how it might affect people emotionally to have a number of key leaders wiped out in a single event. Perhaps once you've attempted to fully consider that aspect of this tragedy, you will stop talking as if you are in command of all the factors involved here.

Also you might then stop buying the spin that the mainstream media has already slapped on this event because according to them, anything that happens here is inconsequential to the rest of the developed world, and Central Europe is just the middle of a bigger chessboard, with the more important pieces elsewhere. It's an insulting attitude and you have no idea, frankly, the effect that it has on people who live here.

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King of Men
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My reaction would have been the same had, let's say, Obama, three top-ranking generals, and some high-level people from the Pentagon died in a plane crash.
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Orincoro
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Yeah, well then you're not as smart as I thought.
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Szymon
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
I realize that your flippant attitude about the deaths of core members of another country's government seem to you to be something other than chauvinist hand-waving at the poor damaged people of central Europe(...)
It's an insulting attitude and you have no idea, frankly, the effect that it has on people who live here.

I obviously am far from being impartial here, but I think you have a point. We Poles, despite being on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain for 40 years, are not that different to the rest of Europe. Sure we have a lot to catch up, but trust me, we certainly are not the third world. We had a constitution before any other country in Europe, even France, just after the US. I have Internet in my home since 1997 or sth. I feel no different from you. I wear jeans and collect Hard Rock Cafe t-shirts all around the world. You know what I mean? And every weekend play paintball with my friends.

And we are truly sad about the death of our President, the First Lady, who now seem irreplacable. They always were people, never just the positions they held.

I dont know if I made my point;)

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Szymon
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And, we have two HRCs in Poland! [Smile]
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Kama
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quote:
Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
um, not sure you realise, but they were human beings.
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jebus202
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Ironic that Kama would reveal that Poland doesn't even use androids for their politicians yet right after Szymon defended how advanced the country is.

Ireland is somewhere in between, we're not up to androids yet, but we have replaced our politicians with above-average intelligence chimps.

So far things are running much smoother, unemployment and banana taxes are at their lowest ever.

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Kama
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the androids are still in the testing phase, so far we only let the run regional governments.
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Bokonon
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Sure, is that why the sent you to infiltrate the UN, K.A.M.A???

[Smile]

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Kama
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EU, silly.
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by Kama:
quote:
Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
um, not sure you realise, but they were human beings.
Perhaps you are missing the distinction I was making? In their capacity as officers and whatnot, these people are replaceable; and that's the capacity in which most Poles knew them. They can hardly have met face-to-face with any large fraction of the Polish population. As human beings they are indeed irreplaceable, but only their immediate circle - family and friends - knew them as such. Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
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Orincoro
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:sigh: Dude, what are you trying to prove here?
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Kama
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are you Polish? Have you been out on the streets of Warsaw when the casket with the President's body was being transported home? Have a look at the photos below and then tell me again that this is not a tragedy for the Poles:

http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/zdjecie/2224042,3,68,30958,Droga-do-Palacu-Prezydenckiego.html

http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/zdjecie/2224117,3,54,30958,noc-przed-Palacem-Prezydenckim.html

http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/zdjecie/2223999,3,87,30958,Warszawa-w-dniu-katastrofy.html

http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/zdjecie/2223673,3,158,30958,Kondukt-zalobny.html

http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/zdjecie/2223155,3,312,30958,wieczor-10042010-pod-Palacem-Prezydenckim.html

and let me quote Szymon's post above, which you also seem to have missed:

quote:
And we are truly sad about the death of our President, the First Lady, who now seem irreplacable. They always were people, never just the positions they held.

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